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 Topic: The problems with Aisha being 18?

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  • The problems with Aisha being 18?
     OP - April 24, 2009, 09:20 AM
    I've seen more and more muslims using the argument, but it doesn't fit considering she was very immature when they married (playing with dolls, etc). Someone on this forum mentioned there were mathematical problems with this age too (I think it was Baal). Can someone tell what exactly those are?
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #1 - April 24, 2009, 09:27 AM
    She was 18 when Muhammad died at 63, he consummated when she was 9, he 54, married her at 6, he 51. I'll look for the math errors in asserting she married at 18.

    There's this thread from FFI.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #2 - April 24, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Besides the hadiths which show Ayesha playing with dolls, these are the hadiths concerning her age:

    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
    Narrated 'Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

    Ayesha 6-Muhammad 51, Ayesha 9-Muhammad 54, Ayesha 18-Muhammad 63. These ages of Ayesha & Muhammad's corresponding ages match perfectly, other chronologies can't arrive at any definite age, some specualte she's 15, some say she was as old as 18!

    P.S. Isn't 18 too late for a woman then to be unmarried? Women would be married 14-16, Saffiyyah whom Mo married after butchering her husband, was 17 & had been married previously.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #3 - April 24, 2009, 08:36 PM
    Best way to approach it would be to ask them if they reject the sahih ahadith. I think you'd find that most would not be prepared to answer a straight yes to this question, and once they say "no" you can then hit them with Bukhari and Muslim. Make sure you let them set themselves up for it first though.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #4 - April 25, 2009, 12:12 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 09:20 AM
    I've seen more and more muslims using the argument, but it doesn't fit considering she was very immature when they married (playing with dolls, etc). Someone on this forum mentioned there were mathematical problems with this age too (I think it was Baal). Can someone tell what exactly those are?

    There are dozens of hadiths stating Aisha was six at marriage and nine at consummation, there is not a single hadith which states she was 18. The number 18 is arrived at by working backwards using vague and uncertain chronology of the later lives of the Sahaba.

    It's usually phrased something like this:

    Quote
    1) Asmaa Bin Abi Bakr died on year 73 H at the age of 100
    2) Aysha was 10 years younger that Asmaa
    3) Mohammed married Aysha 2 years before Hijrah
    4) Asmaa was 25 years old, 2 years before Hijrah
    5) i.e. Aysha who was 10 years younger, was 15 years old, two years before Hijrah
    6) i.e. Aysha was 15 years old when Mohammed married her (and 18 at consummation)


    The age of Asmaa, daughter of Abu Bakr, is obviously rounded up to one hundred.
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #5 - April 25, 2009, 06:40 AM
    Quote from: Aksel Ankersen on April 25, 2009, 12:12 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 09:20 AM
    I've seen more and more muslims using the argument, but it doesn't fit considering she was very immature when they married (playing with dolls, etc). Someone on this forum mentioned there were mathematical problems with this age too (I think it was Baal). Can someone tell what exactly those are?

    There are dozens of hadiths stating Aisha was six at marriage and nine at consummation, there is not a single hadith which states she was 18. The number 18 is arrived at by working backwards using vague and uncertain chronology of the later lives of the Sahaba.

    It's usually phrased something like this:

    Quote
    1) Asmaa Bin Abi Bakr died on year 73 H at the age of 100
    2) Aysha was 10 years younger that Asmaa
    3) Mohammed married Aysha 2 years before Hijrah
    4) Asmaa was 25 years old, 2 years before Hijrah
    5) i.e. Aysha who was 10 years younger, was 15 years old, two years before Hijrah
    6) i.e. Aysha was 15 years old when Mohammed married her (and 18 at consummation)


    The age of Asmaa, daughter of Abu Bakr, is obviously rounded up to one hundred.

    That was exactly it Aksel. I should also add that the same articles that claim Asma was 100, oretty much on the same breath argued that it was often hard to keep track of people exact age and that some ppl might have thought Aisha was younger then she was.

    In essence stating that it was hard differentiating the 9yr old from the 18yr old, but it was trivial to tell the 90yr old from the 100.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #6 - April 25, 2009, 06:40 AM
    Correction: I mentioned it was hard to differentiate between the 9 and the 18. I mean it was hard to differentiate between the 6 and the 18.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #7 - April 25, 2009, 09:32 AM
    Thanks Aksel and Baal, that's helpful Smiley
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #8 - May 09, 2009, 06:41 PM
    18 would be too old for that time, hell lets not forget the age of consent in UK was 12 years old during Victorian era and what are now considered child marriages was fairly common in that day and age in Britain.

