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 Topic: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     OP - April 25, 2009, 05:03 AM

    I found this  funny hadith today:  Cheesy

    Sahih Bukhari
    Volume 8, Book 82, Number 820:
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

    This man hates effeminate men & manly women & curses them, which is bad enough, but we have to turn such people out of our houses also?  Huh?

    How mean, rude & unneccessary!  furious



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #1 - April 25, 2009, 05:37 AM

    He really loved to make peoples lives as difficult to live as possible.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #2 - April 25, 2009, 06:35 AM

    He really loved to make peoples lives as difficult to live as possible.


    But imagine turning such people out!  bunny

    I have an extremely effeminate  Ballet Sir at my school who's very fond of me, when he was visiting my maternal grandparents' city during the holidays, I had invited him home & my grandpa was very nice to him.

    Wonder if grandpa knows this hadith that he's supposed to turn such people out, rather than be hospitable to them.  Wink

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #3 - April 25, 2009, 06:40 AM

    Do not question what Rasoolallah salalaahu alaihi wasalam said.  furious

    Verily he is the perfect example for mankind.

    Takbir!!!!



    Cool

    .
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #4 - April 25, 2009, 10:35 AM

    Do not question what Rasoolallah salalaahu alaihi wasalam said.  furious

    Verily he is the perfect example for mankind.

    Takbir!!!!



    Cool


    I better load up on the anti burns lotion for my time in Hell! Wink

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #5 - April 25, 2009, 10:56 PM

    I've always wanted to know what traditionalist Muslims think about intersexed people and people who are atypical for their sex. For instance, here is a woman who, without taking hormones, testosterone or having a sex-change or anything like that, is just masculine in her appearance:
    http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/images/2007/07/10/skyler2.jpg

    Her name is Skyler Cooper and she is an actress. She actually plays the role of Othello in a production of the Shakespeare play of the same name in San Francisco, a part that they cast her for simply because she was so perfectly suited for it in both appearance and acting. Again, bear in mind that she doesn't take testosterone or anything like that -- this is just how her hormonal, genetic and muscle/bone build is naturally.

    Modern research shows that human sexual dimorphism is not such a neat binary -- you can think of there being overlapping bell curves for men and women, and there is a minority of individuals covered by the intersection of the two curves, for whom the entire medical definition of sex breaks down on every level, whether chromosomal, hormonal, etc.

    It's interesting also that the Iranian government actually supports and funds sex-changes but punishes homosexuality with death (the Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa in support of sex-change surgeries). I think the reason why this happens is because people who challenge the gender binary (and hence patriarchy) make conservative shaykhs and ayatollahs very nervous, and so they would much rather support sex-change surgeries and thus reinforce the gender binary than have atypical men or women walking around. There is a wonderful book called "Women with Mustaches and Men without Beards: Gender and Sexual Anxieties of Iranian Modernity" by Afsaneh Najmabadi that documents some of these issues very well.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #6 - April 25, 2009, 11:27 PM

    I've always wanted to know what traditionalist Muslims think about intersexed people and people who are atypical for their sex. For instance, here is a woman who, without taking hormones, testosterone or having a sex-change or anything like that, is just masculine in her appearance:
    http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/images/2007/07/10/skyler2.jpg

    Her name is Skyler Cooper and she is an actress. She actually plays the role of Othello in a production of the Shakespeare play of the same name in San Francisco, a part that they cast her for simply because she was so perfectly suited for it in both appearance and acting. Again, bear in mind that she doesn't take testosterone or anything like that -- this is just how her hormonal, genetic and muscle/bone build is naturally.



    Gosh! Skyler Cooper looks exactly like a man! I could've never guessed that she's a woman.   Smiley

    Since Islam's insaan i kamil Muhammad despised people atypical fro their sex & even advised turning them out of one's house, I suspect most Muslims don't treat intersexed people & people atypical for their sex very kindly, to say the least.  Mo needs to shoulder at least some of the blame for that.

    Modern research shows that human sexual dimorphism is not such a neat binary -- you can think of there being overlapping bell curves for men and women, and there is a minority of individuals covered by the intersection of the two curves, for whom the entire medical definition of sex breaks down on every level, whether chromosomal, hormonal, etc.

