Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender

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- ned
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #30 - April 16, 2009, 09:34 PM

Quote from: Zaephon on April 16, 2009, 07:49 PM
It is ironic, when you consider how some historians cite the decadent influence of the Orient as the root cause of the fall of the Roman Empire

And one could also make a good case that the Ottoman Empire had become similarly decadent anyway. Not to mention the entire culture of concubinage and sex slavery that Muhammad and his companions themselves partook in!

Quote from: Zaephon on April 16, 2009, 07:49 PM
For me, the West is superior to the Islamic world in every aspect imaginable. Who said that hedonism is evil, to begin with? It is the natural inclination of all human beings.

We'll probably have to disagree on this. I find that the rabidly consumerist lifestyle of many people in the West is not only psychologically very unhealthy but also a ridiculously selfish waste of money in a world where children are suffering from malnutrition and living in poverty.

Quote from: Zaephon on April 16, 2009, 07:49 PM
I have to agree that modern art is bullshit, though.

This point was driven home to me when I read Frithjof Schuon's "Art from the Sacred to the Profane: East and West". There is something in traditional religious art -- a quality of grandeur, of nobility, of awe and mystery -- that is simply missing from so much of this deconstructive, nihilistic, meaningless modern and postmodern art.
- Tlaloc
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #31 - April 16, 2009, 09:37 PM

We have been constantly warned about the "decadence of western/european customs" since about the early middle ages... yet we europeans live in a way less violent and dangerous society than back then.

How could moral degeneration lead to improved civility?
I smell reactionary religious propaganda

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- ned
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #32 - April 16, 2009, 09:44 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on April 16, 2009, 09:37 PM
We have been constantly warned about the "decadence of western/european customs" since about the early middle ages... yet we europeans live in a way less violent and dangerous society than back then.

I think perhaps one shouldn't throw the phrase "The West" around flippantly anymore than one should use the phrase "The Islamic world" superficially. There are many Western countries and I think the criticism of consumerism and materialism applies most powerfully to the United States. Many European countries -- the Scandinavian countries come to mind -- have evolved into welfare states and do in fact espouse a very developed sense of social responsibility.

If I already knew a European language I would probably be immigrating to Europe.
- Tlaloc
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #33 - April 16, 2009, 09:49 PM

Quote from: ned on April 16, 2009, 09:34 PM
This point was driven home to me when I read Frithjof Schuon's "Art from the Sacred to the Profane: East and West". There is something in traditional religious art -- a quality of grandeur, of nobility, of awe and mystery -- that is simply missing from so much of this deconstructive, nihilistic, meaningless modern and postmodern art.

The main difference I see between classical art and modern art is that modern art has gained popularity by advocating that "anything can be art - anyone can be an artist", while the classical idea of art required abiding to certain rules of aesthetics, which in turn meant that artists actually had to be both creative in the abstract and very skilled in the practical world.

Classical arts -> strict rules -> few artists -> rare art pieces -> higher demand/offer ratio -> higher value
Modern art -> loose rules -> artists everywhere -> art everywhere -> lower demand/offer ratio -> lower value

Ironically, I think that the driving force behind modern art is that "it's all about the meaning". What the artist supposedly wanted to communicate seems more important that what the art piece appears to actually be.

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- Tlaloc
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #34 - April 16, 2009, 09:57 PM

Quote from: ned on April 16, 2009, 09:44 PM
Quote from: Tlaloc on April 16, 2009, 09:37 PM
We have been constantly warned about the "decadence of western/european customs" since about the early middle ages... yet we europeans live in a way less violent and dangerous society than back then.

I think perhaps one shouldn't throw the phrase "The West" around flippantly anymore than one should use the phrase "The Islamic world" superficially. There are many Western countries and I think the criticism of consumerism and materialism applies most powerfully to the United States. Many European countries -- the Scandinavian countries come to mind -- have evolved into welfare states and do in fact espouse a very developed sense of social responsibility.

If I already knew a European language I would probably be immigrating to Europe.

It's not all about the USA.
People saw extreme decadence in the Renaissance, then the Baroque era, then in the French Revolution and the age of Enlightenment, then in Napoleon, then in the 19th century, then colonialism, and so on...

Every "change" in European culture has been labeled morally wrong and decadent... yet our condition has improved considerably.
Now it's the turn of the USA. Consumerism and materialism? It was probably just as bad during the Roman Empire. Or when cults and banks and workers guilds waged economical-political-religious wars against each other in late medieval and early renaissance Italy. Yet things kept improving

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- osmanthus
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Re: Abdal Hakim-Murad and Gender
Reply #35 - April 16, 2009, 10:08 PM

I remember a while back somebody had a wonderful quote from a person bemoaning decadence and moral decay and predicting the collapse of society. The quote was from Sumerian or Assyrian times.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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