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 Topic: Does he have a point?

 (Read 9357 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Does he have a point?
     OP - July 10, 2009, 03:00 PM

    cafeespresso99 (12 hours ago)

    Hassan, people like you claim to be exercising freedom of speech when they attack islam and muslims. What you overlook is that the important thing is not how your videos make YOU feel, but the hatred that they create in others towards muslims.

    People like you have contributed to an environment where attacking muslims has been legitimised to the extent that even the clothes they wear are being scrutinized and regulated (France etc).

    But more seriously, the murder of people such as Marwa Sharabini in Dresden, who was killed because she wore a hijab, could only have been made more likely by the self-centred actions of people such as yourself.

    _________________________

    Discussislam (3 hours ago)

    cafeespresso99,

    I don't believe for a minute that my comments incite violence towards Muslims - who are after all my family too.

    On the contrary I hope my videos contribute to a calm, rational and thoughtful response to the issues surrounding Islam and Muslims.

    Peace,

    Hassan.

    _________________________

    cafeespresso99 (17 minutes ago)
    [part 1]


    Hassan, I didn't suggest that you "incite" violence, and I am aware of your muslim family background.

    What I am saying is that channels such as yours contribute to an overall environment of unfair villification and demonisation which is used by some to attack muslims. All you need do is to look at the views and comments of some of your admirers to conclude that they are motivated by deep-rooted anti-islamic and anti-Arab bigotry, rather than a thirst for intellectual debate.

    cafeespresso99 (17 minutes ago)
    [part 2]


    Your motives for creating this channel are, I am sure, honourable. However, one cannot absolve one's conscience from the unintended consequences of their actions, especially when such consequences are entirely predictable. If you drive your car at 60 mph in a residential road, your intention may not be to kill a child. But killing a child is not an unpredictable consequence of irresponsible driving, and it is right that you should be held morally responsible for that child's death.

    So when you join a campaign of villification against a group of people, and a madman is driven over the edge and kills a member of the villified group, it is morally unacceptable for you to say "Wasn't me.....I didn't pull the trigger". Why? Because you were part of the collective effort which drove the madman over the edge, causing him to commit the murder.

    Hope this makes sense.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #1 - July 10, 2009, 03:10 PM

    It's a fair point, though I think some of his analogies go over the top. What he's missing, however, is that it's not a one-sided affair-- while it is true that Muslims are subject to discrimination, violence and oppression from the West, women, gays, religious minorities, and society at large in many Muslim-majority countries are subject to discrimination, violence and oppression from Islam, and ignoring that fact is just as harmful as contributing to the vilification of Muslims. And given that the violent and oppressive excesses of Islam are plainly obvious, Islam will have its critics and detractors in the West, many of them nasty, hateful bigots-- so isn't it better to give some balance by having calm, rational, non-bigoted critics share their voice as well, and not cede the all criticism of Islam to the hatemongers/fearmongers?

    So, while he does make a fair point, he's plainly ignoring some realities that put your videos in their proper context, which is a positive one.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #2 - July 10, 2009, 03:38 PM

    He doesn't have a point with regard to your videos and with regard to many other critics of islam and other religions. There is a clear difference between critically analysing the ideas behind a religion and identifying its falsehoods and peddling unmindful stereotypes of groups of people.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #3 - July 10, 2009, 03:41 PM

    It's a fair point, though I think some of his analogies go over the top. What he's missing, however, is that it's not a one-sided affair-- while it is true that Muslims are subject to discrimination, violence and oppression from the West, women, gays, religious minorities, and society at large in many Muslim-majority countries are subject to discrimination, violence and oppression from Islam, and ignoring that fact is just as harmful as contributing to the vilification of Muslims. And given that the violent and oppressive excesses of Islam are plainly obvious, Islam will have its critics and detractors in the West, many of them nasty, hateful bigots-- so isn't it better to give some balance by having calm, rational, non-bigoted critics share their voice as well, and not cede the all criticism of Islam to the hatemongers/fearmongers?

    So, while he does make a fair point, he's plainly ignoring some realities that put your videos in their proper context, which is a positive one.


    Well put as always Q-Man - thanks.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #4 - July 10, 2009, 03:42 PM

    Quote
    So when you join a campaign of villification against a group of people,


    What a load of rubbish.  Criticising a religion is not the same thing at all as joining a campaign of vilification against its followers.  He has no point and is just trying to guilt trip you into shutting up. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #5 - July 10, 2009, 03:43 PM

    He doesn't have a point with regard to your videos and with regard to many other critics of islam and other religions. There is a clear difference between critically analysing the ideas behind a religion and identifying its falsehoods and peddling unmindful stereotypes of groups of people.


    Indeed!

