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 Topic: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)

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  • Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     OP - May 11, 2009, 12:37 PM
    OK, Rayback.

    I say Hell is an excessively cruel and unjust punishment.

    For God to keep people alive so that they can be made to suffer agonising pain over and over, because God Himself failed to provide undeniable proof of his existence (let alone undeniable proof that Islam is true) is quite clearly an excessively cruel and unjust punishment. (and that's putting it mildly)

    What say you Rayback?

    Smiley
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #1 - May 11, 2009, 12:41 PM
    To you Hell might be excessive, but to another person it might be just the penalty that a particular dude deserves.

    By the way, thanks for doings the honours.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #2 - May 11, 2009, 12:46 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 12:41 PM
    To you Hell might be excessive, but to another person it might be just the penalty that a particular dude deserves.



    Who would deserve such a punishment?

    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 12:41 PM
    By the way, thanks for doings the honours.


    You're welcome Smiley
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #3 - May 11, 2009, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 12:41 PM
    To you Hell might be excessive, but to another person it might be just the penalty that a particular dude deserves.




    btw that is not an answer.

    You need to prove that Hell is indeed a Just punishment  and not excessively cruel - and that God is Just as you claimed.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #4 - May 11, 2009, 01:00 PM
    I will make it more clear:

    Like I said, perhaps to you no person on Earth can ever deserves to be thrown in Hell.

    But I think if you were to ask around in society, even Atheists will tell you, that although they do not believe in Hell, they too think that some nasty people need to burn in the Fire.

    I have asked my Atheist friends at the University about the concept of Hell.

    They denied existence of Hell.

    However,  when pressed, they most of them admitted that Hell would indeed be a fitting end for certain few individuals who had carried out unimaginable crimes.

    Obviously, you dont agree with them.

    Thats your choice.

    Therefore, you calling it "unfair" does not make it unfair.

    You are not the only judge.

    The Supreme Court has 9 Honourable Judges.

    That was no sarcasm. This is a serious debate, so far.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #5 - May 11, 2009, 01:15 PM
    So what kind of crimes deserve Hell then?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #6 - May 11, 2009, 01:18 PM
    I don't think many of those people actually think about hell when they state they would send this or that person to hell. You are better off describing hell in depth to them and then asking them if said person deserved that place. The number of people who say 'yes' will most likely be reduced, of course there will always be people who would still agree. However the fact that there are people who say 'no' goes to show that there are even humans are more 'all-loving' and 'merciful' than god himself.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #7 - May 11, 2009, 01:20 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:00 PM
    I will make it more clear:

    Like I said, perhaps to you no person on Earth can ever deserves to be thrown in Hell.

    But I think if you were to ask around in society, even Atheists will tell you, that although they do not believe in Hell, they too think that some nasty people need to burn in the Fire.

    I have asked my Atheist friends at the University about the concept of Hell.

    They denied existence of Hell.

    However,  when pressed, they most of them admitted that Hell would indeed be a fitting end for certain few individuals who had carried out unimaginable crimes.

    Obviously, you dont agree with them.

    Thats your choice.

    Therefore, you calling it "unfair" does not make it unfair.

    You are not the only judge.

    The Supreme Court has 9 Honourable Judges.

    That was no sarcasm. This is a serious debate, so far.




    What so and so says or doesn't say is not evidence.

    The evidence that it is unjust and cruel are very clear. It is not simply my opinion, but the conclusion of reason, logic, and justice.

    First of all Justice:

    It is not justice to punish someone for something that is not their fault, namely not believing.

    Belief is subjective. There is no undeniable evidence of God and there is no undeniable evidence Islam is true.

    Therefore an unbeliever cannot be blamed for not believing.

    Secondly Excessive punishment. An infinite torture for a finite "crime" is excessive.

    Even if they were rapists, mass murderers etc... it is bad enough, but  infinite torture for not believing in something that is not undeniable - is even worse!

    You will not find any Supreme Court Judges ruling that even the worst rapist be tortured for the rest of his life. (Not even some despotic dictatorship).