    Imagine what it was like 1400 years back mysmilie_977
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #9 - May 09, 2009, 06:48 PM
    I doubt it ever went much further back than 12, Suprah.  There'd be no point, a wife younger than 12 wouldn't be any good to anyone seeing as the whole point of a wife was to have children.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #10 - May 09, 2009, 09:30 PM
    Another thing to remember is Muslims followed the lunar calender In my opinion Aisha was old enough to be married during that time period for the culture, she was already engaged and about to be married to another man, but the marriage did not happen due to Abu Bakar converting to Islam.

    According to almost ALL the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage. According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabul-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.

    So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.

    Tabaqat ibn Sad, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).

    According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Aisha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when MO was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

    These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Aisha age at the time of her marriage.

    In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the MO marry Aisha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.


    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #11 - May 09, 2009, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on April 24, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Besides the hadiths which show Ayesha playing with dolls, these are the hadiths concerning her age:



    You're full of nonsense, sorry. Do you even know Arabic? The word used for 'DOLLS' in the context could also be used as the word 'GIRLS.' Al-banaat is the word used in the hadith (which could mean girls or dolls) here having the meaning of al-Jawaaree (young girls/women). This in relation to the fact that idols are condemned in Islam even toys that represent living beings are frowned upon.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #12 - May 09, 2009, 09:50 PM
    Moreover, reports regarding Aisha's age were recorded during the Abbasid caliphate when Aisha's youth might be deliberately emphasized to discredit the Shias. Comparison of hadith of Aisha's age with hadith of Laylat al-Qadr, in which 1 was used for 21, 3 for 23, 5 for 25 and so on, suggest that maybe Aisha's reports were transmitted literally and 16 became 6 and 19 became 9, as it is a way of talking in Arabic language when base is already known.

    After looking at above mentioned evidence one thing is proved beyond any doubts that there was no way Aisha was 9 years of age at the time of her marriage to Mo. At minimum and I emphasize at MINIMUM she was 14 years old however the evidence strongly suggests to be between 18 to 21 years of age when Aisha married Mohammed.

    If he was a paedophile, why didn't he marry more girls of Aisha's age?

    Pedophilia is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children see ref for longer definition. Paraphilias are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviours that are distressing or disabling and that involve inanimate objects, children or other non consenting adults, or suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner.

    Above, I have used the medically general accepted definition of pedophilia. This is the widely used definition and comes from MERCK MANUL which is accepted as one of the best medical manuals available.

    According to the AMERICAN HERITAGE dictionaries the definition for preferred is:
    1. To choose or be in the habit of choosing as more desirable or as having more value: prefers coffee to tea.

    Now let me explain to you if there is a group of woman and one of the women in the group is Udita Goswami - as I am attracted to her and like her so much then I will always 'prefer' to have sex with her and not the other women.

    Moreover to be more accurate you have to not only understand the definition of a the word paedophile you also have to understand the paraphilia to be objective otherwise your argument is null and void as valid parameters to the argument are missing.

    Now we have to understand what 'preferred' or 'exclusive' means in the context of the paraphilia of pedophilia - It means, that the arousal patterns are pathological. Now refer back to my group of women what does it mean by 'pathological' I will explain to you: It means that within the group of women I can only get sexual arousal and erection from Udita Goswami erection or orgasm cannot occur without the stimulus she is the stimulus as you're not a doctor your not able to comprehend that this is the fundamental proses to get an erection its 'exclusive' in other words you can get any woman in the nude and naked in front of me, but I will only get an erection from Udita Goswami its pathological. In the case of Mohamed we can see he had sexual relations with many women and not 'exclusively' with Aisha. This fundamentally rules him out to be a paedophile he doesn't fit the diagnosis of a paedophile.

    Furthermore, people with a paraphilia have an nonexistent capacity for affectionate, reciprocal emotional and sexual intimacy with a partner. If we refer to the hadith we can understand Mohamed did not show any of these characteristics. In fact this is one of the most successful men in history if he had a paraphilia he would not be able to function basically he would have been a bum we've never heard of the fact that 1400 years on we are debating about the life of the Mohamed proves he was not a paedophile.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #13 - May 09, 2009, 11:31 PM
    Tut, stop pretending you don't know that the Sahih hadiths record Aisha''s age at marriage as 6-7 and age of consummation as 9.  Stop pretending you don't know that a 53 year old man who has sex with a 9 year old is a paedophile.

    And as for this..

    Quote
    So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.