    By his logic no-one is allowed to criticise Islam - and that can't be healthy for anyone - including Muslims.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #6 - July 10, 2009, 03:47 PM

    What a load of rubbish.  Criticising a religion is not the same thing at all as joining a campaign of vilification against its followers.  He has no point and is just trying to guilt trip you into shutting up. 


    Oh yes, I am well aware he's trying to make me feel guilty. But he doesn't need to since I make my self feel guilty already - about everything!

    But don't worry I'm well past the stage of thinking that I shouldn't be making my vids Smiley
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #7 - July 10, 2009, 03:53 PM

    As a contrast to cafeespresso99's comments - here is another Muslims comments regarding my video "Hit Them!":

    dawahaddict (10 hours ago)

    I just wanted to thank you for the respectful way you went about making this video. While I disagree with your ultimate conclusion, you went through it all fairly and with a good amount of knowledge. Obviously, as a Muslim, I am very sad to hear that you left Islam, and I do invite you back, but that is between you and Allah.


    discussislam (8 hours ago)

    Thanks Dawahaddict, I wish all Muslims could take criticism in the same spirit as you - peace.


    dawahaddict (15 minutes ago)

    wa 'alaikum


    This is the video he is referring to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVxtfS-Fvzs

  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #8 - July 10, 2009, 04:08 PM

    To echo the others.
    No, he does not have a point.
    What he is saying is "please allow the only criticism of Islam to be from the BNP".

  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #9 - July 10, 2009, 04:13 PM

    He is just trying to guilt-trip you. Ask him if we should all just cease criticising any religions because it may drive someone else over the edge? Should we ban tv because it may incite unethical behaviour? Should we ban the news as it may cause paranoia and vigilante attacks? Should we ban the internet as it gives criminals a place to gather and organise crime?

    Should we all be held responsible for something we did not do? Should we ban everything simply because it may cause negative consequences whilst ignoring the worse negative consequences that the ban itself would cause? What a silly world that would be!
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #10 - July 10, 2009, 04:31 PM

    cafeespresso99 (12 hours ago)

    Hassan, people like you claim to be exercising freedom of speech when they attack islam and muslims. What you overlook is that the important thing is not how your videos make YOU feel, but the hatred that they create in others towards muslims.

    People like you have contributed to an environment where attacking muslims has been legitimised to the extent that even the clothes they wear are being scrutinized and regulated (France etc).

    But more seriously, the murder of people such as Marwa Sharabini in Dresden, who was killed because she wore a hijab, could only have been made more likely by the self-centred actions of people such as yourself.


    Does anyone else see the contradiction?
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #11 - July 10, 2009, 05:43 PM

    I posted this:

    discussislam (1 second ago)
    Dear cafeespresso99,

    I've asked myself these questions many times.

    But I believe it would be wrong to to stand back and give extreme racists and haters free reign to poison the debate about Islam for their own hateful agenda.

    It is important to shift the debate away from the extremists and allow the many good, decent and peaceful non-Muslims and Muslims to engage in a calm and rational debate. I believe this is the only way to heal conflicts and bring people together.

    Peace,

    Hassan.

  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #12 - July 10, 2009, 08:26 PM

    I posted this:

    discussislam (1 second ago)
    Dear cafeespresso99,

    I've asked myself these questions many times.

    But I believe it would be wrong to to stand back and give extreme racists and haters free reign to poison the debate about Islam for their own hateful agenda.

    It is important to shift the debate away from the extremists and allow the many good, decent and peaceful non-Muslims and Muslims to engage in a calm and rational debate. I believe this is the only way to heal conflicts and bring people together.

    Peace,

    Hassan.

    ReplyReply

    I was saying the contradiction comes from blaming you for indirectly aiding anti-muslim authoritarians (using the French burka ban and murder in Germany as an example) will at the same time harboring an authoritarian attitude towards free speech (well thats the impression i got).
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #13 - July 10, 2009, 08:46 PM

    I was saying the contradiction comes from blaming you for indirectly aiding anti-muslim authoritarians (using the French burka ban and murder in Germany as an example) will at the same time harboring an authoritarian attitude towards free speech (well thats the impression i got).


    Yes - I did see that contradiction Frollo. Wanting to protect some freedoms by curbing other freedoms.



  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #14 - July 10, 2009, 08:52 PM

    I was saying the contradiction comes from blaming you for indirectly aiding anti-muslim authoritarians (using the French burka ban and murder in Germany as an example) will at the same time harboring an authoritarian attitude towards free speech (well thats the impression i got).

    I am not sure whether thats a contradiction - we can all have authoritarian attitudes towards some things, and liberal aspects to others.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #15 - July 11, 2009, 02:07 AM

    Indeed!

    By his logic no-one is allowed to criticise Islam - and that can't be healthy for anyone - including Muslims.


