Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


German nationalist party ...
Yesterday at 10:31 AM

New Britain
February 17, 2025, 11:51 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 15, 2025, 04:00 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 14, 2025, 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 13, 2025, 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: What is the meaning of this verse?

 (Read 3950 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • What is the meaning of this verse?
     OP - April 08, 2009, 09:27 PM

    23:115 Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (Pickthall)

    Who is this "we" and "us"? I thought that only Allah was the creator.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #1 - April 08, 2009, 09:32 PM

    Pluralis maiestatis? Cheesy

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #2 - April 08, 2009, 09:33 PM

    Pluralis maiestatis? Cheesy


    I didn't realise the "royal we" was in use at this time!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #3 - April 08, 2009, 09:34 PM

    No, the other way round.  The royals here suffer from a God complex.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #4 - April 08, 2009, 10:02 PM

    I was always told two diffrent things concerning "we" and "us":

    1) "We" and "Us" refers to God. But if it does, wouldn't it be referring to a polytheist religion?

    2)   I've also been told, it's been misinterpreted when it was translated from Arabic to English. But the finny thing is, you find this "we and "us" in all English translated Quran, NOT just one or two.


    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #5 - April 08, 2009, 10:16 PM

    3) In those days, they were used to referring to God in the plural and became part of the accepted language back then?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #6 - April 08, 2009, 10:57 PM

    4) You need to learn arabic before you can REALLLY understand Allah.

    Because Allah is pretty racist and favors the Arabic language over languages from other nations that has been around for much longer...

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #7 - April 08, 2009, 10:58 PM

    That's the majestic plural as mentioned above. I don't know if that existed during that time, but it probably did. Maybe worth researching for Arabic speakers.
    This topic reminds me of some weird verses where Allah uses We and I to refer to himself in the same verse. Muslims are aware of this and in the usual "Allah's word can't err"-fashion, they declared it a wonderful feature of the Qur'an - probably by the early Islamic scholars. It even has a name, it's called iltifat (which interestingly enough means "compliment" in Turkish.)

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #8 - April 09, 2009, 07:36 AM

    5) Allah is schizophrenic

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #9 - April 09, 2009, 07:53 AM

    Technically I think you mean multiple personality disorder but hey, the dude's god. He's allowed to have as many personalities as he wants so there.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #10 - April 09, 2009, 08:07 AM

    Even the bible uses plural for God for instance:

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
    Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language
    Isiaih 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?

    Either it was common in those days to pluralise God, though its not always the case, or it all got mixed up with other traditions which had many gods.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #11 - April 09, 2009, 08:19 AM

    23:115 Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (Pickthall)

    Who is this "we" and "us"? I thought that only Allah was the creator.


    Busted! The supremely narcissistic Narcissist Allah who claims time & again that He's the only God, calls Himself  "subhan- wa- tala"(Allah is supreme, has no companions & no son) & can't stand idols of other supposed deities does have a companion hidden somewhere, working with Him, & Allah hasn't let that guy\gal receive their just due all these years! evil

    On a serious note, the "we" is probably "Al & Mo", the dastly duo! Why Allah even urges guests not to linger in Mo's house longer than neccessary & not to speak to his wives without curtains between them!

    Quran 033.053
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity.

    There are sooo many verses in the Quran where Allah asks people to obey Muhammad, so if He uses "we" its probably for Mo:

    "Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have the most beautiful pattern of conduct"
    (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21)
       
     
    "Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah"
    (Surah An-Nisa 4:80),

    "But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission?
    (Sura An-Nisa 4:65)
    and : 
       
    "It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray"
    (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36)

     And remember the day when the wrongdoer will bite at his hand and say: Oh! Would that I had taken the path of the Messenger
    (Surah Al-Furqan 25:27)

    On the day the faces will be tossed about in the fire, they will say: ?Woe to us! Would that we had obeyed Allaah and his Messenger?
    (Surah Az-Zukhruf 43:67)

    Whoever obeys Allaah and his Messenger will be admitted to gardens beneath which rivers flow to live there (forever), and that will be the great achievement
    (Surah An-Nisa 4:13)

    Of course, it might be a mistranslation.



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #12 - April 09, 2009, 08:23 AM

    It's the old "royal plural", at least in the case of the OT. Remember this is the King James version you are quoting there. The language is rather pompous and archaic.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #13 - April 09, 2009, 08:42 AM

    On a serious note, the "we" is probably "Al & Mo", the dastly duo!

    I dont think this is an option, particularly in relation to the quote supplied here i.e.

    23:115 Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (Pickthall)

    Muhammed was never purported to be involved in the creation of man, only Allah, so who's we?  I guess it can only be one of the 5 options listed, unless we can think of another.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #14 - April 09, 2009, 08:47 AM

    Does classical Arabic have the "royal plural"? From memory ancient Hebrew did, which is why it occurs in the OT. Arabic and Hebrew are closely related languages.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #15 - April 09, 2009, 08:48 AM

    On a serious note, the "we" is probably "Al & Mo", the dastly duo!

    I dont think this is an option, particularly in relation to the quote supplied here i.e.

    23:115 Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (Pickthall)

    Muhammed was never purported to be involved in the creation of man, only Allah, so who's we?  I guess it can only be one of the 5 options listed, unless we can think of another.


    Yep you're right- Mo wasn't a Creator, so I guess I'll go with your option 5- Allah is schizophrenic, or wait for Baal or Emerald to clarify about classical Arabic.  Wink

    Gosh this Allah is  brutish, misogynistic, genocidal,homophobic, narcissistic & now schizophrenic too!  Huh?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #16 - April 09, 2009, 08:53 AM

    Same as Yahweh.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #17 - April 09, 2009, 09:00 AM

    There is also no consistency of use, as I am sure there are sections in the Quran where he refers to himself as I.  So it appears God is also confused, or has poor literacy skills.  

    In either case it again shows this is not a perfect book written by an infallible creator.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #18 - April 09, 2009, 10:06 AM

    Same as Yahweh.


    Well, that conclusively proves Muslims were right when they claimed that Yahweh & Allah is the same!  Wink

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: What is the meaning of this verse?
     Reply #19 - April 09, 2009, 11:13 AM

    Here are some examples of what I mentioned earlier, where pronouns switch from plural to singular or vice versa, all in the same verse.

    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    21:25: Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.

    29:8: We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did.

    32:13: If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

    While doing a search for these verses I found some very strange ones in surah 70:

    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    70:38: Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?
    70:39: By no means! For We have created them out of the (base matter) they know!
    70:40: Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly-
    70:41: Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not to be defeated (in Our Plan).

    The verse 70:40 is really weird, it looks like it could be one of those verses where Allah forgot to write "say", because it starts by swearing by the Allmighty, but then it continues by saying something which only makes sense when uttered by Allah. I guess Allah really does swear by himself. First he uses a singular pronoun, and then he continues with the majestic plural telling us how mighty he is. That's one fucked up verse right there.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »