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 Topic: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina

 (Read 3654 times)
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  • A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     OP - April 27, 2009, 10:34 PM

    Who's been to Saudi Arabia?  Or Mecca/Medina to be precise?

    I've never been there yet, but I would like to go in the near future.  Who?s been on Hajj or Umrah?

    Non-Muslims aren't allowed to enter Mecca/Medina of course because Islam is such a tolerant religion?  Roll Eyes ?but we ex-Muslims would easily be able to get away with it, being the munafiqs that we are.

    I don't believe in Islam anymore of course, but I just know that I'll still be completely amazed by the place.  From a historical perspective, and an educational perspective.

    Can you imagine standing metres away from Muhammads grave?  Or the graves of the sahaba like Abu Bakr?  It would feel very emotional, there?s no doubt about that.  1400 years of history would flash through my mind, the memories of growing up as a Muslim, the influence that that these place have on the world...

    .
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #1 - April 27, 2009, 10:38 PM

    I never want to go to Saudi Arabia, I have no interest in watching so many people so sincerely submit to this degrading religion.  Also as a women, it is difficult enough wearing the hijaab let alone a niqaab and who know's what can happen there? I just don't think it's a safe place.

    'The greatest glory of living lies not in never falling but in rising everytime you fall'
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #2 - April 27, 2009, 10:44 PM

    Who's been to Saudi Arabia?  Or Mecca/Medina to be precise?

    I've never been there yet, but I would like to go in the near future.  Who?s been on Hajj or Umrah?

    Non-Muslims aren't allowed to enter Mecca/Medina of course because Islam is such a tolerant religion?  Roll Eyes ?but we ex-Muslims would easily be able to get away with it, being the munafiqs that we are.

    I don't believe in Islam anymore of course, but I just know that I'll still be completely amazed by the place.  From a historical perspective, and an educational perspective.

    Can you imagine standing metres away from Muhammads grave?  Or the graves of the sahaba like Abu Bakr?  It would feel very emotional, there?s no doubt about that.  1400 years of history would flash through my mind, the memories of growing up as a Muslim, the influence that that these place have on the world...

    It would be interesting to check the place out, but I'd make sure I went in winter and when the Haj wasn't in full swing. That would be madness.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #3 - April 27, 2009, 11:17 PM

    I wonder how successfully a non-muslim can sneak in :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #4 - April 27, 2009, 11:21 PM

    I was thinking about that. You'd want to know the basics to cover your ass but it shouldn't be too hard. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if thousands of people have done it already.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #5 - April 28, 2009, 04:30 AM

    My mom did the hajj with my grandparents some years back. The Saudi tour guide at Mecca was surprised to learn that she was married to a non Muslim, but he didn't show any disapproval, certainly not in his words & not even in his expression. He said he'd met a Turkish German woman married to a German non Muslim the year before.

    My mom met another Muslim woman from Sierra Leone who was married to a Sierra Leonese animist, & before that was married to a Christian, she too went freely on the hajj, & she claimed that many women from her country have inter faith marriages.

    Although most Islamic schools of thought consider it haram for a Muslimah to marry a non Muslimah, it seems Saudi doesn't regard them as automatically having apostasised. yes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #6 - April 28, 2009, 04:48 AM

    I went for Umra a few years ago. Horrible experience. Saudi Arabia is spiritually and culturally dead.

    I was actually harassed *during* the Umra by some moral policeman at the Ka'aba who said some of my hair was showing!

    People were generally emotional and crazy. They were weeping and crying, flinging themselves against the Ka'aba, pushing each other to kiss the Hajr-e-Aswad (the Black Stone), etc. At the Masjid-e-Nabawi too, people were pushing and hitting each other to see the burial place of Muhammad.

    To sum up: it was probably one of the most un-spiritual experiences of my life.
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #7 - April 28, 2009, 05:04 AM

    I was thinking about that. You'd want to know the basics to cover your ass but it shouldn't be too hard. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if thousands of people have done it already.


    Richard Francis Burton was one of the earliest recorded non Muslim Europeans to go on the hajj.

