4:34 "Beat them"

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #30 - April 01, 2009, 03:12 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 01, 2009, 01:07 PM
Tapping them is bizarre and ridiculous!

The Qur'an quite clearly allows a man to hit his wife - end of story.

But good luck getting that through to modern Muslims.

I concentrated on the absurdity of tapping in my video coz I know most of my viewers would reject the hitting bit - most Muslims are in denial of the truth of their religion.

If they weren't they couldn't maintain their faith.

Aye, I recall that from your vid. You even demonstrated it with a handkerchief or something, to very amusing effect. The verse itself seems like an escalating scale of tactics to force your wife to obey you. If she flounces around batting her eyelashes at other men you stop talking to her, you stop sleeping with her, and if she STILL doesn't obey you you... lightly tap her with a stick? That's going to do a lot to correct her behaviour, isn't it? It's even obvious from the context Muhammad meant a good thwack to her face to teach her a lesson.

Despicable.

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #31 - April 01, 2009, 04:54 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on April 01, 2009, 03:12 PM
Quote from: Hassan on April 01, 2009, 01:07 PM
Tapping them is bizarre and ridiculous!

The Qur'an quite clearly allows a man to hit his wife - end of story.

But good luck getting that through to modern Muslims.

I concentrated on the absurdity of tapping in my video coz I know most of my viewers would reject the hitting bit - most Muslims are in denial of the truth of their religion.

If they weren't they couldn't maintain their faith.

Aye, I recall that from your vid. You even demonstrated it with a handkerchief or something, to very amusing effect. The verse itself seems like an escalating scale of tactics to force your wife to obey you. If she flounces around batting her eyelashes at other men you stop talking to her, you stop sleeping with her, and if she STILL doesn't obey you you... lightly tap her with a stick? That's going to do a lot to correct her behaviour, isn't it? It's even obvious from the context Muhammad meant a good thwack to her face to teach her a lesson.

i thought you did it pretty well, and the video was the best medium to show this message. If we ever do an Islamic Monty Python, call it Monty Mohammedon, my vote is that you get lead role on the casting couch!

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #32 - April 01, 2009, 05:07 PM

Even if the Quran does say to beat them lighly or whatever, its still puzzling how many muslims misinterpret that verse, and physically abuse their wives, with the presumable permission of god. Should not god rather have said in clear cut words what he meant, rather than talk in puzzles?

Should not god as an omnipotent/all-knowing being have forseen how easily this particular verse can be misinterpreted? No matter how you view it, its a loose-loose situation for muslims/Islam.
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #33 - April 01, 2009, 06:05 PM

Quote from: Balthier on April 01, 2009, 05:07 PM
Even if the Quran does say to beat them lighly

There is no lightly in the original Quran, nor is there any lightly specified in any of the earlier translations, well upto the modern era.For almost 14 centuries-beat simply meant beat. Yusuf Ali, clearly uncomfortable with the instruction of "beat" added lightly. Allah didn't add lightly, at least not in the Quran.

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #34 - April 01, 2009, 06:09 PM

Quote from: Balthier on April 01, 2009, 05:07 PM
Even if the Quran does say to beat them lighly or whatever, its still puzzling how many muslims misinterpret that verse, and physically abuse their wives, with the presumable permission of god. Should not god rather have said in clear cut words what he meant, rather than talk in puzzles?

Should not god as an omnipotent/all-knowing being have forseen how easily this particular verse can be misinterpreted? No matter how you view it, its a loose-loose situation for muslims/Islam.

The verse opens the door to beating the wife. Once the door is opened to beating the mother as a method of discipline, then the door opens to beat everyone else for discipline.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #35 - April 01, 2009, 06:14 PM

Another thing which just came to my mind, when I read this Hadith concerning wife beating:

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
"Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

Muhammad in numerous Hadiths as well as Allah\Muhammad in the Quran unequivocally permitted wife beating. While in this Hadith Muhammad tells men not to beat their wife\wives too harshly, clearly slaves are allowed to be flogged mercilessly.

And many Muslim apologists claim that Islam came to end slavery & taught humane treatment towards slaves!

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #36 - April 01, 2009, 06:32 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 01, 2009, 06:14 PM
Another thing which just came to my mind, when I read this Hadith concerning wife beating:

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
"Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

Muhammad in numerous Hadiths as well as Allah\Muhammad in the Quran unequivocally permitted wife beating. While in this Hadith Muhammad tells men not to beat their wife\wives too harshly, clearly slaves are allowed to be flogged mercilessly.

And many Muslim apologists claim that Islam came to end slavery & taught humane treatment towards slaves!

Doesn't this hadith give permission to flog her ass?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #37 - April 01, 2009, 07:56 PM

Quote from: Rashna on April 01, 2009, 06:14 PM
Another thing which just came to my mind, when I read this Hadith concerning wife beating:

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, #132
"Narrated Zam'a, "The prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."

Muhammad in numerous Hadiths as well as Allah\Muhammad in the Quran unequivocally permitted wife beating. While in this Hadith Muhammad tells men not to beat their wife\wives too harshly, clearly slaves are allowed to be flogged mercilessly.

And many Muslim apologists claim that Islam came to end slavery & taught humane treatment towards slaves!

Maybe he meant you should not flog your wife AND then sex her in the evening...
But it's ok to just flog without sexing her afterwards :S

But with a slave, you can flog her and screw her right away.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #38 - April 02, 2009, 11:09 AM

Quote from: King Tut on April 01, 2009, 12:29 PM
In any case, I think it just has a symbolic meaning, like tapping your wife over the head with a rolled up news paper, to set some decline. There are no steps to it, you can just do it often Muslims say you must first talk then not sleep with her and lastly beat her. Moreover, there is only one recorded historical account of Mohammed hitting his wife and that is when he stuck Aisha in the chest, I don't think beating women was a common practice or even part of early Muslim culture I think predominately if was frowned upon to beat your wife as there are few hadiths which are attributed to Mohammed which suggest a man should honour his wife.

