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Theme Changer

 Topic: It's Metaphorical!

 (Read 9427 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • It's Metaphorical!
     OP - May 02, 2009, 01:36 PM

    This video was partly prompted by Tailor, though I am constantly accused by my Muslim brother and other Muslim friends that I am thinking like the literalists and that I should know better that the Qur'an should not be taken literally etc...

    *******************

    <EDIT>

    Here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-tQviPSQI
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #1 - May 02, 2009, 01:43 PM

    For some strange reason it uploaded all weird - the sound was out of sync and it chopped of the last part of the video.

    Since I have it all complete on my desktop I'm not sure why that has happened - so I have deleted it and will upload again as soon as I can.

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #2 - May 02, 2009, 02:00 PM

    OK...

    Something is fucked up.

    I uploaded it again and it is STILL messed up and cutting off the last part - WTF?Huh?

    OK sod this!
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #3 - May 02, 2009, 02:56 PM

    :( try later, maybe youtube will be better. Sometimes stuff doesn't work right when they're updating the system and whatnot.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #4 - May 02, 2009, 03:15 PM

    I look forward to watching it! If you are partly inspired by my post last weekend, feel free to make it a response to my inaugural youtube clip:
     http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-seal-of-islam/
    I will take no offense. The dialectic is the thing!

    The Tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #5 - May 02, 2009, 03:54 PM

    This is clearly Allah's doing.

     Run for the hills

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #6 - May 02, 2009, 04:08 PM

    OK - here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-tQviPSQI
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #7 - May 02, 2009, 04:14 PM

    I look forward to watching it! If you are partly inspired by my post last weekend, feel free to make it a response to my inaugural youtube clip:
     http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-seal-of-islam/
    I will take no offense. The dialectic is the thing!

    The Tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/



    I like the mellow, chilled out music in the background - nicely done  Afro

    I have made my vid a response to yours - though they are not strictly related.

    Bey hey!  grin12
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #8 - May 02, 2009, 04:20 PM

    And since I don't use vote bots or whatnot - that seem to be all the rage - please rate it - yes, I am just as vain as the next guy, but I won't use vote-bots lol Thanks  grin12
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #9 - May 02, 2009, 04:21 PM

    I like the mellow, chilled out music in the background - nicely done  Afro

    I know, I listened to it several times. Very relaxing.  Afro

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #10 - May 02, 2009, 04:24 PM

    OK...

    Something is fucked up.

    I uploaded it again and it is STILL messed up and cutting off the last part - WTF?Huh?

    OK sod this!


    Reconvert to mpeg-4, its due to the compression, sometimes the decoder does not decode the video and sound right, if the video has been compressed with a poor codec. Re-encode to mpeg4 that is the best format to use for streaming.   

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #11 - May 02, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Thanks for watching my post: if you enjoy the music, but could do without the God bits, it's Alice Coltrane's last album:
    http://www.amazon.com/Translinear-Light-Alice-Coltrane/dp/B0002SLWZM

    Hassan, is that video by you? I ask because you sound suspiciously like that Brown guy who Ned posted earlier -- maybe a similar part of England. Anyway, I will rate it Smiley

    Love and light,

    The tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #12 - May 02, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Thanks for watching my post: if you enjoy the music, but could do without the God bits, it's Alice Coltrane's last album:
    http://www.amazon.com/Translinear-Light-Alice-Coltrane/dp/B0002SLWZM

    Hassan, is that video by you? I ask because you sound suspiciously like that Brown guy who Ned posted earlier -- maybe a similar part of England. Anyway, I will rate it Smiley

    Love and light,

    The tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/



    It's the metaphorical me  grin12
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #13 - May 02, 2009, 05:29 PM

    ps - yes it's me Smiley
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #14 - May 02, 2009, 05:36 PM

    lol I'm getting a few Muslims already pouring hate and scorn on me for saying that 'some' Muslims say it is metaphorical - LOL I can't win can I Cheesy

    Anything I say is wrong in their eyes!

    When I say Muslims take it literally I get attacked!

    When I say Muslims take it metaphorically I get attacked!