    The way he has posted what he did makes it seem as though we can't criticise ANYONE for anything because it would contribute to an atmosphere of vilification.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #16 - July 11, 2009, 12:49 PM

    He compares your approach as going 60mph on a residential road when you should be going at 30mph.

    I would say that it would be a more fitting analogy to say that he is criticizing you for going at 30mph on a residential road, because if you hit somebody at 30mph there is still a chance (I think one prediction was 20% chance) of killing that child. Rather you should go at a slower speed (0mph?!?!?!?)

    Reminds me of someone I was debating with yesterday who said the annual bull chase event they do in Spain should be banned because somebody died from it. Only one person died since 1995 and she goes "A person died! We have to take this very seriously!"

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #17 - July 11, 2009, 03:24 PM

    What a load of rubbish.  Criticising a religion is not the same thing at all as joining a campaign of vilification against its followers.  He has no point and is just trying to guilt trip you into shutting up. 


    True but we may need to take into account the current international context (post 911)

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #18 - July 11, 2009, 03:38 PM

    Reminds me of someone I was debating with yesterday who said the annual bull chase event they do in Spain should be banned because somebody died from it. Only one person died since 1995 and she goes "A person died! We have to take this very seriously!"


    But banning dangerous stuff is the European way! I hear that in the UK you have a bunch of people on the tear about "Knife violence", trying to restrict sales of knives. I can't wait until the UK bans solid foods, cause ya know, someone might choke on it.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #19 - July 11, 2009, 03:39 PM

    Why do we need to take into account 9/11? What has that got to do with criticising religion? In fact if anything it gives us even more of a reason to criticise religion.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #20 - July 11, 2009, 03:56 PM

    But banning dangerous stuff is the European way! I hear that in the UK you have a bunch of people on the tear about "Knife violence", trying to restrict sales of knives. I can't wait until the UK bans solid foods, cause ya know, someone might choke on it.


    Knife sales are highly restricted. You cannot sell them to under 18s and you cannot sell them if you have any reason to believe that the customer is going to use them to stab someone. But knife crime is a big deal in the UK. Loads of kids carry knives either because it is cool or for protection and kids getting stabbed is not an uncommon occurrence.

    The reason this is such a big deal is because we do not have a weapon culture in britain, and I can see why you find it funny because the weapon culture is so big in America. And I am glad we don't have a weapon culture in this country. I feel quite safe not seeing any guns when I am walking the streets. Not even the police have guns and that is because they are not really needed.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #21 - July 11, 2009, 04:14 PM

    Why do we need to take into account 9/11? What has that got to do with criticising religion? In fact if anything it gives us even more of a reason to criticise religion.


    I mean that criticizing Islam 20-30 years ago is not the same as criticizing Islam post-911. Thats what I meant by context.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #22 - July 11, 2009, 04:27 PM

    Tamberlyn4u (7 hours ago)
    "On the contrary I hope my videos contribute to a calm, rational and thoughtful response to the issues surrounding Islam and Muslims."

    Well intentioned comment, I'm sure - but how exactly wil they contribute towards calm, rational debate? Dyed in the wool Muslims will never see what you're saying, however true it might be (so that's them out of the picture). Atheists, non believers and ex muslims will appreciate what you say - but they don't need any further proof they are 'right'. Islam bashers, mad christians, and BNP types will absolutely LOVE your rational, considered approach and will use your vids to make their point that 'even an ex muslims scholar blah blah',

    So we are left with those Muslims who waver and are unsure about their belief - yes it will help them - so they, I take it, are your target audience? It is these people that you do it for?..

    Now weigh up the hurt and anger you cause other good people, family, former colleagues and friends and ask yourself, is this really worth it when compared to the damage done (to YOU, not to any of your well wishers, al of who are immune to the upset caused in your own back yard)? If the answer is a resounding 'Yes!!', fine. But as for 'adding to a rational debate', you are simply refuting the Koran (with a few other religions on the way) - you leave no room for debate besides the 'yes it is/no it isn't' type - which is not rational or helpful. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for speaking up and pissing people off if I think they desreve it, but on a human, personal level, it's not a cut and dried, it never is.

    I have one devout Christian friend whom has really helped and shown kindness to me when no one else did - for that one peron alone, I would respect their feelings enough to not bother creating an avalanche of hate, however well intentioned, over the presumed 'help' I may be offering to a bunch of strangers I may or mat not meet.

    Peace indeed.


  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #23 - July 11, 2009, 04:34 PM

    Knife sales are highly restricted. You cannot sell them to under 18s and you cannot sell them if you have any reason to believe that the customer is going to use them to stab someone. But knife crime is a big deal in the UK. Loads of kids carry knives either because it is cool or for protection and kids getting stabbed is not an uncommon occurrence.