Yes, some hadith like her having to give ass even if busy with food on the stove or riding a camel. Or is it the one about is he would ask a woman to prostate to anyone but allah it would be to their husband. Or is it the one where if the woman was festering pus off her husband it still would not be enough. Or when you buy a servant or get a wife or buy a mule you have to repeat the same sayiing "may allah pretect me from their evil".

As that logo said, 4:34 is for fuckwits.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #39 - April 05, 2009, 03:37 AM

How many Muslims could you find who will admit that Koran 4:34 says unequivocally that men are to beat their "women" ?

The vast majority?

A slim majority?

A large minority?

Fewer than you could count on the right hand of a thief in Karachi?

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #40 - April 05, 2009, 10:47 AM

Quote from: Hesperado on April 05, 2009, 03:37 AM
How many Muslims could you find who will admit that Koran 4:34 says unequivocally that men are to beat their "women" ? The vast majority?A slim majority?A large minority?Fewer than you could count on the right hand of a thief in Karachi?

I am still waiting for your answer to my last post? And again this issue about how many Muslims you believe are already defunct of common humanity.

The majority of Muslims I come across nowadays are what I would classify as apologists.

I was in fact in the company of Muslims yesterday discussing the same issue with them, and they did not even know it was in the Quran (Muslims stick to the good things they can relate & agree to, and do not spend time discussing these contentious issue, unless we, the media or an extremist bring it up). After they accepted what it said, they then interpreted "hit" as tapping on the back!

To specifically answer your question

Quote from: Hesperado on April 05, 2009, 03:37 AM
How many Muslims could you find who will admit that Koran 4:34 says unequivocally that men are to beat their "women" ?

In the sense that you describe, a very small minority. Less than 50% even know it is in there, and those that do, usually assume
i) its a light tap
ii) relative to a specific date & context
iii) incorrect translation, and find some other text to counter this claim

In fact the ones that I have come across that agree with it, are the types of people that would have hit their wives without religion! I wonder if you had been a Muslim, whether you would have chosen to be a salafi.

In fact that may be why you are so worried. You have no need to worry as the majority of people in the world do not share your personality type, and think more like us.

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #41 - April 05, 2009, 11:55 AM

The fact that that verse requires explanations and "context" and tells us that God obviously couldnt forsee the future and know that women were going to be beaten for any, every, and all....and simply for no reason...based only on that supposedly ambigous verse. It seems clear cut enough to the ones that promote and follow through with its allowance...but needs explaining and context enjoined for those that cant come to terms with this permission to do violence against wives...and a loving and merciful God.
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #42 - April 05, 2009, 05:10 PM

Quote from: Baal on April 02, 2009, 11:09 AM
Quote from: King Tut on April 01, 2009, 12:29 PM
In any case, I think it just has a symbolic meaning, like tapping your wife over the head with a rolled up news paper, to set some decline. There are no steps to it, you can just do it often Muslims say you must first talk then not sleep with her and lastly beat her. Moreover, there is only one recorded historical account of Mohammed hitting his wife and that is when he stuck Aisha in the chest, I don't think beating women was a common practice or even part of early Muslim culture I think predominately if was frowned upon to beat your wife as there are few hadiths which are attributed to Mohammed which suggest a man should honour his wife.

Yes, some hadith like her having to give ass even if busy with food on the stove or riding a camel. Or is it the one about is he would ask a woman to prostate to anyone but allah it would be to their husband. Or is it the one where if the woman was festering pus off her husband it still would not be enough. Or when you buy a servant or get a wife or buy a mule you have to repeat the same sayiing "may allah pretect me from their evil".

As that logo said, 4:34 is for fuckwits.

Yeah I actually don't have a problem with the give me sex when I want hadith. I know I am bad! lol

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #43 - April 05, 2009, 05:48 PM

Peruvian,

This siwaak thing is mentioned in other tafsirs....(not ibn kathir).

But most interpreters (INCLUDING TABARI) agree that beating should not break bones, leave scars, etc....(so, tapping is dismissible here), a husband could beat up his wife without leaving scars, and without miswak...!!

It's simple:

- interpreters agree on the above, backing that with many hadiths..

- interpreters mentioned the siwaak part....(with a hadith)..

I go with the former, cuz:

of its Ijma3 (consensus of scholars), + hadiths being authentic,

The hadith used to back up (miswakking) ain't even among those complied by Al-Albani..

+ ain't the miswakking still humiliating, think it is....

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #44 - April 05, 2009, 05:59 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 31, 2009, 10:23 AM
As far as I'm aware al-Tabari is not considered 100% reliable as it's sources are not properly checked. Also the Quran and hadiths never tell you to use a siwaak, they just tell you to beat her (lightly). The concept of tapping them just seems bizarre and ridiculous to me.

============

BTW, he ain't reliable when using/narrating some hadiths, but most Muslims who rely on tafsirs hold him in high regards and revere his opinions.

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George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Maryam Namazie
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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #45 - April 05, 2009, 09:47 PM

Quote from: King Tut on April 05, 2009, 05:10 PM
Yeah I actually don't have a problem with the give me sex when I want hadith. I know I am bad! lol

Because you couldn't get it any other way.

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Re: 4:34 "Beat them"
Reply #46 - April 06, 2009, 04:14 AM

If Allah said "beat her" in the Quran and figured, oh... we'll explain it doesn't mean that later, somewhere else, then he is a stupid asshole.

I choose to believe he is not.

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