    WTF?Huh?Huh? ROFL

    NewUC (4 minutes ago)
    discussislam; you're a shit liar! Nothing in Quran is metaphorical, and you will enjoy the Hell!

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #15 - May 02, 2009, 07:47 PM

    lol I'm getting a few Muslims already pouring hate and scorn on me for saying that 'some' Muslims say it is metaphorical - LOL I can't win can I Cheesy

    Anything I say is wrong in their eyes!

    When I say Muslims take it literally I get attacked!

    When I say Muslims take it metaphorically I get attacked!

    WTF?Huh?Huh? ROFL

    NewUC (4 minutes ago)
    discussislam; you're a shit liar! Nothing in Quran is metaphorical, and you will enjoy the Hell!




    ROFL.  I just read all the comments - I really suspect that that person didn't know what metaphorical meant, he/she just understood that you were criticising the Qur'an and their knee jerked. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #16 - May 02, 2009, 07:56 PM

    I look forward to watching it! If you are partly inspired by my post last weekend, feel free to make it a response to my inaugural youtube clip:
     http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-seal-of-islam/
    I will take no offense. The dialectic is the thing!

    Tailor, I will probably write to you privately at some point because being metaphysically-oriented myself I sympathize with your approach.

    However, just a few comments in general. I think you would be a lot more convincing if you:

    a) explained your metaphysics clearly (this is the big one).

    b) acknowledged that even if people like the prophets of Israel or Muhammad, etc. were inspired by a higher consciousness or realm, they were still *human* instruments and were likely to distort that higher consciousness due to their cultural conditioning (if you've studied the phenomenology of mystical experiences and had one or two of them, I'm sure you know how easy it is for the human ego to hijack, distort and diminish a mystical experience ... within seconds, literally) ... I like your interpretations but it is very hard for me to believe that Muhammad or his companions, at the level of the material realm, understood or believed many of the things you talk about.

    I can see your work as an attempt to "transmute" the Islamic tradition, which I'm all for, but it's hard for me to deny that the *world-historical manifestation* of the Islamic revelation (and of most religions in general) was far from perfect.

    c) acknowledged that no religion is perfect, and that every religion, while it had its heyday and golden age, soon ossified into fixed forms and dogmas, and whatever inspiration was behind such religions, it soon withdrew as a result of this dogmatism -- virtually every religion lost touch with its "spirit" and with the "living Divine presence" of spiritual experience and became obsessed with "creeds" and "laws". Do you make a distinction between religion and spirituality? As a Vedantist, for me this distinction is absolutely paramount. Religion is the watering down of spirituality, as far as I and most modern Vedantist philosophers are concerned.

    And the big thing of course is that we don't really need external prophets or religions to experience the Divine ... what we need is already there within us, though studying the lives of other spiritually-inspired people can certainly be an aid (and I'll grant that religions provided an initial but immature and very culturally-conditioned starting point for the human exploration of spirituality). I actually started having major spiritual experiences long after I had already left Islam. There is hardly any acknowledgment among Muslims that people can leave Islam and continue to live ethically and spiritually very rich lives, whether they are atheists/agnostics or metaphysically-oriented mystics. (There are of course exceptions. I met Shaykha Fariha al-Jerrahi, a Sufi teacher in NYC, and told her that I had left Islam, and she was not even slightly defensive ... her reaction was along the lines of: "Well, obviously ... if you're stuck in a dogmatic framework you have to tear it down before you can experience the Divine.")

    d) explained where you stand on the role of agnosticism/atheism/skepticism in spiritual growth and development ... this is where the Abrahamic traditions run into trouble, because they see disbelief as something evil, whereas arguably the Eastern religions had schools of thought that saw atheism/agnosticism, etc. as valid spiritual paths.

    e) dealt with some of the objections to Muhammad raised by people who are NOT atheists, but in fact mystics themselves. You will find a brief critique of Muhammad in Vivekananda's "Raja Yoga" in which he claims that Muhammad was no doubt inspired, but he was untrained and he had some fanatic tendencies which people can develop when they stumble onto spiritual experiences without adequate yogic training (I believe Jung calls it "ego inflation").

