Morality or Sense of right & Wrong

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- cosmicdancer
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Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
OP - May 23, 2009, 02:08 PM

I am often asked by family and friends that now I don't believe in Islam or any religion - where do I get my morality from.

I usually reply; my conscience.

Though what exactly is 'my conscience'? Is it some sort of inbuilt morality that we have evolved? (Or been given by God - for those who believe in God?). Is it just the sum total of our instincts based on our experiences socialization process?

Are there standards of morality or right and wrong we can all agree on or is it all relative?

I'd be interested to hear how would others answer this question
- Rashna
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #1 - May 23, 2009, 03:12 PM

Sympathy & empathy are the cornerstones of my morality- & I keep an eye on the changing zeitgeist because I understand that however much I try to think absolutely independently, I am influenced by the way the world thinks so all that I believe today might just not be acceptable tomorrow.

This works in the following way:

I empathise with people who hold strong religious feelings & respect their rights to practice & preach their faith, but that doesn't give them the right to enforce their views on anyone.

Thus forbidding people to wed because of one's religious beliefs, forcing them to dress in a certain way & certainly killing or taxing them for not believing as you do is unacceptable.

I have far more sympathy with the girl who doesn't want to wear a niqab than with her father & brothers who feel that her not wearing a niqab will shame them.

I try to put myself in the other person's shoes to understand why they feel what they feel & if the wishes of two people\two interest groups clash, I try to see whose voice holds more weight.

Thus I would empathise with Blacks who are hurt by segregation far more than I empathise with Whites who feel that theiy're losing their innate superiority if they're made to feel equal to Blacks.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
- kope
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #2 - May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
I am often asked by family and friends that now I don't believe in Islam or any religion - where do I get my morality from.

I usually reply; my conscience.

Though what exactly is 'my conscience'? Is it some sort of inbuilt morality that we have evolved? (Or been given by God - for those who believe in God?). Is it just the sum total of our instincts based on our experiences socialization process?

Are there standards of morality or right and wrong we can all agree on or is it all relative?

I'd be interested to hear how would others answer this question

some morality come from our conscience and some morality came from god

for example clothing ourselve came from god

please read my blog, read how islam will win
the clash of civilization.

http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
- Tlaloc
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #3 - May 23, 2009, 04:35 PM

If I had to give a purely pragmatical explanation, I'd say that morality is nothing but an evolutionary tool for survival.

After all, if you look closely at it, anything most consider "good behavior" is simply altruism.
And if you look at altruism closely, it's simply treating others like you would treat yourself.
So, I think that individuals (and species in general) are capable of more or less "good" according to how much they are able to identify themselves into the surrounding world. And that is an expression of how social they are.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #4 - May 23, 2009, 04:38 PM

Hassan,
For me I go by basic golden rule 'Do not do that to others which you don't want for yourself.' Rest all are details.

And, I believe morality keeps on evolving and it should. Say, in 16th Century England, the punishment of being drawned, hanged and quatered was acceptable. Now, it is not. In current time as well, we might be doing many things which can be immoral for next generations.

Most of the religion accepts the morality prevaling at the time whey they come in existence, do minor changes to it. But, they become standstill at that point and codify pexisting notions. Only dogma remains and there is no evolution. That is one of my objection against religion.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #5 - May 23, 2009, 05:31 PM

Quote from: kope on May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
for example clothing ourselve came from god

Proof?

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
- hupla
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #6 - May 23, 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
Are there standards of morality or right and wrong we can all agree on or is it all relative?

I'd be interested to hear how would others answer this question

Humans are born with an innate sense of reciprocity - it helps humans work in groups.
Once you fully think through that reciprocity, you have a pretty close approximation of the modern concept of human rights (or the golden rule).
- sojournerlumus
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #7 - May 23, 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote from: Rashna on May 23, 2009, 05:31 PM
Quote from: kope on May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
for example clothing ourselve came from god

Proof?

We didn't need a god to tell us our nidgets were freezing off but we do need proof that a god exists.
But as for morality: Agreement on reciprocal aid against the forces of Nature seems to have informed our evolution pretty well - until now.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
- kope
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #8 - May 24, 2009, 12:46 AM

Quote from: Rashna on May 23, 2009, 05:31 PM
Quote from: kope on May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
for example clothing ourselve came from god

Proof?

read my blog

please read my blog, read how islam will win
the clash of civilization.

http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
- aggur
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #9 - May 24, 2009, 05:32 AM

Talking of morality, I just came across this - challenging our human monopoly !!

