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 Topic: Prove We Have Creator

 (Read 20786 times)
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  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #120 - May 23, 2009, 11:53 PM

    No, let's start again:

    Everything around us that we can see, the trees, the earth, the stars, the sun; they are all physical things. They were all caused by a cause. I can't think of a physical thing which has not been caused by something else, so I infer that all physical things must have a cause.

    Because all physical things have a cause, there would have to be an infinite regress of causes, since "everything physical has a cause". However, there would not be a point at which we could say "...And this was the first physical thing that there ever was and which did not have a cause" because I have already inferred that all physical things have a cause. So having an infinite regress has not solved the problem. You could keep asking "...And what caused that cause?"

    Yet there must be something that started off the chain. As I have demonstrated above, it cannot be anything physical, since all physical things have been caused themselves. Therefore, I infer the existence of an extra-physical dimension. The cause must be found in this. And the cause that is found in this dimension must be uncaused.

    Questions?

    In the first part I bolded, you are implying that the property of an element is also the property of a set of those elements.
    You are jumping from: "every physical event has a cause" to "the set of all physical events has a cause" as if such set MUST be a physical event itself.
    Such a big assumption requires a hypothesis because it's not inferred from anything.
    It would be like saying: since every natural number is limited, then the set of all natural numbers MUST be limited.

    Now, let's take for granted that the set of all physical events is also a physical event itself.
    Then, yes, it must have a non-physical cause.

    But you pulled out of nowhere that such a non-physical cause MUST be uncaused.

    Why MUST it be uncaused, exactly?
    Even if we assume that the "set of all physical events" is a physical event (and, thus, requires a cause)... You cannot logically say that "the set of all physical events + some non-physical events" is a physical event at all, so you cannot infer that there is NOT an infinite regression of non-physical causes.

    And that doesn't work not even if you claim that "the set of all physical events and non-physical events is a physical event" because, then, you would have that "all physical events + their supposed uncaused cause" is a physical event itself. And it would be uncaused. Which contradicts hypothesis #1 that all physical events have a cause.


    The very thing you highlighted in bold explains why the set of all physical things must be caused.

    Because the physical universe must be caused by an uncaused cause in order for the current existence of anything physical to make sense, I hypothesize that there is an extra-physical uncaused cause.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #121 - May 24, 2009, 12:18 AM

    The very thing you highlighted in bold explains why the set of all physical things must be caused.

    Because the physical universe must be caused by an uncaused cause in order for the current existence of anything physical to make sense, I hypothesize that there is an extra-physical uncaused cause.

    Why?
    What kind of demonstration is "there must be an uncaused cause for the current existence of anything physical to make sense"?

    Make sense according to what rules?

    Show me such logical necessity in small steps. Don't use rhetorics like "it's evident"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #122 - May 24, 2009, 12:22 AM

    And, the part I bolded does NOT explain why the set of everything physical must be caused.

    Are you saying that "the set of everything physical" is something physical itself?
    So, it's an element of itself?

    Logically speaking claiming such a thing is not an evident banality like you want to make it sound.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #123 - May 24, 2009, 11:06 AM

    And, the part I bolded does NOT explain why the set of everything physical must be caused.

    Are you saying that "the set of everything physical" is something physical itself?
    So, it's an element of itself?

    Logically speaking claiming such a thing is not an evident banality like you want to make it sound.


    Physical things need a cause.

    P1 is physical. It was caused by P2. But P2 is physical and needs to be caused. So P3 caused P2. But P3 is physical. So P4 caused P3. But P4 is physical, and therefore needs to be caused. So P5 caused P4 (I hope your seeing a pattern here). But P5 is physical, so P6 caused P5. P6 is physical but is uncaused. P6 is physical and therefore needs a cause, so P7 caused P6...

    I could go on if you want me to...

    Basically, if all physical things are caused, then a set of physical things will also be caused.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #124 - May 24, 2009, 11:21 AM

    Basically, if all physical things are caused, then a set of physical things will also be caused.

    Nope.
    Unless you take by hypothesis that the set of physical things is a physical thing itself.

    And you still try to pass this as a banality, which is not.

    Example:
    a set of numbers is not a number
    a set of spherical things is not spherical
    a set of indivisible things is not indivisible
    a set of limited sets is not necessarily a limited set

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #125 - May 24, 2009, 01:22 PM

    Whatever the cause was, it wasn't caused by the egotistical maniac desert fairytale gawd we read of in man-made books -_-

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #126 - May 24, 2009, 01:51 PM

    Whatever the cause was, it wasn't caused by the egotistical maniac desert fairytale gawd we read of in man-made books -_-


    Probably not as bad, no. But also not as good as the "omni-benevolent" God we hear about in religious philosophy.

    I would say it is an eternal, uncaused, personal, all-powerful, all-knowing cause.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #127 - May 24, 2009, 01:56 PM

    Basically, if all physical things are caused, then a set of physical things will also be caused.

    Nope.
    Unless you take by hypothesis that the set of physical things is a physical thing itself.

    And you still try to pass this as a banality, which is not.

    Example:
    a set of numbers is not a number
    a set of spherical things is not spherical
    a set of indivisible things is not indivisible
    a set of limited sets is not necessarily a limited set


    Can a group of finite numbers constitute an infinite set of numbers?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #128 - May 24, 2009, 06:34 PM

    Basically, if all physical things are caused, then a set of physical things will also be caused.

    Nope.
    Unless you take by hypothesis that the set of physical things is a physical thing itself.

    And you still try to pass this as a banality, which is not.

    Example:
    a set of numbers is not a number
    a set of spherical things is not spherical
    a set of indivisible things is not indivisible
    a set of limited sets is not necessarily a limited set


    Can a group of finite numbers constitute an infinite set of numbers?

    No. And?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Prove We Have Creator
     Reply #129 - May 24, 2009, 11:46 PM

    Basically, if all physical things are caused, then a set of physical things will also be caused.

    Nope.
    Unless you take by hypothesis that the set of physical things is a physical thing itself.

    And you still try to pass this as a banality, which is not.

    Example:
    a set of numbers is not a number
    a set of spherical things is not spherical
    a set of indivisible things is not indivisible
    a set of limited sets is not necessarily a limited set


    Can a group of finite numbers constitute an infinite set of numbers?

    No. And?


    So how does a group of physical events constitute an eternity?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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