    In fact my biggest beef with Muhammad and the Islamic religion is the hyperbolic and exaggerated claim that Muhammad was the last prophet and the Quran the final revelation, which you seem to support in your video but which, I suspect, hinges on your definition of "prophecy" and how it's different from regular spiritual experiences (I don't understand that part myself). This claim to being the "final" prophet (as if Divine self-disclosure is something that can ever end) is utter nonsense, given that people are having spiritual experiences to this day, given that a gazillion spiritual teachers have come after Muhammad, many of them with spiritual messages that are VASTLY superior to the Islamic religion (or even other previous religions for that matter), *including* Sufi teachers themselves (I am thinking here of people like Hazrat Inayat Khan for instance).

    As Ann Druyan, the wife of the late Carl Sagan said, the problem is not with people who believe in God or claim to know God, but with people who seem to think that they already know everything there is to know about God or who think that absolute truth has already been revealed in the past.

    One thing I have noticed about Islam is a total lack of "process" perspectives (with the exception of heretic/heterodox universalist Sufi Orders like those of Hazrat Inayat Khan), i.e. a recognition that the universe is evolving, in process, and hence the manifestation of Divine revelation is also subject to change according to changing times and changing human nature.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #17 - May 02, 2009, 09:00 PM

    Ooooh, Ned, what a lot of interesting points you make. I will respond to them in time (maybe some of them privately). If you, or anyone else here, wants a clear statement of my entire metaphysics, I have a 120 page draft of a book I can share with you if you ask by email. I'm not going to torture the rest of you with that!

    The other points are probably more interesting to address on this forum. BTW -- I have responded to your other question about problems of the Sufi masters of the past at the end of this:
     http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/the-historical-jesus/

    Hassan raised some other (currently, for my project) more interesting problems with the issue of arrogance and elitism in Sufism, which I am currently trying to write a post on. So I'll try to answer him first, then get back to you about these other points (which might take another week at worst, sorry).

    But ONE clarification about my position of the notion of "lastness" of the Seal, here. I am basically saying, in my video, something that is in keeping with standard Sufi understanding: all prophets are manifestations of the same archetype. I then go on to say that anyone can ascend to prophecy: and indeed the goal of Islamic spiritual experience is to "become" the Prophet. As the philosopher Gilles Deleuze saw the world, all life is a process of becoming someone else: if we start a job in IT, we become "the programmer", if we decide to put on a dress from Kate Moss's collection, we become Kate Moss, we become Alice, for example, when we engage in relative measurement in science. The world is still full of men who have "become" Elvis. Indeed, if you put on a Barry White album and sing along to it, you will have achieved the station of Barry Whiteness when you get your groove on and feel all sex-ay. That's becoming White. And the spiritual goal of the Muslims is to be a bit like those instances, only for a particular goal: to "become" Muhammed. Many Muslims actually understand this -- but only unconsciously -- and this is manifested in superficial imitation of how he dressed, wore his beard, went to the toilet and brushed his teeth.

    I am saying he is called the "last" prophet because his revelation is a virtual reality helmet that you can put on and experience. And so after this event, everyone becomes an Ali, rather than a prophet.

    Of course, in the video, I don't deal with the problems inherent in this. There is much more to "becoming" Muhammed. And the becoming is really dangerous, leading to heaven or hell.

    I can imagine ways in which this idea would sound really heavy to people here Wink But the important point is that I treat "lastness" in a special way that is distinct from claiming there are no more direct ways of contacting God, which is a tendency in "orthodox" views.

    The Tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/


    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #18 - May 02, 2009, 09:18 PM

    Oh, and a last point: I am saying that our access to Prophecy is through the "virtual reality" of the Seal. I am not negating the fact that there are a great number (an infinite number) of other kinds of spiritual experiences. I'm just talking about Prophecy here, which has a whole range of peculiar properties within the prophetic narratives of history.

