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 Topic: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!

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  • Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     OP - May 22, 2009, 06:33 PM

    This is a fatwa from Islamonline but I posted it in the Religion & God section as it mentions all the nasty stuff the Quran has to say about Jews!

    This fatwa is issued by Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, a man of great importance & although he has a lot of negative stuff to say about Jews, all he does is quote from the Quran.


    Quote
    Question and Answer Details
       
    Name of Questioner   Heba
    Title   Jews as Depicted in the Quran
    Topic   Ideologies, Movements & Religions, Sciences of the Quran
    Question   Dear Sheikh! As-Salam `Alaykum. Jews have played a considerable role throughout the history, before and after the advent of Islam. The Qur?an referred to them in many places. What, according to the Qur?an, are the main characteristics and qualities of Jews?
    Date   22/Mar/2004
    Name of Counsellor   `Atiyyah Saqr


    Answer
    Wa `Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh.
    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
    Dear questioner, we are really pleased to have your question and we pray to Allah to make our humble efforts, exerted solely for His Sake, come up to your expectation.

    As regards the question you posed, the following is the fatwa issued by Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, in which he states the following:

    The Quran has specified a considerable deal of its verses to talking about Jews, their personal qualities and characteristics. The Quranic description of Jews is quite impartial; praising them in some occasions where they deserve praise and condemning them in other occasions where they practice blameworthy acts. Yet, the latter occasions outnumbered the former, due to their bad qualities and the heinous acts they used to commit.

    The Quran praises them on the verse that reads: " And verily We gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favored them above (all) peoples." (Al-Jathiyah:16) i.e. the peoples of their time.

    Among the bad qualities they were characterized with are the following:

    1. They used to fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah. Allah Almighty says: " That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly." (Al-`Imran:75) Also: ?The Jews say: Allah's hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will. (Al-Ma`idah:64)

    In another verse Almighty Allah says:"Verily Allah heard the saying of those who said, (when asked for contributions to the war): "Allah, forsooth, is poor, and we are rich! We shall record their saying with their slaying of the Prophets wrongfully and We shall say: Taste ye the punishment of burning!" (Al-`Imran:181)

    2. They love to listen to lies. Concerning this Allah says: "and of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk" (Al-Ma?idah: 41)

    3. Disobeying Almighty Allah and never observing His commands. Allah says: "And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts." (Al-Ma?idah: 13)

    4. Disputing and quarreling. This is clear in the verse that reads: "Their Prophet said unto them: Lo! Allah hath raised up Saul to be a king for you. They said: How can he have kingdom over us when we are more deserving of the kingdom than he is, since he hath not been given wealth enough" (Al-Baqarah: 247)

    5. Hiding the truth and standing for misleading. This can be understood from the verse that reads: "distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture." (Al-`Imran: 78)

    6. Staging rebellion against the Prophets and rejecting their guidance. This is clear in the verse: "And when ye said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly."(Al-Baqarah: 55)

    7. Hypocrisy. In a verse, we read: "And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock." (Al-Baqarah: 14) In another verse, we read: "Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practice it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense" (Al-Baqarah: 44)

    8. Giving preference to their own interests over the rulings of religion and the dictates of truth. Allah says: "when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay" (Al-Baqarah: 87)

    9. Wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them. This is clear in the verse that reads: "Many of the People of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them." (Al-Baqarah: 109)

    10. They feel pain to see others in happiness and are gleeful when others are afflicted with a calamity. This is clear in the verse that reads: "If a lucky chance befall you, it is evil unto them, and if disaster strike you they rejoice thereat." (Al-`Imran:120)

    11. They are known of their arrogance and haughtiness. They claimed to be the sons and of Allah and His beloved ones. Allah tells us about this in the verse that reads: "The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones." (Al-Maidah: 18)

    12. Utilitarianism and opportunism are among their innate traits. This is clear in the verse that reads: "And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences." (An-Nisa?: 161)

