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Theme Changer

 Topic: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?

 (Read 5001 times)
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  • Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     OP - June 16, 2009, 08:34 PM

    Interesting article here. It caught my eye because of the parallels with many of the people active in the Christian "Young Earth Creationist" movement in the US and elsewhere. The YEC's aren't notorious for terrorism, although I have no doubt a lot of them would be into it if they thought God was telling them to do it, but what is striking is the number of engineers that are involved in YEC. This has been noted and commented on many times. What is it with engineers and YEC?

    Now it looks as is there is a similar and striking correlation between engineers and Islamic extremism. This does not mean that all engineers are either YEC's or Islamic terrorists, but it does seem that people inclined to that sort of thing also tend to be attracted to engineering. I have an idea that it is something to do with seeing everything as designed and as part of a plan, but of course I can't back that with anything solid at this stage. Anyway the article is worth a look. Excerpts below. Afro

    Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?  

    Quote
    WHO becomes a terrorist? An MI5 report leaked to London newspaper The Guardian in August 2008 concluded that there is no easy way to identify those who become involved in terrorism in the UK because there is "no single pathway to violent extremism" and that "it is not possible to draw up a typical profile of the 'British terrorist' as most are 'demographically unremarkable'".


    Quote
    Does it follow, as some scholars now think, that anyone, given the right conditions and the wrong friendships, can end up joining a terrorist group? Not entirely. We found that engineers are three to four times as likely as other graduates to be present among the members of violent Islamic groups in the Muslim world since the 1970s. Using a sample of 404 Islamic militants worldwide (with a median birth date in 1966), we tracked down the education of 284. Of these, 26 had less than secondary education, 62 completed secondary education (including madrasas), and 196 had higher education, whether completed or not. Even if none of the cases where we lack data had higher education, the share of those with higher education would be a hefty 48.5 per cent.

    The next move was to find out what they had studied - and we tracked down 178 of our 196 cases. The largest single group were engineers, with 78 out of 178, followed by 34 taking Islamic studies, 14 studying medicine, 12 economics and business studies, and 7 natural sciences. The over-representation of engineers applies to all 13 militant groups in the sample and to all 17 nationalities, with the exception of Saudi Arabia.

    Our finding holds up quite well in another sample of 259 Islamic extremists who are citizens or residents of 14 western, mostly European, countries, and who have recently come to the attention of the authorities for carrying out or plotting a terrorist attack in the west. Although this sample contains far fewer people with higher education than the older members of the first group, nearly 6 out of 10 of those with higher education are engineers.

    We also collected data on non-Muslim extremists. We found that engineers are almost completely absent from violent left-wing groups, while they are present among violent right-wing groups in different countries. Out of seven right-wing leaders in the US whose degrees we were able to establish, four were engineers: for example, Richard Butler, the founder of the neo-Nazi group Aryan Nations, was an aeronautical engineer, and Wilhelm Schmitt, leader of the right-wing, extreme anti-government, pro-localism group known as the Sheriff's Posse Comitatus, was an engineer with Lockheed Martin. Among the total membership of the Islamic groups, however, the over-representation is still much higher.

      

    Quote
    Why engineers? Everybody's first reaction is that they are recruited for their technical proficiency in bomb-making and communications technology, but there is no evidence for this. A tiny elite tends to do the technical work in these groups, and jihadist recruitment manuals focus on a personality profile rather than technical skills.

    So we are left with two hypotheses: either certain social conditions impinge more on engineers than on other graduates, or engineers are more likely to have certain personality traits that make radical Islamism more attractive to them. Our best guess is that the phenomenon derives from a combination of these two factors.


    Quote
    We reckon that something else is going on, something at the individual level, that is, relating to cognitive traits. According to polling data, engineering professors in the US are seven times as likely to be right-wing and religious as other academics, and similar biases apply to students. In 16 other countries we investigated, engineers seem to be no more right-wing or religious than the rest of the population, but the number of engineers combining both traits is unusually high. A lot of piecemeal evidence suggests that characteristics such as greater intolerance of ambiguity, a belief that society can be made to work like clockwork, and dislike of democratic politics which involves compromise, are more common among engineers.

    So the bottom line is that while the probability of a Muslim engineer becoming a violent Islamist is minuscule, it is still be between three and four times that for other graduates.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #1 - June 16, 2009, 08:49 PM

    i suppose engineering is quite a black & white subject

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  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #2 - June 16, 2009, 09:18 PM

    Funny, but Handassa (engineering) is a subject that many literalists I know are studying.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #3 - June 16, 2009, 09:28 PM

    Maybe like Islame said, its a subject that you require standard intellgence for but you dont need creativity and open mindedness for. Like mathematics or economics but unlike Scientific subjects (which require a very open mind).
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #4 - June 16, 2009, 09:33 PM

    Well I think the best engineers, the ones that push the boundaries, are creative and open-minded but of course you can get through engineering by just following standard practice. Depends on where you're working I suppose. Same with mathematics. To do high level mathematics and push it further requires open-mindedness I think.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #5 - June 16, 2009, 09:38 PM

    I am studying information engineering :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #6 - June 16, 2009, 09:39 PM

    Well I think the best engineers, the ones that push the boundaries, are creative and open-minded but of course you can get through engineering by just following standard practice. Depends on where you're working I suppose. Same with mathematics. To do high level mathematics and push it further requires open-mindedness I think.