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #19 - May 02, 2009, 09:30 PM

    Tailor, I'll definitely be interested in your thesis, and I'll get in touch with you via your blog.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #20 - May 02, 2009, 09:58 PM

    lol I'm getting a few Muslims already pouring hate and scorn on me for saying that 'some' Muslims say it is metaphorical - LOL I can't win can I Cheesy

    Anything I say is wrong in their eyes!

    When I say Muslims take it literally I get attacked!

    When I say Muslims take it metaphorically I get attacked!

    WTF?Huh?Huh? ROFL

    NewUC (4 minutes ago)
    discussislam; you're a shit liar! Nothing in Quran is metaphorical, and you will enjoy the Hell!




    ROFL.  I just read all the comments - I really suspect that that person didn't know what metaphorical meant, he/she just understood that you were criticising the Qur'an and their knee jerked. 


    He left another nice comment on my channel lol

    NewUC
    discussislam; You r a liar!
    Enjoy Hell, it was created for you and has no meaning if left Empty!
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #21 - May 03, 2009, 01:40 AM

    I thought of this ayah earlier, but didn't remember where it was in the Qur'an, until someone cited it in the comments of Hass's vid.

    Quote from: Qur'an, Surah Aali Imran, 3:7
    He it is Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are decisive verses; they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.'

    Okay, notice the giant period in between the italicized text. As I expect Hass and many of you to be familiar with this, the period is not in the Arabic texts, and it can be read (and sometimes is) "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge"

    I don't have any commentary, just thought I'd throw it out there.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #22 - May 03, 2009, 07:33 AM

    I thought of this ayah earlier, but didn't remember where it was in the Qur'an, until someone cited it in the comments of Hass's vid.

    Quote from: Qur'an, Surah Aali Imran, 3:7
    He it is Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are decisive verses; they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.'

    Okay, notice the giant period in between the italicized text. As I expect Hass and many of you to be familiar with this, the period is not in the Arabic texts, and it can be read (and sometimes is) "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge"

    I don't have any commentary, just thought I'd throw it out there.


    That's right, and this verse is the corner-stone of many Sufi mystics arguments that only a very select few know the hidden meanings.


  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #23 - May 03, 2009, 09:48 AM

    I thought of this ayah earlier, but didn't remember where it was in the Qur'an, until someone cited it in the comments of Hass's vid.

    Quote from: Qur'an, Surah Aali Imran, 3:7
    He it is Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are decisive verses; they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.'

    Okay, notice the giant period in between the italicized text. As I expect Hass and many of you to be familiar with this, the period is not in the Arabic texts, and it can be read (and sometimes is) "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge"

    I don't have any commentary, just thought I'd throw it out there.


    That's right, and this verse is the corner-stone of many Sufi mystics arguments that only a very select few know the hidden meanings.


    I know some Sufis interpret that verse in this way: that, because their techniques effectively allow them to "become" God, then only they know it.

    But I don't read it this way at all. This verse is very important for me, as it explains how Prophecy works. In a nutshell, all ordinary life is interpretation: when I, for example, go to the fridge to get a bottle of milk, I am interpreting a number of signs that are put before me "fridge", "milk", "bottle", according to a value system, if you like: that these things are what we normally take them to be. It looks like a one-to-one mapping, but it is still a (prosaic, literalist) interpretation. I could get all metaphoric in even this action and say -- milk represents wisdom and the bottle represents the Holy Books -- and, using this interpretation of my actions, feel there is a spiritual aspect to my journey to the fridge. This is another interpretation. We interpret all the time -- if we didn't, schools would not exist, because teaching is the process of building up an interpretation.

    But Prophecy (along with madness) is the limit of human interaction with language, and at Prophecy: there is no interpretation. There are no metaphors at all -- because even a literalist reading is metaphoric, in the sense given within the theory of literature: metaphor = interpretation = swapping one sign for another. In prophecy, there is only signs, no swapping.

    If you are interested, I wrote this argument down in this blog piece a while ago. It begins metaphorically and then, at the end, moves to this final argument:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/the-prophetic-voice-madness-and-the-brother-of-lying/


    The Tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/










    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #24 - May 03, 2009, 10:02 AM

    If you want to link to your site just put the link in a signature. That way you wont have to add it to every post manually. Profile >> Forum Profile >> Signature, etc.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #25 - May 03, 2009, 10:14 AM

    I thought of this ayah earlier, but didn't remember where it was in the Qur'an, until someone cited it in the comments of Hass's vid.