    Yet God does that - and far worse! He does not just let them die - or punish them until they die. He keeps them alive forever! So they can be tortured in agnoy for ever.

    Hell is both unjust and excessive.

    If you wish to disprove that, you need to bring a proper argument - not  what so-and-so-says.

    Show me how it is Just?

    Show me how it is not excessive?


  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #8 - May 11, 2009, 01:21 PM
    No cheating cheetah.

    You are good, but let Hassan brush his skills here. He specifially requested this topic.

    The boy is young and passionate. He has a bright future in the arena.

    I think its his favourite stick with which he beats the deluded religious fanatics.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #9 - May 11, 2009, 01:22 PM
    Hassan already asked you the same question and you didn't answer it.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #10 - May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    The question is subjective.

    I have said in so some many words.

    One man's villain is another man's hero.

    But you guys want to force your stuff only.

    Im only saying be open minded.

    Dont close your brain.
    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #11 - May 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Ok.

    Hassan's words are in quotes.
    My replies in bold black.


    "What so and so says or doesn't say is not evidence."

    Exactly. Your claim does not make Hell an unjust penalty.

    "The evidence that it is unjust and cruel are very clear."

    They are not. To many others they are wishful thinking.

    "It is not simply my opinion, but the conclusion of reason, logic, and justice."

    Yes. Indeed. It is a conclusion of YOUR reasoning. It is NOT a conclusion of everyone's reasoning. There is no concensus on this issue.


    "First of all Justice:

    It is not justice to punish someone for something that is not their fault, namely not believing."

    I totally agree. It would be cruel to burn an innocent person.

    Hell is only for those who are at fault.

    "Belief is subjective."

    Bingo.

    It is YOUR belief that Hell is excessive.

    "There is no undeniable evidence of God and there is no undeniable evidence Islam is true."

    Hassan. Please dont go all over the place. Read the title of your own thread.

    If you wish to talk about God then I dont mind. But lets finish this, shall we?

    "Therefore an unbeliever cannot be blamed for not believing."

    Unless he deliberately closed his eyes to the truth.

    "Secondly Excessive punishment.

    An infinite torture for a finite "crime" is bad enough (even if they were rapists, mass murderers etc...) But  infinite torture for not believing in something that is not undeniably clear is excessive."

    I agree with you.

    A just God would not burn anyone for simply not having believed in their life on Earth.

    "You will not find any Supreme Court Judges ruling that even the worst rapist be tortured for the rest of his life. (Unless perhaps in a despotic country)."

    Look again. You will find such penalties handed out.

    "God's punishment is far worse than that - he does not just let them die - or punish them untill they die.

    He keeps them alive forever! So they can be tortured in agnoy for ever.

    Hell is both unjust and excessive.

    If you wish to disprove that, you need to bring more evidence than what so an so says.

    Show me how it is Just?

    Show me how it is not excessive?"

    What will "show it" to you?

    Most intelligent people, including reasonable Atheists, do not say it is excessive. They say its fair for certain nasty people.

    You claiming that Hell is an unjust place to which NO ONE deserve to go  is a value judgement. It is not an objective argument. Other judges disagree. They prefer Hell remain opened. Hassan clearly doesnt.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #12 - May 11, 2009, 01:49 PM
    Quote
    I totally agree. It would be cruel to burn an innocent person.

    Hell is only for those who are at fault.


    And who are those people?  What faults deserve eternal punishment in Hell?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #13 - May 11, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Some major screw ups.

    Each Judge on the Supreme Court would decide those for himself.



    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #14 - May 11, 2009, 01:55 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Some major screw ups.

    Each Judge on the Supreme Court would decide those for himself.




    Why can't you answer the question?  Its a very simple question - what kind of wrongdoing deserves eternal punishment in Hell?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #15 - May 11, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Like I said, this is Hassan's thread.

    He was desperate to get Hell out of the way.

    So please, just sit back, have some popcorn, and watch him "rip me".