    13. Their impoliteness and indecent way of speech is beyond description. Referring to this, the Qur?anic verse reads:"Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.(An-Nisa?:46)

    14. It is easy for them to slay people and kill innocents. Nothing in the world is dear to their hearts than shedding blood and murdering human beings. They never give up this trait even with the Messengers and the Prophets. Allah says: "and slew the prophets wrongfully." (Al-Baqarah: 61)

    15. They are merciless and heartless. In this meaning, the Quranic verse explains:"Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness." (Al-Baqarah: 74)

    16. They never keep their promises or fulfill their words. Almighty Allah says: "Is it ever so that when ye make a covenant a party of you set it aside. The truth is, most of them believe not." (Al-Baqarah: 100)

    17. They rush hurriedly to sins and compete in transgression. Allah says: "They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!" (Al-MAidah:79)

    18. Cowardice and their love for this worldly life are their undisputable traits. To this, the Quran refers when saying: "Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah. That is because they are a folk who understand not. They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified villages or from behind walls. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are divers.? (Al-Hashr:13-14) Allah Almighty also says:"And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters." (Al-Baqarah:96)

    19. Miserliness runs deep in their hearts. Describing this, the Quran states: "Or have they even a share in the Sovereignty? Then in that case, they would not give mankind even the speck on a date stone." (An-Nisa?:53)

    20. Distorting Divine Revelation and Allah?s Sacred Books. Allah says in this regard: "Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands anthem say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby." (Al-Baqara: 79)

    After this clear explanation, we would like to note that these are but some of the most famous traits of the Jews as described in the Qur?an. They have revolted against the Divine ordinances, distorted what has been revealed to them and invented new teachings which, they claimed, were much more better than what has been recorded in the Torah. It was for these traits that they found no warm reception in all countries where they tried to reside.Rather, they would either be driven out or live in isolation. It was Almighty Allah who placed on them His Wrath and made them den of humiliation due to their transgression. Almighty Allah told us that He?d send to them people who?d pour on them rain of severe punishment that would last till the Day of Resurrection. All this gives us glad tidings of the coming victory of Muslims over them once Muslims stick to strong faith and belief in Allah and adopt the modern means of technology."

    Almighty Allah knows best
    .

     

    This is an old fatwa but IMO its a very important one as it lists all the unpleasant stuff the Quran has to say about Jews, in the Quran's own words!

    I hate the Sheikh's comments at the end! finmad

    Quote from: Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr
    They have revolted against the Divine ordinances, distorted what has been revealed to them and invented new teachings which, they claimed, were much more better than what has been recorded in the Torah. It was for these traits that they found no warm reception in all countries where they tried to reside.Rather, they would either be driven out or live in isolation. It was Almighty Allah who placed on them His Wrath and made them den of humiliation due to their transgression.


    Poor Jews! They suffered so much throughout history & now they're blamed for their sufferings as they supposedly incurred Allah's wrath!  sad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #1 - May 22, 2009, 08:06 PM

    Historically, it is most often those who mistreat Jews who justify the mistreatment.
    They claim their evil acts are G-d's Will.
    And blame the victims.
     
    At this, I believe, G-d must weep.

    For His Word to all of us is to recognize our fellows as ourselves. and to treat accordingly--forebearing from doing  the harm we would not wish others to do to us [Talmud, Shabbat 31a].

    It is a shame that those who claim to have faith often fail to live by it, using it as a sword instead of a balm.

    Good Shabbos!

    Respectfully,
    History
     

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #2 - May 23, 2009, 11:48 AM

    Allah is Eric Cartman's best friend.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #3 - May 23, 2009, 12:27 PM

    It is a shame that those who claim to have faith often fail to live by it, using it as a sword instead of a balm.

    The quotes we have supplied, do exist in the Quran and hadith, and if you look at this evidence objectively, there is more anti-Jewish messages than ones that are pro.