    Quote from: wikipedia Richard Burton
    Although Burton was not the first non-Muslim European to make the Hajj (Ludovico di Barthema in 1503 is believed to hold that distinction[12]), his pilgrimage is the most famous and the best documented of the time. He adopted various disguises including that of a Pashtun to account for any oddities in speech, but he still had to demonstrate an understanding of intricate Islamic ritual, and a familiarity with the minutiae of Eastern manners and etiquette. Burton's trek to Mecca was quite dangerous and his caravan was attacked by bandits (a common experience at the time). As he put it, although "...neither Koran or Sultan enjoin the death of Jew or Christian intruding within the columns that note the sanctuary limits, nothing could save a European detected by the populace, or one who after pilgrimage declared himself an unbeliever."[13] The pilgrimage entitled him to the title of Hajji and to wear green head wrap. Burton's own account of his journey is given in A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Meccah (1855).
    Some members of his entourage suspected there was more to Burton than met the eye. He came close to being discovered one night when he lifted his robe to urinate, rather than squatting as an Arab would. He thought he was unseen, but the youngest member of his group happened to see him. The lad accused him of being an imposter, but let Burton convince him to keep his doubts to himself.[14]
    When Burton returned to the British Army he sat for examination as an Arab linguist - and failed.[15]


    This Jihad Watch news says that the Saudi Embassy has warned that non Muslims performing hajj will be prosecuted.

    I won't want to spend a few years in jail, although I'm personally curious about the hajj, & wouldn't mind being fined a little.



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #8 - April 28, 2009, 07:39 AM

    I'd only be interested in going in the off season, not when the place is chock full of screaming lunatics. If there isn't an off season I wouldn't bother with the place.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #9 - April 28, 2009, 08:09 AM

    Who's been to Saudi Arabia?  Or Mecca/Medina to be precise?

    I've never been there yet, but I would like to go in the near future.  Who?s been on Hajj or Umrah?



    You reminded me of the old days .....
    I have been there. Performed Hajj twice and Umrah quite few times. Only once to Medina though. I was working in Jeddah so luckily I didn't have to spend too much money.

    In Mecca, old mountains are still there and you can feel and imagine the historical times and smell the desert. It's like you are in old times where it all began.

    The first time I saw Kaaba, I was really amazed with the very clean and wide place where there is a very dark black clothes covering a small building in the middle. The place was quite empty so I managed to see almost the whole place. I guess that impression was due to mental and emotional preparation. When I went there again, I was wondering why I don't get the same feeling anymore.

    It is all hilarious. I used to see people crying there and tried to be more emotional but I couldn't cry. Like I was trying to force myself to cry as I thought one should be when in a holly place.   Roll Eyes

    When it's Umrah or Hajj season, it is very crowded and people keep pushing you without any consideration -- especially those from south African countries with a huge body. I used to try to run away from them when I see them near me .... but there is nowhere to run to. You are stuck in the middle of crowd of people pushing you from all sides ....... finmad

    Every time I used to try to go to the black stone to see it but I see people literally fighting with their hands to go there so I don't try to go there. Only once where it was quite empty, I managed to go there with the help of guards who are standing near the stone who were pushing other men to allow women to go there. Well ..... I touched it and smelled it but didn?t feel anything special. It has a nice smell and I wonder if they put this smell themselves.  Huh?

    There, when it's full, men can push and touch women as they like ..... As if we are sardines in a can .....When you look at them or say anything ...... Oh, they didn't mean it, it's the crowd .....  whistling2

    Sometimes there are those religious persons going around shouting at women to cover their face although as far as I know, it's not supposed to ......

    Other than that .......... It?s all cool  cool2

    Around Kaaba, there are lots of shops where you can get good stuff cheaper than other places. You need to bargain a lot to get a good deal though.

    Hajj was the worst experience I have ever had. The first time I performed it properly and I got exhausted and swollen feet at the end. The second time, I performed what is called a quick Hajj. Where you do the first 2 days and then ask someone else to do the rest on your behalf. That was better ......