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #16 - May 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
    Hassan is to nice to give you the ripping you so deserve lol but I will hold back until he realises that you are not worth the serious approach.  popcorn
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #17 - May 11, 2009, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Like I said, this is Hassan's thread.

    He was desperate to get Hell out of the way.

    So please, just sit back, have some popcorn, and watch him "rip me".




    Like I said Hassan already asked you this question and you failed to answer.  What's the problem, anyway - its a very simple question.  Anyone who believes in Hell and has a mental age greater than 12 has some idea of what crimes Hell is used to punish.  Are you perhaps ashamed to answer the question because you know your answers will sound pathetic to a skeptical audience?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #18 - May 11, 2009, 02:09 PM
    I have given an answer.

    You simply missed it. Cheetah.


    Anyway, BerberElla.

    Im only indulging Hassan, because he said he was serious about discussing this subject properly.

    Obviously, it has been on his mind.

    And I would not run away from debate, especially from a nice guy like Hassan who simply asked to talk about our respective beliefs about Hell.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #19 - May 11, 2009, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 11, 2009, 02:09 PM
    I have given an answer.

    You simply missed it.


    Anyway, BerberElla.

    Im only indulging Hassan, because he said he was serious about discussing this subject properly.

    Obviously, it has been on his mind.

    And I would not run away from debate, especially from a nice guy like Hassan who simply asked to talk about our respective beliefs about Hell.




    But you are not serious, which was my whole point.  Hassan is a nice guy, he will give you the benefit of the doubt even though it's clear to many of us that you are a troll with no real interest in debate.

    No, I will wait until he has realised that before I rip you to you pieces.  Afro
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #20 - May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #21 - May 11, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Quote
    I have given an answer.

    You simply missed it. Cheetah.


    You didn't give an answer, you gave a meaningless response which evaded the question. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #22 - May 11, 2009, 02:14 PM
    I did answer.

    You didn't get its meaning which is why it was meaningless to you.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #23 - May 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM
    Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?


    Hell.  Wink

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #24 - May 11, 2009, 02:19 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on May 11, 2009, 02:10 PM
    I will wait until he has realised that before I rip you to you pieces.  Afro


    You are gonna give me Hell?

    Oh no.

    I think its time for me to start repenting.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #25 - May 11, 2009, 02:27 PM
    If it holds that Hell is subjective and those who deseve to go there is a matter of personal opinion, then so too must be the same for heaven, and who deserves to go there.


    If something is so subjective, so that anymeaning can be bent to its cause, it doesnt really mean anything at all does it?
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #26 - May 11, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Rayback, I have a message for you.

    Quote from: Allah in a booming angry voice
    Stop trolling in my name puny human or there will be no virgins for you in Heaven.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #27 - May 11, 2009, 02:29 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on May 11, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Rayback, I have a message for you.

    Quote from: Allah in a booming angry voice
    Stop trolling in my name puny human or there will be no virgins for you in Heaven.


    Cheesy
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #28 - May 11, 2009, 02:36 PM
    Cheetah can be so sunny sometimes.

    Thats why I like the animal.

    Quote from: Glen on May 11, 2009, 02:27 PM
    If it holds that Hell is subjective and those who deseve to go there is a matter of personal opinion, then so too must be the same for heaven, and who deserves to go there.

    If something is so subjective, so that any meaning can be bent to its cause, it doesnt really mean anything at all does it?


    Good attempt there Glen.

    You show an ability to reason.

    You would be right, if, as you rightly said: "if" Hell itself was subjective.

    However,

    Hell is not subjective.

    But who actually deserves to go there and for how long is.

    That is what we are discussing.

    Can I request you guys not to aid Hassan.

    The boy has shown promise to take care of himself.

    Allow him to win the battle by himself.

    He seems a good sport.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment? (Esp for Rayback)
     Reply #29 - May 11, 2009, 02:39 PM
    Hell is subjective.  Roll Eyes

    Each religion sets it out differently, people have different imaginations so their image of hell will be a personal one, so of course hell itself is subjective.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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