Animals can tell right from wrong
Animals possess a sense of morality that allows them to tell the difference between right and wrong, according to a controversial new book.

Here's the link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

Would be nice to think we weren't the only ones!
What does seem to be emerging from other sources of neuroscience research is that something akin to morality may be hard-wired into the brain through evolution so that we end up being cooperative and nice to each other for the survival of the species.

As far as god's concerned though, if I believed in god the fact that non-believers can also be moral people wouldn't raise any questions for me, since I could just reason that god, having created everyone, must have hard-wired both believing and non-believing brains to behave in pretty much the same manner.
- kope
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #10 - May 24, 2009, 08:23 AM

sextual morality came from god agree?

please read my blog, read how islam will win
the clash of civilization.

http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
- aggur
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #11 - May 24, 2009, 08:28 AM

Quote
sextual morality came from god agree?

Don't you mean textual morality ?
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #12 - May 24, 2009, 08:34 AM

Quote from: kope on May 24, 2009, 12:46 AM
Quote from: Rashna on May 23, 2009, 05:31 PM
Quote from: kope on May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
for example clothing ourselve came from god

Proof?

read my blog

You made a claim here. You should be prepared to defend it here.
Nobody is obliged to read your blog, and the people who have read it are unanimous in their opinion that it is completely daft rubbish anyway.

So, disregarding your blog, what proof do you have that clothing ourselves came from god?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #13 - May 24, 2009, 08:39 AM

Quote from: kope on May 24, 2009, 08:23 AM

sextual morality came from god agree?

I don't agree. Because if you look at animals, all animals have their own sexual "morality" codes, if you can call it that. One thing that religious people tend to say about promiscuous people is that they are "like animals". This comes from the assumption that we are different to animals because god has given us codes of sexual morality but he has not given these same codes to animals so animals are out there having sex with anyone and everyone. However, this is plain wrong.

Bonobos are very promiscuous, are involved in homosexuality, and sex is a very normal part of their every day life. 90% of birds are monogamous and 7% of mammals are monogamous. Gorillas have a harem with many females to every one male. And so on. The list is endless.

So to say that God gave humans a sense of sexual morality is not all that convincing.

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #14 - May 24, 2009, 09:09 AM

What really irritates me about the claim from Muslims (and Christians etc...) is the implication that I cannot be a moral person without following a religion.

On this issue all religions hold hands with each other and are buddies - watching each other's back - to defend belief in God against Evil Atheists (and slightly nasty Agnostics).

It is the assumption of their superiority and my inferiority that annoys me.

Yet when one looks beyond their claim to have "absolute God-given moral standards" one sees just as much immorality amongst those who believe in religion and just as much good morality amongst those who don't.

(But of course the immoral Muslims/Christians etc... aren't following the religion 'properly' )
- ned
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #15 - May 27, 2009, 03:47 PM

Hassan, I just saw your video on morality. Well done! You are absolutely right -- morality is something that we can derive from experience, from reasoning, from a study of human history and a careful consideration of facts and different points of view.

I am willing to concede that for early humanity, myths and religion were a source of morality, and therefore provided a foundation to start from ... but we are waaay past that stage now. We need to grow out of these things and become more self-reliant.

Incidentally, you might be interested in listening to Shaykh Nuh's talk on the ontology of morality (and on evolution ... and how humanity with all its genetic diversity evolved from the children of Adam and Eve and their incest, apparently ):
Track 5: Ontology of Morality, Evolution, and Islamic Creed
http://www.masud.co.uk/Audio/coherence_of_islam_5.mp3

This is the description:

Question:
If the human race started from Adam and Hawa and their offspring, all those offspring are brothers and sisters. No matter how many children Adam and Hawa have they will all be brothers and sisters. They will be genetically similar to each other as well. What he is trying to say is that did the human race start off with incest? If that is the case then offspring from the result of incest are usually inbreds and deformed. Also that does not explain why we are different skin color and why our features are different, e.g. Chinese, Afro etc.