    The worst part in Hajj is when I had to throw stones at the evil .... Ah ....... What if the stone is thrown on someone else's head (which I hear it happens many times). I waited till I can get near the place to throw a stone ..... And I was thinking, what a ridiculous thing to do ..... Oh ..... God forgive me .....  Cheesy

    Well ..... It?s such an unforgettable experience
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #10 - April 28, 2009, 08:12 AM

    I never want to go to Saudi Arabia, I have no interest in watching so many people so sincerely submit to this degrading religion.  Also as a women, it is difficult enough wearing the hijaab let alone a niqaab and who know's what can happen there? I just don't think it's a safe place.


    It's actually quite safe there ...... You may get men asking for your phone number or giving you their phone number hoping you will call them. Or you may get men pushing you or holding part of your body and then running away. Also, you may get your money stolen so you have to take care of your wallet .... It happened to me when I was shopping in Mecca ..... I lost all the money I had plus all the important documents I carry in my wallet....

    Other than that, it's very safe ......   whistling2
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #11 - April 28, 2009, 08:22 AM

    I was thinking about that. You'd want to know the basics to cover your ass but it shouldn't be too hard. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if thousands of people have done it already.


    They have strict procedures when people go by bus. They check every ID where religion is written before issuing a ticket. Private cars don?t usually get checked at Mecca gate but they would certainly check if someone looks foreigner or non-arab (blond hair, white complexion, etc.). I?m not sure what the consequence would be if a non-muslim is caught trying to sneak there but I expect he would be in a big trouble..
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #12 - April 28, 2009, 08:31 AM

    I was thinking about that. You'd want to know the basics to cover your ass but it shouldn't be too hard. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if thousands of people have done it already.


    They have strict procedures when people go by bus. They check every ID where religion is written before issuing a ticket. Private cars don?t usually get checked at Mecca gate but they would certainly check if someone looks foreigner or non-arab (blond hair, white complexion, etc.). I?m not sure what the consequence would be if a non-muslim is caught trying to sneak there but I expect he would be in a big trouble..

    Yeah, and if you call yourself Muslim at home and know the basics of the religion (and most Muslims don't know much more than that) then you can get ID that says you are Muslim.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #13 - April 28, 2009, 09:44 AM

    Yeah, and if you call yourself Muslim at home and know the basics of the religion (and most Muslims don't know much more than that) then you can get ID that says you are Muslim.


    Exactly osmanthus. Is it a privilege to have a Muslim ID?? I don't think so.

    Also, knowing only the basics of the religion is enough to know its truth only if there are no other influences (family, society, culture, education, etc.).

    Many Muslims argue that one shouldn't criticize Islam if he doesn't study it extensively and should get information from experts only (who they have many different opinions). Basics are enough to see things very clear as the sun but many are wearing heavy sunglasses :(
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #14 - April 28, 2009, 09:56 AM

    Yup. What I meant though was that if you really wanted to get into Mecca and were prepared to plan ahead a bit (say for a year or so) I reckon anyone could do it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #15 - April 28, 2009, 04:10 PM

    I'd only be interested in going in the off season, not when the place is chock full of screaming lunatics. If there isn't an off season I wouldn't bother with the place.

    I went in the off-season -- it was pretty crazy even then.
  • Re: A journey to where it all began - Mecca + Medina
     Reply #16 - April 28, 2009, 05:30 PM

    I went for Umra a few years ago. Horrible experience. Saudi Arabia is spiritually and culturally dead.

    I was actually harassed *during* the Umra by some moral policeman at the Ka'aba who said some of my hair was showing!

    People were generally emotional and crazy. They were weeping and crying, flinging themselves against the Ka'aba, pushing each other to kiss the Hajr-e-Aswad (the Black Stone), etc. At the Masjid-e-Nabawi too, people were pushing and hitting each other to see the burial place of Muhammad.

    To sum up: it was probably one of the most un-spiritual experiences of my life.


    I am not going to go then, I was planning on going just as a holiday experience. But I don't think I would enjoy that experience.
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