    At best, the message is mixed, in reality it is racist.

    Why does your all powerful God allow his message to be corrupted in this fashion - you cant really blame Muslims for following this belief, particularly those who have not been exposed to the real world (for whatever reason). They are only following a different recipe to get to heaven than yourself, and attaining path to salvation should certainly not be an IQ test.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #4 - May 23, 2009, 12:46 PM

    It is also clear that Muhammad picked up a great deal of the OT stories from the Jews in Medina themselves.

    It is easy to throw all the blame on Muhammad and Muslims in order to absolve the other Abrahamic religions, but like IsLame says - why didn't God make sure his message was kept pure - and why couldn't God reveal his "Truths" to the Goyim in the way he so consistently did with the Jews?

    Or are the Goyim simply not blessed with the intellect, integrity and superior character as the Jewish people?

    I don't mean any disrespect, History - but I have always felt that the idea that God should choose a certain people for 99% of his prophets, guidance and special relationship unbecoming a Just and fair God who claims to be the God of us all.


  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #5 - May 23, 2009, 12:58 PM

    BTW History,

    I don't know if you have seen any of the videos I made, criticising some aspects of Islam (and religion in general) as I made them after leaving ummah.com

    Anyway here are six that you might find interesting. I'd really be interested in any comments you have to make about them:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TeKcFUbKIA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exz5kT47P2s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFoC8hUPB74

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2T-e-gOVR8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBe-EhLmRTU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBY5VbC6rvU

    Smiley


  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #6 - May 23, 2009, 01:35 PM

    Shalom, Hassan.
    I need be brief, as I'm off to Sabbath services (I love Shabbos!).
    There is a human tendency, Hassan, to place blame on a recognized Authority (G-d, parent, government) instead of assuming responsibility.
    "Why did G-d permit that to happen?"
    "Why did his parents let him grow up to be a criminal?"
    "Why didn't the police know and stop it?"
    "Why didn't the government act quicker?"

    There is a Jewish story that goes thus:

    Upon his death, a man comes before G-d's Throne of Judgement.
    "My G-d," he cries.  "It is horrible down there.  The wars, disease, the hatreds, the bigotry, the suffering.....Why didn't you do anything!!"
    The Heavenly court is shocked silent by the outburst.
    Then G-d gives a soft compassionate sigh and looks gently upon the man.
    "I did," G-d says, "I sent you."

    G-d, Blessed be His Name, has given us Life, Creation, and Torah ("Teachings" for ethical human behavior).  There are no greater Gifts.
    How we use them is, and must be, left to us.  Free Will is necessary if we are to mature, individually and as a species, into ethical and righteous beings.
    As we do with our children, G-d gives us the best foundation He can but must permit us our follies and mistakes if we are to become "adults."

    We received His Law.  And after millennia, I submit its Teachings for ethical and righteous human behavior are "pure" and eternally relevant.  Only Biblical "lieralists" are flawed, in their approach to understand His Teachings.  If you study all the world's major religions and philosophies, Hassan, I suggest you will find a shared Message in regard to how human beings should live and how they should treat each other.  For example, study the universality of "The Golder Rule." http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm
    The Message is true.  It need not be written with the exact same words in only one book to be "pure."

    As for why G-d choose the Jews to first deliver His Torah (Teachings), there are a number of stories and parables.  To suffice, the answer most commonly given is we were his last choice--but the only one of the peoples of ancient times who would accept them.
    As above, you may understand your question as to why G-d choose the Jews if you broaden its application:
    Why did G-d choose Galileo to demonstrate the correct position of the earth relative to the sun?
    Or why did G-d choose Shakespeare to write his plays?
    Or why did He choose Edison to create the lighbulb?
    Etc.
    The only answers may be:
    "He did. We do not know why. But thank you."  
    Or  
    "He did. We do not know why.  But I should similarly apply myself and strive for understanding and betterment of the world as did the people He chose."