    It's interesting also that the Iranian government actually supports and funds sex-changes but punishes homosexuality with death (the Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa in support of sex-change surgeries). I think the reason why this happens is because people who challenge the gender binary (and hence patriarchy) make conservative shaykhs and ayatollahs very nervous, and so they would much rather support sex-change surgeries and thus reinforce the gender binary than have atypical men or women walking around. There is a wonderful book called "Women with Mustaches and Men without Beards: Gender and Sexual Anxieties of Iranian Modernity" by Afsaneh Najmabadi that documents some of these issues very well.


    Yep, I'd always wondered why Iran tolerates, even endorses sex change operations-your explanation makes the most sense.Gotta buy that book  Smiley

    Coming back to Muhammad, I find his stance on effeminate men & masculine women very mean.  finmad

    Its never very happy for any individual to be very different from others-& be different in an unpleasant way.

    Its nice to be prettier than others, smarter than others etc but quite another thing to have loads of facial hair as a woman or be too a "girly" man! Even today, society doesn't treat such people very well, it was worse earlier when gender roles were far more rigid.

    In such a society, Muhammad, instead of making these people's lives easier, gives the advice of turning them out of one's house & making them more miserable! banghead

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #7 - April 26, 2009, 07:53 AM

    To Rashna and Ned.

    One thing I find very strange about Pakistan is the "khusra" culture and I was wandering what you two make of it. For a fairly conservative country, I find it strange that they are accepted as a part of society. I know that they are at the bottom rung of society, they have to do horrible things to survive, and they are not respected at all, but they are still seen as a normal part of society. Is it more socially acceptable to be a transvestite than to be openly homosexual? And what is the situation in India?


    Oh, and on another note, the Iranian government are paying for sex change operations to "cure" homosexuals! How bizarre is that!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #8 - April 26, 2009, 08:23 AM

    Is it more socially acceptable to be a transvestite than to be openly homosexual? And what is the situation in India?



    The situation is pretty similar in India, homosexuality is still a punishable offence in the law books, but I don't know of anyone who has been punished yet, there are some openly gay celebrities!


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #9 - April 26, 2009, 01:14 PM

    Oh, and on another note, the Iranian government are paying for sex change operations to "cure" homosexuals! How bizarre is that!

     mysmilie_977

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #10 - April 29, 2009, 06:14 AM

    I found this  funny hadith today:  Cheesy

    Sahih Bukhari
    Volume 8, Book 82, Number 820:
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

    This man hates effeminate men & manly women & curses them, which is bad enough, but we have to turn such people out of our houses also?  Huh?

    How mean, rude & unneccessary!  furious





    Mo is talking about men who act like women and women who act like men, I like sublime femininity in my woman I don't expect her to have cock and balls. So I kind of agree with him, but kicking them out is a little extreme.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #11 - April 29, 2009, 07:11 AM

    I found this  funny hadith today:  Cheesy

    Sahih Bukhari
    Volume 8, Book 82, Number 820:
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

    This man hates effeminate men & manly women & curses them, which is bad enough, but we have to turn such people out of our houses also?  Huh?

    How mean, rude & unneccessary!  furious





    Mo is talking about men who act like women and women who act like men, I like sublime femininity in my woman I don't expect her to have cock and balls. So I kind of agree with him, but kicking them out is a little extreme.

    There's a difference between having preferences and cursing something because you dislike it. Females and males aren't binary constructs, neither should be expected (or forced) to behave the way society likes to portray them. This hadith is very illogical.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #12 - April 29, 2009, 10:58 AM

    Of course I am not agreeing with the hadith.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #13 - April 30, 2009, 03:48 PM

    Check out this book -- together with Najmabadi's book, it's perfect for my planned refutation of AHM's silly views on gender:
    http://www.avaxhome.ws/ebooks/theology_occultism/east_religion/829825.html

    ------
    Allah Made Us: Sexual Outlaws in an Islamic African City (New Directions in Ethnography) By Rudolf Pell Gaudio

    A rich and engrossing account of 'sexual outlaws' in the Hausa-speaking region of northern Nigeria, where Islamic law requires strict separation of the sexes and different rules of behavior for women and men in virtually every facet of life.

    The first ethnographic study of sexual minorities in Africa, and one of very few works on sexual minorities in the Islamic world

    Engagingly written, combining innovative, ethnographic narrative with analyses of sociolinguistic transcripts, historical texts, and popular media, including video, film, newspapers, and song-poetry

    Analyzes the social experiences and expressive culture of yan daudu (feminine men in Nigerian Hausaland) in relation to local, national, and global debates over gender and sexuality at the turn of the twenty-first century
    ------

    Oh, AHM is so going to get it. He's on my intellectual hitlist. *rubs hands in glee*
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #14 - April 30, 2009, 03:55 PM

    One thing I find very strange about Pakistan is the "khusra" culture and I was wandering what you two make of it. For a fairly conservative country, I find it strange that they are accepted as a part of society. I know that they are at the bottom rung of society, they have to do horrible things to survive, and they are not respected at all, but they are still seen as a normal part of society. Is it more socially acceptable to be a transvestite than to be openly homosexual? And what is the situation in India?