Topic Discussed

* Abrogation and the Sacred Law
* Basis of Morality/Rulings of the Sacred Law
* Biology of Deformity
* The "Founder Effect"
* Steven Pinker & The Variation of Physical Features
* Evolution, The Fossil Record, and Islamic Creed
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #16 - May 27, 2009, 04:05 PM

Quote from: ned on May 27, 2009, 03:47 PM

I am willing to concede that for early humanity, myths and religion were a source of morality, and therefore provided a foundation to start from ... but we are waaay past that stage now. We need to grow out of these things and become more self-reliant.

Maybe early humans realized that some morality was neccessary for social co operation & survival but they decided to codify it in their myths & religious stories-as that would easily lead early humans, gullible as they were, to obey. They realised that it would be a difficult world if humans went around killing each other as they wanted so laws against murder, people wouldn't like to earn wealth if it was routinely snatched from them so laws against theft, men would like to pass their wealth to their offsprings so they needed to make sure that their wives don't stray hence sexual double standards & so forth. This was codified in the name of their god\s because that would make them easier to obey.When we know little about our world, alternate explanations in the name of religion is easier to accept & of course, ignorant folk would fear nature & god's wrath & thus not stray from divinely sanctioned laws.

Later, there were the concepts of secular laws-like Roman laws & still later we widened it to include laws which override considerations of nationality so Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

In many ways, we don't need the name of God or Prophets or sages attached to our laws anymore to make us understand that they serve the common good.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #17 - May 27, 2009, 04:13 PM

Thanks, Ned - and thanks for the link, I am listening to it now as I type
- ned
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #18 - May 27, 2009, 10:20 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2009, 04:13 PM
Thanks, Ned - and thanks for the link, I am listening to it now as I type

He's talking nonsense in that clip ... justifying incest as having been allowed by Allah for the children of Adam and Eve, claiming that such incest would not have lead to deformities, that the environment is enough to allow genetic diversity to develop, etc. etc. I can't believe the people who follow these shaykhs can be so gullible as to believe stuff that even an undergraduate student taking a freshman-level course in population genetics would be able to refute.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #19 - May 27, 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote from: ned on May 27, 2009, 10:20 PM
He's talking nonsense in that clip...

My thoughts entirely!
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #20 - May 28, 2009, 12:11 AM

Quote from: kope on May 23, 2009, 03:40 PM
Quote from: Hassan on May 23, 2009, 02:08 PM
I am often asked by family and friends that now I don't believe in Islam or any religion - where do I get my morality from.

I usually reply; my conscience.

Though what exactly is 'my conscience'? Is it some sort of inbuilt morality that we have evolved? (Or been given by God - for those who believe in God?). Is it just the sum total of our instincts based on our experiences socialization process?

Are there standards of morality or right and wrong we can all agree on or is it all relative?

I'd be interested to hear how would others answer this question

some morality come from our conscience and some morality came from god

for example clothing ourselve came from god

I have troubled myself with Ethics for years because I cannot reach certainty. One thing I am very certain of, though, is that morality does not come from God. See the Euthyphro dilemma, if you are willing to learn.

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #21 - May 28, 2009, 12:14 AM

Quote from: Calm on May 23, 2009, 04:38 PM
Hassan,
For me I go by basic golden rule 'Do not do that to others which you don't want for yourself.' Rest all are details.

It doesn't work. I am in a situation where I am thinking what present I am going to buy for my friend. He likes to play the guitar. I like to play the piano. If he was buying me a present, I would like it if he was to buy me a piano. So if I go by this rule, I go and buy him a piano. However, this would most likely produce contempt, as my friend would think I am trying to subliminally get him to like the piano and am disrespecting his like of the guitar.

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #22 - May 28, 2009, 12:19 AM

Going by the Golden Rule, you would want anyone choosing you a present to choose the thing they know you will like best, and get most enjoyment out of, you wouldn't want them to be selfish and just choose something they like. So, therefore when you're choosing a present for them, you should also put aside your own wants, and choose whatever you know they will like best.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #23 - May 28, 2009, 12:28 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on May 28, 2009, 12:19 AM
Going by the Golden Rule, you would want anyone choosing you a present to choose the thing they know you will like best, and get most enjoyment out of, you wouldn't want them to be selfish and just choose something they like. So, therefore when you're choosing a present for them, you should also put aside your own wants, and choose whatever you know they will like best.

Well, yes, that is the other side of the coin.