    Good Shabbos.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #7 - May 23, 2009, 01:41 PM

    It is a shame that those who claim to have faith often fail to live by it, using it as a sword instead of a balm.

    The quotes we have supplied, do exist in the Quran and hadith, and if you look at this evidence objectively, there is more anti-Jewish messages than ones that are pro.

    At best, the message is mixed, in reality it is racist.

    Why does your all powerful God allow his message to be corrupted in this fashion - you cant really blame Muslims for following this belief, particularly those who have not been exposed to the real world (for whatever reason). They are only following a different recipe to get to heaven than yourself, and attaining path to salvation should certainly not be an IQ test.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #8 - May 23, 2009, 02:44 PM

    It is also clear that Muhammad picked up a great deal of the OT stories from the Jews in Medina themselves.

    It is easy to throw all the blame on Muhammad and Muslims in order to absolve the other Abrahamic religions, but like IsLame says - why didn't God make sure his message was kept pure - and why couldn't God reveal his "Truths" to the Goyim in the way he so consistently did with the Jews?

    Or are the Goyim simply not blessed with the intellect, integrity and superior character as the Jewish people?

    I don't mean any disrespect, History - but I have always felt that the idea that God should choose a certain people for 99% of his prophets, guidance and special relationship unbecoming a Just and fair God who claims to be the God of us all.


    I'm not a Jew Hass although I like quite a few stuff about Jews but I'm not very fond of their theology. Anyway, the Jews haven't exactly clashed in known history with many other faiths who didn't trouble them(I'm not taking the Jewish OT stories into account here, as their historicity is doubtful) they had a terrific relationship with not only monotheists like the Zoroastrian King Cyrus, they also happened to live in harmony with Indian polytheists for 2000+ years & even with the pre Islamic Arabs.
    To the best of my knowledge, Judaism also has universal salvation, "The righteous of all nations have a place in the world that is to come."

    If the Jews wanted to believe that the Creator of the Universe had revealed certain special stuff to them, it really doesn't hurt anyone. They don't expect the world to pay goyim taxes for disbelief, like the jizya taxes do they?

    If Christianity & later Islam wanted to plagiarize their entire theology, convert the world & condemn non believers to Hell, then thats not really their fault.

    Jews certainly didn't induce Muhammad to utilize their theology, declare himself their Last Prophet, spew a lot of hatred on Jews & other kafirs & condemn them to forcible conversion\jizya taxes in this life & Hellfire in the Afterlife, did they?

    Muhammad(or for that matter Jesus) got this idea entirely by himself.

    To give a silly analogy, I remember reading about a little boy some years back who saw the Spiderman movies & decided that he was Spiderman. He jumped off the top floor of his apartment & was paralyzed for life. The moviemakers didn't exactly force him to imagine that he was Spiderman, he got that idea by himself as he was fascinated by the movies. At least this was a little boy, which Mohammed definitely wasn't.

    Ditto for those who read the OT\Torah stories & declared themselves an Abrahamic Prophet or Son of the Abrahamic God & announced that all the world should follow them or face dire consequences in the Afterlife-the Jews never compelled them to declare themselves Prophets.

    At least Jesus never physically attacked the people who refused his claims(although his followers certainly did), I can't even say that about Muhammad.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #9 - May 23, 2009, 02:53 PM

    I completely agree with what you said above Rashna and personally I have always admired and liked Jews.
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #10 - May 23, 2009, 02:53 PM

    attaining path to salvation should certainly not be an IQ test.


    Perfectly put  Afro
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #11 - May 23, 2009, 03:03 PM

    we were his last choice--but the only one of the peoples of ancient times who would accept them.
    As above, you may understand your question as to why G-d choose the Jews if you broaden its application:
    Why did G-d choose Galileo to demonstrate the correct position of the earth relative to the sun?
    Or why did G-d choose Shakespeare to write his plays?
    Or why did He choose Edison to create the lighbulb?
    Etc.
    The only answers may be:
    "He did. We do not know why. But thank you."  
    Or  
    "He did. We do not know why.  But I should similarly apply myself and strive for understanding and betterment of the world as did the people He chose."