    It's complex -- but yes there is a historical recognition of the hijras in South Asia. However they are treated much better in secular India than Islamic Pakistan -- they've won voting rights in some Indian states. Also the Indic religions are much more appreciative of androgyny than Islam is. However there's a long way to go before the "third sex" gains full acceptance in South Asia. Some LGBT rights activists in India by the way are also arguing that the "third sex" includes gay and bisexual people. But yes, I think in South Asia, transvestites are more tolerated than homosexuals as long as they play a somewhat amusing role in society, e.g. consider the Begum Nawazish Ali character on Pakistani television -- she has even interviewed mullahs on her show.

    Oh, and on another note, the Iranian government are paying for sex change operations to "cure" homosexuals! How bizarre is that!

    Yeah, Najmabadi's book covers this whole issue in great detail. It's quite terrible.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #15 - April 30, 2009, 05:01 PM

    It's complex -- but yes there is a historical recognition of the hijras in South Asia. However they are treated much better in secular India than Islamic Pakistan -- they've won voting rights in some Indian states. Also the Indic religions are much more appreciative of androgyny than Islam is. However there's a long way to go before the "third sex" gains full acceptance in South Asia. Some LGBT rights activists in India by the way are also arguing that the "third sex" includes gay and bisexual people. But yes, I think in South Asia, transvestites are more tolerated than homosexuals as long as they play a somewhat amusing role in society, e.g. consider the Begum Nawazish Ali character on Pakistani television -- she has even interviewed mullahs on her show.


    I remember somebody telling me that the "khusras" or "hijras" are people who were born with male and female sexual organs. But that can't be the case. You see them everywhere and there aren't that many people who are born with male and female sexual organs. Are they eunuchs or transvestites or transexuals?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #16 - April 30, 2009, 11:23 PM

    I remember somebody telling me that the "khusras" or "hijras" are people who were born with male and female sexual organs. But that can't be the case. You see them everywhere and there aren't that many people who are born with male and female sexual organs. Are they eunuchs or transvestites or transexuals?

    Some are probably intersexed. Most of them, though, must be effeminate men who have a crude form of sex-change surgery done via castration of some sort -- sometimes I think it can even be forced on such a man. So they're probably mostly transvestites and eunuchs.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #17 - May 01, 2009, 02:17 AM

    I was actually sitting on the bus today and I saw a girl with some seriously hefty arms.  She didn't look like she worked out or anything, it just looked like how she was built. 

    If I'm honest with myself, it was quite recent that I subconsciously just assumed gay folks and lesbians 'put on an act' so to speak... when it came to how they carried themselves (manly or effeminately).  Of course, many times their bodies are just built that way, it's involuntary.  Of course that's not true for every homosexual guy or gal, but i think it's one more piece of evidence towards a spectrum of sexuality that we tend to be born along... rather than this ridiculous notion that we choose it at some point.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #18 - May 01, 2009, 05:57 AM

    It's complex -- but yes there is a historical recognition of the hijras in South Asia. However they are treated much better in secular India than Islamic Pakistan -- they've won voting rights in some Indian states. Also the Indic religions are much more appreciative of androgyny than Islam is. However there's a long way to go before the "third sex" gains full acceptance in South Asia. Some LGBT rights activists in India by the way are also arguing that the "third sex" includes gay and bisexual people. But yes, I think in South Asia, transvestites are more tolerated than homosexuals as long as they play a somewhat amusing role in society, e.g. consider the Begum Nawazish Ali character on Pakistani television -- she has even interviewed mullahs on her show.


    I remember somebody telling me that the "khusras" or "hijras" are people who were born with male and female sexual organs. But that can't be the case. You see them everywhere and there aren't that many people who are born with male and female sexual organs. Are they eunuchs or transvestites or transexuals?

    I thought they were transexuals?
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #19 - May 01, 2009, 07:44 AM

    I think they a lot of them are gay.  The only way they can get any recognition as an individual, is by behaving like a transexual, as that is more socially acceptable than a man loving another man.