On the first interpretation, the Golden Rule says:
Morality requires us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us if we found ourselves in their position with our own tastes and preferences (and, perhaps, ideals).
On the second interpretation, the Golden Rule says:
Morality requires us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us if we found ourselves in their position with their tastes and preferences (and ideals).

Problem with first: I would like it if everybody was to give me all their money. Therefore I should give other people all my money = counter intuitive. Or the example I gave about buying somebody a present.

Problem with second: This is basically "do what people want of you". So if somebody else would like to hear about what you did last night, you would have to tell them. If somebody else would like you to do something intimate with them, you would have to do it = counter intuitive.

So which interpretation are you going to go for?

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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #24 - May 28, 2009, 12:48 AM

Neither, I think both interpretations are immature and fail to take into account a normal, adult level of social skills. I mean, do you really need a rule to tell you how to choose a present for your friend?

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #25 - May 28, 2009, 12:51 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on May 28, 2009, 12:48 AM
Neither, I think both interpretations are immature and fail to take into account a normal, adult level of social skills. I mean, do you really need a rule to tell you how to choose a present for your friend?

Well if your going to reject the Golden Rule then say so. Otherwise, have you got a better interpretation of the Golden Rule?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #26 - May 28, 2009, 12:53 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on May 28, 2009, 12:51 AM
Quote from: Cheetah on May 28, 2009, 12:48 AM
Neither, I think both interpretations are immature and fail to take into account a normal, adult level of social skills. I mean, do you really need a rule to tell you how to choose a present for your friend?

Well if your going to reject the Golden Rule then say so. Otherwise, have you got a better interpretation of the Golden Rule?

Well, yes I do. You apply a functional, adult level of social skills to the limits of how far you go to please someone else, (ie, don't go giving all your money away ), then you treat people with the same level of respect and consideration that you would like to receive.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #27 - May 28, 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote from: Cheetah on May 28, 2009, 12:53 AM
Quote from: J4m3z on May 28, 2009, 12:51 AM
Quote from: Cheetah on May 28, 2009, 12:48 AM
Neither, I think both interpretations are immature and fail to take into account a normal, adult level of social skills. I mean, do you really need a rule to tell you how to choose a present for your friend?

Well if your going to reject the Golden Rule then say so. Otherwise, have you got a better interpretation of the Golden Rule?

Well, yes I do. You apply a functional, adult level of social skills to the limits of how far you go to please someone else, (ie, don't go giving all your money away ), then you treat people with the same level of respect and consideration that you would like to receive.

That isn't another interpretation of the Golden Rule, that is something new that you have added there...

That's like saying I am a Muslim and accept everything that Islam says, my interpretation of it is that I accept the UN declaration of human rights.... well that isn't an interpretation of Islam that is something new altogether...

You said my criticisms were immature, can you please justify this. These were criticisms that a professor at my university included in his lecture, please don't just brush them aside so easily.

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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #28 - May 28, 2009, 01:04 AM

I agree with Tlaloc. Our conscience comes from our social nature, and so does moral behaviour.

But there's no universalisable morality.

OTOH the 'Golden Rule' is a bit random, especially considering its proponents. There are no 'golden rules'. It's like the 'sanctity of life'. Follow it through and you're just a pacifist.

funny how the 'sanctity of life' is supported by religious war-mongers.

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Re: Morality or Sense of right & Wrong
Reply #29 - May 28, 2009, 05:40 AM

All Morals come from Empathy.

This is the easy example:

When I was little I had a cat. I loved to pull its tail because it would scream, and as a toddler I found that amusing. My father stopped me. He explained to me that pulling on its tail gives the cat pain. Once I what I realized what I was doing to the cat I stopped, because I understood pain = bad; I was causing pain; therefor what I was doing was bad.

Simple, ya?

Its the golden rule all the way around.... and the "golden rule" is simply common sense.

To include sexual morals.
The reason one may not sleep around, is because they dont want to abuse their partners emotions as Women espcially tie sex with love. You can have as much sex as you want, and as long as nobody is being hurt emotionally, it is not immoral.

Also, Nudity is not immoral. It is NEVER immoral. It may, given the context, be impractical, impolite, or inappropriate, but NEVER immoral.

The great Irony is that religion can get people, with great ease, to block their natural sense of empathy.

edit:

I already know what you are going to say: "Well, If your girlfriend doesnt find out, is it still immoral, as nobody is being hurt?"
The answer is yes, because it requires dishonesty and betrayal

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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