    Maybe there is another answer:

    Maybe God didn't choose anyone because he doesn't exist. (or if he does he exists in a way and level that we don't understand and does not choose people in such a way.)

    That the Torah, Gospels, and Qur'an are just man-made myths and fables from men who thought God was speaking to them.

    As for blaming God - well if he didn't claim to be the one in charge then I guess I wouldn't blame him so much. (Besides, I actually tend to blame myself for everything and feel guilty for everything.)
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #12 - May 23, 2009, 03:48 PM

    It is also clear that Muhammad picked up a great deal of the OT stories from the Jews in Medina themselves.

    It is easy to throw all the blame on Muhammad and Muslims in order to absolve the other Abrahamic religions, but like IsLame says - why didn't God make sure his message was kept pure - and why couldn't God reveal his "Truths" to the Goyim in the way he so consistently did with the Jews?

    Or are the Goyim simply not blessed with the intellect, integrity and superior character as the Jewish people?

    I don't mean any disrespect, History - but I have always felt that the idea that God should choose a certain people for 99% of his prophets, guidance and special relationship unbecoming a Just and fair God who claims to be the God of us all.





    Good points Hassan, but one thing. Do you have any Hadiths or passages from the Sirah which show Muhammad taking bits from the OT/NT? Like I know he did took bits from it, but muslims say that all of them are weak hadith and that he was illiterate lol.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #13 - May 23, 2009, 04:03 PM

    It is also clear that Muhammad picked up a great deal of the OT stories from the Jews in Medina themselves.

    It is easy to throw all the blame on Muhammad and Muslims in order to absolve the other Abrahamic religions, but like IsLame says - why didn't God make sure his message was kept pure - and why couldn't God reveal his "Truths" to the Goyim in the way he so consistently did with the Jews?

    Or are the Goyim simply not blessed with the intellect, integrity and superior character as the Jewish people?

    I don't mean any disrespect, History - but I have always felt that the idea that God should choose a certain people for 99% of his prophets, guidance and special relationship unbecoming a Just and fair God who claims to be the God of us all.





    Good points Hassan, but one thing. Do you have any Hadiths or passages from the Sirah which show Muhammad taking bits from the OT/NT? Like I know he did took bits from it, but muslims say that all of them are weak hadith and that he was illiterate lol.


    The Qur'an is full of narrations of the OT prophets. In fact it talks more about the past prophets than it does about Muhammad.

    So Muslims take it for granted that the OT stories are related in the Qur'an.

    But the difference is that they would say that Muhammad didn't copy them but it was God who revealed them to him. (confirming that the Qur'an is part of the one continuous revelation from God.)

    But you might be interested to see this video that discusses parts of the Qur'an that are clearly lifted from the OT.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLgQkW5UTHM
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #14 - May 23, 2009, 04:54 PM

    It is also clear that Muhammad picked up a great deal of the OT stories from the Jews in Medina themselves.

    It is easy to throw all the blame on Muhammad and Muslims in order to absolve the other Abrahamic religions, but like IsLame says - why didn't God make sure his message was kept pure - and why couldn't God reveal his "Truths" to the Goyim in the way he so consistently did with the Jews?

    Or are the Goyim simply not blessed with the intellect, integrity and superior character as the Jewish people?

    I don't mean any disrespect, History - but I have always felt that the idea that God should choose a certain people for 99% of his prophets, guidance and special relationship unbecoming a Just and fair God who claims to be the God of us all.





    Good points Hassan, but one thing. Do you have any Hadiths or passages from the Sirah which show Muhammad taking bits from the OT/NT? Like I know he did took bits from it, but muslims say that all of them are weak hadith and that he was illiterate lol.