    You know as well as I do that the age limit of 15 only applied for boys taking part in battle.  Girls of any age could accompany the their men to the battlefield and engage in such activities as helping the wounded and carrying water to the soldiers. 

    Mohammed committed paedophilia, please stop forcing us all through the same silly arguments again and again.  Its like watching somebody try to claim that brothers and sisters in Ancient Egypt who got married couldn't be called incestuous because it was normal for brothers and sisters to marry each other back then.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #14 - May 09, 2009, 11:38 PM
    So in short, if all those ahadeeth are of the same caliber as the ones that cite her age as being 6 and 9... the Quran must be right.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #15 - May 10, 2009, 05:54 AM
    Peruvian. You were asking. The post by Tut is the exact one where some moron, writing to morons, being read and accepted by morons, is trying to tell us, that we were able to keep track of asma's exact age (died at 100 exactly) and then use that exagerated number to backtrack in the story of Asma's life, to claim that aisha was 18yrs old.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #16 - May 10, 2009, 08:06 AM
    @TUT

     By providing contradictory definition you can at the max remove the tag of paedophile from his name but what about his act? Even if Muhhamad wasnt a paedophile as per the definition he did what a paedophile does.You cannot deny that the fact that he emulated a paedophile . IS emulating a paedophile a good thing?
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #17 - May 10, 2009, 08:45 AM
    He's playing word games, like Arabs who claim they can't be anit-semitic, cuz they're semitic too!  wacko
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #18 - May 10, 2009, 01:57 PM
    I sort of feel that even if she was underage and it wasnt the norm...who the hell would say something against it? It seems God quickly answered all of the prophets requests...so giving him Aisha in a dream was just one more request he had. Not to mention that the status of women has never been that great anyhow...so a young girl being offered up into marriage to an old man isnt exactly a headliner in a culture that routinely buried them at birth or traded them like property.

    Right now all those child bride marriages taking place in Yemen and Saudi wouldnt even raise an eyebrow among the natives and only gets attention because outside sources find it abhorrent and bring it to national attention. Otherwise it would be just another day in pedophiles neighborhood.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #19 - May 10, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on May 10, 2009, 08:06 AM
    @TUT

     By providing contradictory definition you can at the max remove the tag of paedophile from his name but what about his act? Even if Muhhamad wasnt a paedophile as per the definition he did what a paedophile does.You cannot deny that the fact that he emulated a paedophile . IS emulating a paedophile a good thing?


    Let's end it here:  If a person, who has never before carried out a pedophilic act, does so JUST ONCE, that turns him into a pedophile.  There is no going back, even if he never repeats the act.  Ergo, mohammad was a pedophile.  QED



  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #20 - May 10, 2009, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: SmartAssmodeus on May 10, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: skynightblaze on May 10, 2009, 08:06 AM
    @TUT

     By providing contradictory definition you can at the max remove the tag of paedophile from his name but what about his act? Even if Muhhamad wasnt a paedophile as per the definition he did what a paedophile does.You cannot deny that the fact that he emulated a paedophile . IS emulating a paedophile a good thing?


    Let's end it here:  If a person, who has never before carried out a pedophilic act, does so JUST ONCE, that turns him into a pedophile.  There is no going back, even if he never repeats the act.  Ergo, mohammad was a pedophile.  QED




    Muslims provide variety of definitions of paedophilia( see answering christianity). They would say that a man needs to have a preference only for children and blah blah. Thats why I think its wise to avoid definitions and rather question them on the actual act. By questioning the actual act they dont stand a single chance to divert the topic.

    However I see Muhhamad as a paedophile as he satisfies many of the definitions.
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #21 - May 10, 2009, 03:00 PM
    Your attraction does not have to be limited to just children to be a pedo, but in all fairness most of Mo's wives were incredibly young. He also stopped having sex with Sauda when she got too old yet Mo is hardly a youngster himself, fucking hypocrite! I feel sorry for poor Sauda, she deserved someone better.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #22 - May 10, 2009, 03:46 PM
    I am a moral relativist so I don't really have an objection to Mohammed's character. I am also an existentialist in case you are wondering.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #23 - May 10, 2009, 04:09 PM
    Quote from: KingTut
    Another thing to remember is Muslims followed the lunar calender

    Making Aisha younger, if anything, as the 12 lunar months is about 354 days.

    Quote from: KingTut
    In my opinion Aisha was old enough to be married during that time period for the culture,

    If that culture condoned paedophilia...