    Very sad.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #20 - May 01, 2009, 07:58 AM

    That sounds reasonable, poor people.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #21 - May 04, 2009, 08:50 PM

    I was actually sitting on the bus today and I saw a girl with some seriously hefty arms.  She didn't look like she worked out or anything, it just looked like how she was built. 

    If I'm honest with myself, it was quite recent that I subconsciously just assumed gay folks and lesbians 'put on an act' so to speak... when it came to how they carried themselves (manly or effeminately).  Of course, many times their bodies are just built that way, it's involuntary.  Of course that's not true for every homosexual guy or gal, but i think it's one more piece of evidence towards a spectrum of sexuality that we tend to be born along... rather than this ridiculous notion that we choose it at some point.


    I have met several women like that and they were all straight.  I even dated one of them.
  • Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men
     Reply #22 - May 06, 2009, 09:32 AM


    Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!

    How mean, rude & unneccessary!



    I think women also dont like girly men.

    Which girls would like to hang around a her boyfriend who is a weak and a sissy.

    Women desire a REAL MAN.

    Dont you think?


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men
     Reply #23 - May 06, 2009, 09:35 AM



    I think women also dont like girly men.

    Which girls would like to hang around a her boyfriend who is a weak and a sissy.

    Women desire a REAL MAN.

    Dont you think?




    Define a real man and a sissy just so we are clear where you are going with this?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #24 - May 06, 2009, 09:55 AM

    I think that might offend the "girls".

    I think all women have an idea of what a real man is.

    They dont need to be told.

    Lionesses can sense a lion miles off.

    Nature has given females a good nose.


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #25 - May 06, 2009, 09:58 AM

    Quote
    I think that might offend the "girls".


    Why on earth would it offend the girls if you stated your definitions of a real man and a sissy?   Huh?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #26 - May 06, 2009, 09:59 AM

    I think that might offend the "girls".

    I think all women have an idea of what a real man is.

    They dont need to be told.

    Lionesses can sense a lion miles off.

    Nature has given females a good nose.




    Your user title says "do you fear debates?" so why the fear of offending the women with vague insinuations that only a real lioness would know what you are talking about?

    Step up to your statements and define your comment.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #27 - May 06, 2009, 10:04 AM


    Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!

    How mean, rude & unneccessary!



    I think women also dont like girly men.

    Which girls would like to hang around a her boyfriend who is a weak and a sissy.

    Women desire a REAL MAN.

    Dont you think?



    I would like a definition too. What on earth is a REAL MAN?
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #28 - May 06, 2009, 10:14 AM


    Your user title says "do you fear debates?" so why the fear of offending the women with vague insinuations that only a real lioness would know what you are talking about?


    Oh boy, you're hard.

    What have you been drinking.

    I think you know exactly what I mean. You are qualified. A "Real Man" is a hero. Havent you heard the song "I need a hero". He is not a girly man.

    Anyway, I hate to offend the ladies. Especially, if they are not used to the shocking stuff. Like a new bride, who has never been touched by a man before, she cannot be shown everything in one go. You want to sail the boat, not rock the ship. You see, one has to be gentle if one wants to enjoy the view of snow melting in ones hands.

    Offending ladies is not part of good logical debates. Being good to women is sure way to get into heaven, here and there.

    So... I dont want to lose the pleasures waiting for me on the other side.


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women!
     Reply #29 - May 06, 2009, 10:17 AM



    Oh boy, you're hard.

    What have you been drinking.


    Tea, are you trying to suggest I have been drinking something else?

    Quote

    I think you know exactly what I mean. You are qualified. A "Real Man" is a hero. Havent you heard the song "I need a hero". He is not a girly man.


    Says who?  what kind of hero?  the A typical hero who uses brute strength to rescue the girl, or the quiet hero who uses support and compassion to win the girl away from the brute?

    You are trying to say only macho cavemen are real men, when really macho men are just walking cocks, a bag of testosterone, a lump of meat with not much brain.

    Quote

    Anyway, I hate to offend the ladies. Especially, if they are not used to the shocking stuff. Like a new bride, who has never been touched by a man before, she cannot be shown everything in one go. You want to sail the boat, not rock the ship. You see, one has to be gentle if one want to enjoy the view the snow melt in ones hands.

    Offending ladies is not part of good logical debates. Being good to women is sure way to get into heaven, here and there.

    So... I dont want to lose the pleasures waiting for me on the other side.




    Well keep up the good work, your inability to make a rational definition has done wonders for your mission not to offend.  Roll Eyes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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