    The Qur'an is full of narrations of the OT prophets. In fact it talks more about the past prophets than it does about Muhammad.

    So Muslims take it for granted that the OT stories are related in the Qur'an.

    But the difference is that they would say that Muhammad didn't copy them but it was God who revealed them to him. (confirming that the Qur'an is part of the one continuous revelation from God.)

    But you might be interested to see this video that discusses parts of the Qur'an that are clearly lifted from the OT.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLgQkW5UTHM



    Great video. thanks for the link Hassan!! Afro

    Those sources sound very legit to me, but unfortunately many will deny what is in the video.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #15 - May 23, 2009, 06:22 PM

    Maybe there is another answer:

    Maybe God didn't choose anyone because he doesn't exist. ...

    That answer would be out of context with the question, Hassan.  Smiley

    If you choose not to believe in G-d, then asking why He acted or acts is moot.

    Good Shabbos!

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #16 - May 23, 2009, 06:40 PM

    Maybe there is another answer:

    Maybe God didn't choose anyone because he doesn't exist. ...

    That answer would be out of context with the question, Hassan.  Smiley

    If you choose not to believe in G-d, then asking why He acted or acts is moot.

    Good Shabbos!

    Respectfully,
    History


    Fair enough!

    But what about God does exist but he doesn't choose anyone.

    btw did you watch any of my videos?

    Any thoughts?
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #17 - May 24, 2009, 07:32 PM

    Fair enough!
    But what about God does exist but he doesn't choose anyone.

    If one then believes in G-d, then you need answer for yourself:
    "Why?" and "Who is G-d?"

    Your answer may be different from others, and different from mine, but if it inspires you to strive to be compassionate toward others, to do good, to live ethically, to actu justly...then your answer is correct--for you.

    For some of us, our answers include knowledge of a G-d who is both transcendent and imminent, who cares and who lets us choose how we live our lives--even lets us make mistakes.
    Some of us believe G-d has an interest in us individually and as a species, and an interest in all Creation.
    He has a Purpose and we, too, have Purpose.
    He has chosen us all for this.

    Quote
    btw did you watch any of my videos?

    Not yet.  Which two would you most like me to view?

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #18 - May 24, 2009, 08:50 PM

    If one then believes in G-d, then you need answer for yourself:
    "Why?" and "Who is G-d?"

    Your answer may be different from others, and different from mine, but if it inspires you to strive to be compassionate toward others, to do good, to live ethically, to actu justly...then your answer is correct--for you.



    So are you saying that if your understanding of God make you into a better person, then your understanding of God is a correct one?  I still dont understand how anyones interpretation of God is correct if it inspires you into becoming a better person.  Its not really a scientific approach to understanding the nature of this being?

    Also when you get a moment, will you get back on this post below

    Thanks

    It is a shame that those who claim to have faith often fail to live by it, using it as a sword instead of a balm.

    The quotes we have supplied, do exist in the Quran and hadith, and if you look at this evidence objectively, there is more anti-Jewish messages than ones that are pro.

    At best, the message is mixed, in reality it is racist.

    Why does your all powerful God allow his message to be corrupted in this fashion - you cant really blame Muslims for following this belief, particularly those who have not been exposed to the real world (for whatever reason). They are only following a different recipe to get to heaven than yourself, and attaining path to salvation should certainly not be an IQ test.


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  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #19 - May 24, 2009, 09:17 PM

    Not yet.  Which two would you most like me to view?


    Any really - you could just click on the first two I posted if you like Smiley
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #20 - May 24, 2009, 11:29 PM

    Hi, Islame.
    Thank you for your post.
    So are you saying that if your understanding of God make you into a better person, then your understanding of God is a correct one? 

    Yes.
    Quote
    I still dont understand how anyones interpretation of God is correct if it inspires you into becoming a better person.  Its not really a scientific approach to understanding the nature of this being?