    Quote from: KingTut
    she was already engaged and about to be married to another man, but the marriage did not happen due to Abu Bakar converting to Islam.

    ...strongly suggesting paedophilia was condoned in pre-Islamic Arabia.

    Quote from: King Tut on May 09, 2009, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on April 24, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Besides the hadiths which show Ayesha playing with dolls, these are the hadiths concerning her age:



    You're full of nonsense, sorry. Do you even know Arabic? The word used for 'DOLLS' in the context could also be used as the word 'GIRLS.' Al-banaat is the word used in the hadith (which could mean girls or dolls) here having the meaning of al-Jawaaree (young girls/women). This in relation to the fact that idols are condemned in Islam even toys that represent living beings are frowned upon.

    I can't wait to hear your explanation of Aisha playing on a swing just before she went to Muhammad's house:

    Quote
    ?A?ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunh among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, "These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me. Only Sa?d b. ?Ubaidah sent a bowl of food which he used to send to the Messenger of God.

    -Tabari vol 9 page 131


    And here's the Arabic, for you to reinterpret the words (this version from Musnad Ahmad):

    Quote

    فى السنة الحادية عشر من النبوة ، تزوج المعصوم من عائشة الصديقة وهى بنت ست سنين لما كان محمد جالسا بمنزلهم واحضرتها امها وهى تلهو مع الاطفال وتتأرجح على ارجوحة بين عزقين ، واجلستها على حجر محمد وهو جالس على سرير لهم وقالت هؤلاء اهلك فبارك الله لك، وبنى بها وهى بنت تسع سنين وهى بالمدينة ، فخرج القوم واغلقوا الباب عليهما فبنى بها فى بيتها وهى بنت تسع سنوات عندئذ، علما بانها كانت فى الثامنة عشر عند وفاة محمد،يقول بعض كتاب السير ان الرسول اراد بهذه الزيجة توطيد العلاقة بينه وبين ابى بكر الصديق لذلك تزوج طفلته ،وفى ذلك الاعتبار يا اولى الابصار


    I've underlined the bit about the swing.
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #24 - May 10, 2009, 04:33 PM
    Like I said morals are relative, even if you read the narration of course this is shocking too us, but it was not a big deal then. Just like its not a big deal to have sex with a 16 year old even if your 56, what we judge to be ethical is based on our culture and our time. On what basis do you judge anyone other cultures morals and ethics even when they are not in the same time frame? 
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #25 - May 10, 2009, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 10, 2009, 03:46 PM
    I am a moral relativist so I don't really have an objection to Mohammed's character. I am also an existentialist in case you are wondering.

    Does moral relativity make a difference to the fact that kids aren't ready for marriage at 6 when they don't even understand the concept? Or that their biology can barely handle becoming pregnant as soon as they reach puberty? Or that they can cope having sex without their vagina ripping apart?
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #26 - May 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 10, 2009, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 10, 2009, 03:46 PM
    I am a moral relativist so I don't really have an objection to Mohammed's character. I am also an existentialist in case you are wondering.

    Does moral relativity make a difference to the fact that kids aren't ready for marriage at 6 when they don't even understand the concept? Or that their biology can barely handle becoming pregnant as soon as they reach puberty? Or that they can cope having sex without their vagina ripping apart?


    During that period of time and within that culture it was perfectly normal. Do I consider it to be unethical YES, but at the time they did not know any better. I don't condone it, I just say ethics are not OBJECTIVE they change over time. And I don't want to debate this any further.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #27 - May 10, 2009, 04:41 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 10, 2009, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 10, 2009, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 10, 2009, 03:46 PM
    I am a moral relativist so I don't really have an objection to Mohammed's character. I am also an existentialist in case you are wondering.

    Does moral relativity make a difference to the fact that kids aren't ready for marriage at 6 when they don't even understand the concept? Or that their biology can barely handle becoming pregnant as soon as they reach puberty? Or that they can cope having sex without their vagina ripping apart?


    During that period of time and within that culture it was perfectly normal. Do I consider it to be unethical YES, but at the time they did not know any better. I don't condone it, I just say ethics are not OBJECTIVE they change over time. And I don't want to debate this any further.

    Oh fair enough.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #28 - May 10, 2009, 04:43 PM
    I don't find it unethical to have a sex harem by the way.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: The problems with Aisha being 18?
     Reply #29 - May 10, 2009, 04:47 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 10, 2009, 04:43 PM
    I don't find it unethical to have a sex harem by the way.

    I know you don't Tongue However I'm sure all those women would drive even you nuts after a while with their constant bickering and bitching Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
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