    Agreed.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #7 - June 16, 2009, 09:41 PM

    I am studying information engineering :S

    Cool. That doesn't involve explosives.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #8 - June 16, 2009, 10:37 PM

    Well I think the best engineers, the ones that push the boundaries, are creative and open-minded but of course you can get through engineering by just following standard practice. Depends on where you're working I suppose. Same with mathematics. To do high level mathematics and push it further requires open-mindedness I think.

    Very true.  I read about Goedel and how he came up with his incompleteness theorem - it was astounding how he was able to "step back" from something as large and all encompassing as Betrand Russell's Principia Mathematica and use that to prove itself wrong.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #9 - June 17, 2009, 04:05 PM

    An Engineer here
    Neither YEC nor Terrorist  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #10 - June 17, 2009, 08:08 PM

    Cool. That doesn't involve explosives.

    But I could create badly designed software! BE SCARED!

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #11 - June 23, 2009, 09:10 AM

    Could it be linked to an upbringing where those people are forced into studying Religion / Engineering / maths and artistic subjects are considered sinful?
     

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #12 - June 23, 2009, 09:23 AM

    Good find Os, this is fascinating stuff.  It ties in with mbti  whistling2 and my ex's personality type.

    The suggestion is that certain cognitive behaviours are more inclined to agree with this sort of shit, and if I compare it to things I think about with personality typing it all ties up quite neatly.  Still need to think about it some more.

    I'm going to post it elsewhere too.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #13 - June 23, 2009, 11:55 PM

    For the personality type you may be refering too, here are some of my observations as to what might be the personality traits . These personality traits can be seperate to each other, completely non existent in students of these subjects or people interested in money, but they can occur together -


    - Believing that the world and everything in life revolves around money.

    - Wanting to earn as much and be as rich as possible.

    - Promoting and being interested in the study of difficult yet financially rewarding subjects such as Engineering / Maths / Medicine / Pharmacy / Law. Where possible, maybe even Religious Studies.

    - If successful in one of these areas, belief that you are super intelligent, God's gift on this planet, that everyone else can do the same as you just because you can, and if they cant then there is something wrong and unnatural about them.

    - Belief that you are above and better then people who are less educated or earn less money than you do.

    - Due to your vast intelligence, belief that you are always right and every counter or opposite view on your own opinions or beliefs must be wrong. Complete inability / refusal to apologise to anyone else or see any errors with anything about yourself.

    - Living a life that is not the same as yours is wrong because you are perfect with no problems with your education, high paid job, lots of money, and wife and kids and expensive home and car(s). (this is a power / aggression trait that mostly affects males).

    - Trying to force your family into living your lifestyle, with anger and even aggression if they refuse to submit, which may lead to hitting / beating.

    - If you are religious, then because you are always right everyone that doesnt follow the same religion as you or follows a different lifestyle or culture, they are wrong and unnatural as only you, your life and your culture is normal and good.

    - Following orders and authority is good. Authority comes with education / wealth / 'man of the family' position, being in governmental or lawful power over someone else. Protesters are evil and need to be shot.

    - Everything in the world that is not like you is wrong and bad, and it is all America's fault.


    - Eventually, believing that all the people who are wrong need to be punished / hurt / killed, but in most cases, the person will not carry out these actions as the law says that they cant.


    People can have any of these personality traits, but they often occur together and are completely irregardless of race or religion, but today it just happens to affect a lot of Muslims, and quite honestly, I have seen all of these behaviours directly in my Father and Brother. The education / wealth parts can be replaced purely with religious means for the stupids who cant get onto a medicine degree. Not that I think they are stupid, but this person who turns into a terrorist will have likely had parents that thought of their now terrorist child as stupid for not getting straight A's, and not being able to get onto a Medicine / Engineering degree.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #14 - June 24, 2009, 06:56 PM

    I think the saying is civil engineers build things that can be blown up by mechanical engineers.

    I guess the best way is to round up an engineer who failed the mandatory humanity/philosophy course.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #15 - July 04, 2009, 04:44 PM

    But I could create badly designed software! BE SCARED!


    Bill Gates has a job waiting for you.

  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #16 - July 04, 2009, 04:48 PM

    Quote
    The next move was to find out what they had studied - and we tracked down 178 of our 196 cases. The largest single group were engineers, with 78 out of 178, followed by 34 taking Islamic studies, 14 studying medicine, 12 economics and business studies, and 7 natural sciences. The over-representation of engineers applies to all 13 militant groups in the sample and to all 17 nationalities, with the exception of Saudi Arabia.


    Lmao, glad to know i am not on the radar as a terrorist  Afro

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Can university subjects reveal terrorists in the making?
     Reply #17 - July 05, 2009, 12:59 AM

    I guess the best way is to round up an engineer who failed the mandatory humanity/philosophy course.

     Cheesy

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