    It is not a purely scientific consideration.
    Nor should it be.
    However, if it helps, consider it civilized selection.
    A society that strives toward the greatest good for as many of it members as possible has a survival advantage.
    Quote
    Also when you get a moment, will you get back on this post below

    See my answer in post #6.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #21 - May 25, 2009, 12:02 AM

    So are you saying that if your understanding of God make you into a better person, then your understanding of God is a correct one?

    Yes.
    Quote
    I still dont understand how anyones interpretation of God is correct if it inspires you into becoming a better person. 

    However, if it helps, consider it civilized selection.
    A society that strives toward the greatest good for as many of it members as possible has a survival advantage.

    Again, with respect, the practical benefit of believing in God, whether it gives you comfort, whether it provides a survival advantage, is irrelevent to whether he exists or not.   Believing I will live forever after death and have heavenly rewards for eternity, may be a comforting thought but irrelevent to whether it is true or not.
    Quote
    Also when you get a moment, will you get back on this post below

    Quote
    See my answer in post #6.

    Thanks for your reply, but did not really get to an answer for me and post 6 was more of a generic reply that did not answer why God allowed his messages to get corrupted. 

    Quote
    At least Jesus never physically attacked the people who refused his claims(although his followers certainly did), I can't even say that about Muhammad.

    I dont know he did it or not, but he certainly gave orders for them to attack disbelievers?

    Quote
    Its not really a scientific approach to understanding the nature of this being?

     
    Quote
    It is not a purely scientific consideration. Nor should it be.

    If you believe that religion is not purely a scientific consideration, are you saying its more of an internal feeling that you have - almost inexplicable but you can somehow feel his presence?

    Even if we somehow logically managed to disprove God's existence, are you saying you would still remain a believer?

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  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #22 - May 25, 2009, 02:43 AM

    Thank you for your post, Islame.
    Again, with respect, the practical benefit of believing in God, whether it gives you comfort, whether it provides a survival advantage, is irrelevent to whether he exists or not.

     
    Or not.
    The counter argument is:
    Accepting G-d's Teachings for ethical human behavior is accepting G-d, regardless of whether you claim to believe G-d exists or not.
    Per Jewish Teaching, G-d in His Humility states it is not about Him:

    "Better that My people should abandon (belief in) Me and keep the Torah, for observance of the mitzvot will bring them closer to Me."
    --Yerushalami Talmud, Haggigah 1:7

    Its about us, His Children.  His desire is for us to meet our full ethical potential, to be mature righteous beings.

    I submit belief in G-d also is relevant in the human recognition of an Authority, and associated morality which is eternal and unimpeachable by Man whose tendency for selfish behavior (yetzer hara) leads to moral relativity.
    I.e. men can find excuses for immoral and unethical behavior, can justify evil performed upon their fellows, can lie to themselves for selfish gain.
    However, a G-d based Law is eternal, and no man, nowhere and nowhen can change it.  This constancy of ethics is what makes belief in G-d right and good--for those whose tendency to elevate the self over the other is not fully self-controlled (i.e. everyone).
    Quote
    Believing I will live forever after death and have heavenly rewards for eternity, may be a comforting thought but irrelevent to whether it is true or not.

    I would say both are relevant to the one who believes and by their belief leads a righteous life.
    Fyi, personal salvation and Afterlife reward are not particularly important in Judaism compared to Christianity and Islam.
    Judaism is more comcerned with world salvation and Life.
    Quote
    Quote
    See my answer in post #6.

    Thanks for your reply, but did not really get to an answer for me and post 6 was more of a generic reply that did not answer why God allowed his messages to get corrupted. 

    The answer is still there.  I am sorry I cannot make it clearer for you.

    The Message has never been corrupt.  Human beings, however, can be.
    And the choice is ours.
    Quote
    At least Jesus never physically attacked the people who refused his claims(although his followers certainly did), I can't even say that about Muhammad.