    Quote from: Qur'an, Surah Aali Imran, 3:7
    He it is Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are decisive verses; they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.'

    Okay, notice the giant period in between the italicized text. As I expect Hass and many of you to be familiar with this, the period is not in the Arabic texts, and it can be read (and sometimes is) "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge"

    I don't have any commentary, just thought I'd throw it out there.


    That's right, and this verse is the corner-stone of many Sufi mystics arguments that only a very select few know the hidden meanings.


    I know some Sufis interpret that verse in this way: that, because their techniques effectively allow them to "become" God, then only they know it.

    But I don't read it this way at all. This verse is very important for me, as it explains how Prophecy works. In a nutshell, all ordinary life is interpretation: when I, for example, go to the fridge to get a bottle of milk, I am interpreting a number of signs that are put before me "fridge", "milk", "bottle", according to a value system, if you like: that these things are what we normally take them to be. It looks like a one-to-one mapping, but it is still a (prosaic, literalist) interpretation. I could get all metaphoric in even this action and say -- milk represents wisdom and the bottle represents the Holy Books -- and, using this interpretation of my actions, feel there is a spiritual aspect to my journey to the fridge. This is another interpretation. We interpret all the time -- if we didn't, schools would not exist, because teaching is the process of building up an interpretation.

    But Prophecy (along with madness) is the limit of human interaction with language, and at Prophecy: there is no interpretation. There are no metaphors at all -- because even a literalist reading is metaphoric, in the sense given within the theory of literature: metaphor = interpretation = swapping one sign for another. In prophecy, there is only signs, no swapping.

    If you are interested, I wrote this argument down in this blog piece a while ago. It begins metaphorically and then, at the end, moves to this final argument:
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/the-prophetic-voice-madness-and-the-brother-of-lying/


    The Tailor

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/


    I have tried to understand the various Sufi mystical, esoteric, metaphysical etc... writings but although they sound profound and wise - such as Rumi, inb Arabi and others - I am always left feeling that they are just fine words but have no real meaning to me and my life.

    Of course I have been told so many times that one must experience the truths that people describe in order for them to become real or have meaning to me (I believe Rumi said "Now that I'm 'in love' I reject all that I ever wrote about 'love' previously) - but I have not experienced anything that makes these things anything more than pretty words.

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #26 - May 03, 2009, 11:42 AM

    Peace Hassan,

    I have tried to understand the various Sufi mystical, esoteric, metaphysical etc... writings but although they sound profound and wise - such as Rumi, inb Arabi and others - I am always left feeling that they are just fine words but have no real meaning to me and my life.

    Of course I have been told so many times that one must experience the truths that people describe in order for them to become real or have meaning to me (I believe Rumi said "Now that I'm 'in love' I reject all that I ever wrote about 'love' previously) - but I have not experienced anything that makes these things anything more than pretty words.


    But you must have converted to Islam for a reason, because you sensed something emotionally. Surely you signed up not just for the uniform, the beard and the wives? In my experience, the story goes like this: when people convert, they feel "something" emotional, and then think -- oh well, maybe the authorities at the Church or the Mosque know what this "something" is -- and then sign up, expecting to be told. Then, after a number of years with an ummah, they have all memories of that "something" wiped out, and a paranoid father-complex installed in its place! Then, if the convert is sensible, they run away from all that. If not, they will continue to pray, but won't feel anything.

    But, at the beginning, before making that convert's shahada, "something" was there.

    An atheist will say:  the "something" was some kind of mental aberration, or the result of some form of psychological imbalance (people often convert after the stress of a loved one passing away, for instance). But the atheist won't deny that there was "something" felt.

    I actually don't disagree with the atheist on this point: all experiences are of course psychological, including that "something". But what if that psychological experience actually coincided with the Truth of the matter. What if that mental aberration, wiped out by the authorities, was, in fact, exactly an emotional experience of -- what Sufis call -- the Real.