    The Temple moneylenders would disagree with you.
    Quote
    I dont know he did it or not, but he certainly gave orders for them to attack disbelievers?

     
    Because of their unbelief alone?
    If so, then that was his human flaw (yetzer hara dominant).
    Quote
    If you believe that religion is not purely a scientific consideration, are you saying its more of an internal feeling that you have - almost inexplicable but you can somehow feel his presence?

    I can, yes.
    However, I'm saying, as a man of science, that science alone does not explain everything--yet, and maybe never.  Science is a tool for gaining knowledge and, at its best, it is amoral.  For morality, something more is required.  And, thus, it is not inappropriate nor unscientific to hypothesize--e.g. a soul, and a G-d.
    Quote
    Even if we somehow logically managed to disprove God's existence, are you saying you would still remain a believer?

    That in itself is a hypothesis which cannot be proved or disproved--i.e. a null hypothesis.
    And to what noble purpose?

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #23 - May 25, 2009, 09:20 PM

    Not yet.  Which two would you most like me to view?

    Any really - you could just click on the first two I posted if you like Smiley

    I like your voice.  The first two videos seemed fairly balanced, especially demonstrating the human condition to be selective in choosing among beliefs in accordance with their worldview and ignoring what does not.
    I found your video on "Apes and Pigs" not as ... strong... it trailed off into personaliztion with justification of your atheistic belief and abruptly terminates.  I tend to prefer documentary rather than expository videos of this type, while in Forums I tend to prefer the reverse as Forums permit dialog between indivuduals with different personal experiences.

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #24 - May 25, 2009, 09:23 PM

    Not yet.  Which two would you most like me to view?

    Any really - you could just click on the first two I posted if you like Smiley

    I like your voice.  The first two videos seemed fairly balanced, especially demonstrating the human condition to be selective in choosing among beliefs in accordance with their worldview and ignoring what does not.
    I found your video on "Apes and Pigs" not as ... strong... it trailed off into personaliztion with justification of your atheistic belief and abruptly terminates.  I tend to prefer documentary rather than expository videos of this type, while in Forums I tend to prefer the reverse as Forums permit dialog between indivuduals with different personal experiences.

    Respectfully,
    History


    Thanks Smiley

    Actually I'm not an Atheist. I do believe in God - but I don't believe in any religion.
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #25 - May 25, 2009, 09:38 PM

    My apologies, Hassan.
    As this is a Forum,  Smiley , can you define your Theism?

    Respectfully,
    History

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #26 - May 25, 2009, 09:55 PM

    My apologies, Hassan.
    As this is a Forum,  Smiley , can you define your Theism?

    Respectfully,
    History


    I am not a theist. Perhaps more of a Deist, I also describe myself as Agnostic, though I don't think I fit neatly into any category.

    I believe there is 'something' - call it God if you will - but I believe there is something more, something beyond our understanding.

    Beyond that I cannot say, because apart from the my 'sense' that there is something - I really 'don't know anything' - I cannot prove there is something and I certainly have no idea what it is. I find myself unable to describe, define or quantify this "Something" - I have no idea of what it's nature is etc...

    Put simply, my position is I believe there is something more but have no idea what it is.

    I feel more confident in saying what I believe it is NOT.

    It is NOT the God described in the Bible or the Qur'an. That God - imho - is a man-made fiction.



  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #27 - May 25, 2009, 10:16 PM

    What makes you believe "there is something more"?

    "You shall love your fellow as yourself."--Vayikrah 19:18

    "Justice, justice shall you pursue"--Devarim 16:20
  • Re: Islamonline Fatwa! Jews as Depicted in the Quran!
     Reply #28 - May 25, 2009, 10:20 PM

    What makes you believe "there is something more"?


    I cannot offer any evidence. It is just a feeling I have and I full accept I could be wrong and that there may well be nothing.
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