    If you converted after having such a feeling, then you will at least understand why Rumi is trying to describe something emotional with a bunch of pretty words, even if you count such a feeling as misguided.

    But I observe that the authorities at the Mosque also stamp out these feelings in their way, so they also view that "something" as misguidance. And who wants to wear their uniform?


    The Tailor



    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #27 - May 03, 2009, 01:04 PM

    Salams Tailor,

    Well actually I was born a Muslim (though I know that is a problematic statement). However you are right, I did go through a sort of conversion of sorts at the age of 20 when I started taking Islam seriously and began praying etc...

    Yes I was drawn to religion (Islam happened to be the one within easy reach for me coming from a Muslim family) because of a need to fill a spiritual yearning. To understand this sense of wonder and mystery and find where I fit in. I loved the passages of the Qur'an that talked of God as light and being closer to us than our jugular vein and answering the call of the caller etc...

    I was also trying to find out who I was, and get a sense of identity, direction and security.

    the story goes like this: when people convert, they feel "something" emotional, and then think -- oh well, maybe the authorities at the Church or the Mosque know what this "something" is -- and then sign up, expecting to be told. Then, after a number of years with an ummah, they have all memories of that "something" wiped out, and a paranoid father-complex installed in its place! Then, if the convert is sensible, they run away from all that. If not, they will continue to pray, but won't feel anything.


    I think that's a very good summary (even for even born Muslims who then start practising as it is similar to 'converting')

    I wrote this in my story that I posted online: (Chapter 5 : http://abooali.wordpress.com/chapter-5/ )

    "I began to reflect on my search for meaning and truth, how I had felt when I first became a practicing Muslim, on the threshold to a higher understanding of God and spiritual enlightenment. I realized that somewhere along the way I had been led astray. Obsessed by form and ritual, worried whether my soap contained pig fat or the food I just bought contained E numbers. Without noticing, I had been diverted, inch by inch, until I was now so far removed from my search for God, I had completely lost Him. The very things that had led me to Islam, my heart and mind, now seemed to be locked away in a little box, as though I was afraid of them, afraid to think for myself, afraid to step outside a life of imitation and conformity to a set of rules that I hoped would bring me salvation."

    Looking back at when I first started practising, I was young and naive. Now I am old and cynical. Islam holds absolutely no charm for me anymore. It may well be a useful means for others to get in touch with their feelings of spirituality - but not for me. It is too firmly tied to whatever it was that Muhammad experienced - and as a result 7th century Arabia. It's dangers (Literalism, empty rituals, divisiveness etc...) are greater than any benefits it might offer.

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #28 - May 03, 2009, 01:19 PM

    I don't know why I'm getting so many hate messages on Youtube over my latest video?

    In fact I don't understand why Muslims can't see that I'm not a hater - and always make a huge effort to be concilatory.

    Yet I still get this sort of thing:

    Muslim4ever59
    Allah has reserved a punishment for you and other hypocrites.
    22: 19 As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods


    and:

    NewUC
    discussislam; Don't you have anything to do other than showing your stupidity?

    You stupid, u r basing your arguments on your points of viewa then claims it is the Muslims point of view, you are shit liar!

  • Re: It's Metaphorical!
     Reply #29 - May 03, 2009, 01:37 PM

    I don't know why I'm getting so many hate messages on Youtube over my latest video?

    In fact I don't understand why Muslims can't see that I'm not a hater - and always make a huge effort to be concilatory.

    Yet I still get this sort of thing:

    Muslim4ever59
    Allah has reserved a punishment for you and other hypocrites.
    22: 19 As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods


    and:

    NewUC
    discussislam; Don't you have anything to do other than showing your stupidity?

    You stupid, u r basing your arguments on your points of viewa then claims it is the Muslims point of view, you are shit liar!




    A non muslim taking a critical approach to islam=a non muslim taking a critical approach to islam. Whether you are calling for muslims to be dragged off to the dungeons or for reform you are the same person in most peoples minds, you are rejecting the truth. They cant distinguish between the former and latter and thus you are wasting your time in attempting neutrality.
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