    The reason this is such a big deal is because we do not have a weapon culture in britain, and I can see why you find it funny because the weapon culture is so big in America. And I am glad we don't have a weapon culture in this country. I feel quite safe not seeing any guns when I am walking the streets. Not even the police have guns and that is because they are not really needed.


    It's not just funny, it's dumb. You don't solve violence by banning the tools. Okay, you clamp down on "knife crime", next there will be a wave of "screwdriver crime" or "clawhammer crime", or bricks or cricket bats or whatever. If banning the tools of crime was the main factor in having a safe society, then Switzerland and Finland should have incredibly high gun violence rates, and Brazil, Colombia, and Mexico incredibly low gun violence rates, but as it stands it's the opposite.

    I'm not suggesting the UK just reverse its gun laws and civilians start arming themselves to the teeth like in America, but I am suggesting that knives aren't really the problem and the people campaigning against "knife violence" are blaming the tool, which is lazy and stupid. Reducing violence in a society requires difficult solutions involving modification of long-term social trends-- you cannot solve the problem overnight by banning this or that object/activity or by passing this or that law-- that is unless you want to live in a totalitarian police state. Unfortunately, most anti-violence activists want change NOW and lack long-term, big-picture analysis, and politicians are rarely elected on the basis of what they can do to make things better 20 to 50 years from today. Besides, the root causes of violent crime in modern society are often social trends/structures which are beyond the power of one social institution (even one as powerful as the state) to change.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #24 - July 11, 2009, 04:34 PM

    There have been several comments now on my channel about this (that I am contributing to an atmosphere of hate towards Muslims) and I can't say it doesn't concern me.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/discussislam
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #25 - July 11, 2009, 04:47 PM

    Are you talking about Tamberlyn4u's comments? Unless I missed something, I'm not certain what's concerning you.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #26 - July 11, 2009, 05:05 PM

    I don't think he has a point at all. That is like saying that Zaki Nayik and Deedat should not scrutinise Christianity because it could lead to attacks on Christians. Or that Muslims shouldn't criticise Homosexuality becuase it could lead to Homophobia. Or Muslims should not talk about women in disparaging terms because it could lead to domestic violence and indeed it has on many occasions.

    I think the person is disturbed by your calm and rational critique and because he can't just dismiss you as an 'Islamaphobe' he has tried a different tact.

    I'm surprised you guys are considering his points seriously.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #27 - July 11, 2009, 05:07 PM

    I mean that criticizing Islam 20-30 years ago is not the same as criticizing Islam post-911. Thats what I meant by context.

    It's still the same religion with the same violent extremists so it makes no difference.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #28 - July 11, 2009, 05:15 PM

    Tamberlyn4u (7 hours ago)
    "On the contrary I hope my videos contribute to a calm, rational and thoughtful response to the issues surrounding Islam and Muslims."

    Well intentioned comment, I'm sure - but how exactly wil they contribute towards calm, rational debate? Dyed in the wool Muslims will never see what you're saying, however true it might be (so that's them out of the picture). Atheists, non believers and ex muslims will appreciate what you say - but they don't need any further proof they are 'right'. Islam bashers, mad christians, and BNP types will absolutely LOVE your rational, considered approach and will use your vids to make their point that 'even an ex muslims scholar blah blah',

    So we are left with those Muslims who waver and are unsure about their belief - yes it will help them - so they, I take it, are your target audience? It is these people that you do it for?..

    Now weigh up the hurt and anger you cause other good people, family, former colleagues and friends and ask yourself, is this really worth it when compared to the damage done (to YOU, not to any of your well wishers, al of who are immune to the upset caused in your own back yard)? If the answer is a resounding 'Yes!!', fine. But as for 'adding to a rational debate', you are simply refuting the Koran (with a few other religions on the way) - you leave no room for debate besides the 'yes it is/no it isn't' type - which is not rational or helpful. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for speaking up and pissing people off if I think they desreve it, but on a human, personal level, it's not a cut and dried, it never is.

    I have one devout Christian friend whom has really helped and shown kindness to me when no one else did - for that one peron alone, I would respect their feelings enough to not bother creating an avalanche of hate, however well intentioned, over the presumed 'help' I may be offering to a bunch of strangers I may or mat not meet.

    Peace indeed.




    Hass, you need to ask him if limiting free speach is a better approach. Should we stop all criticisms simply because it may vilify people?!

    On the other hand should we allow muslim extremists to air Islam disgusting mysoginist views?! Why is he having a go at you rather than Islam? Which one is doing more harm, you or Islam? Which is doing more good, you or Islam? Tell him to stop being a hypocritical bastard and start arguing with those who are actually spreading harm! You are not the one telling people they will be burned in hell, you are exposing disgusting dogma which needs to be done!

    It doesn't make the slightest difference whether or not your videos are on the internet, all the BNP facists need are videos from muslim extremists on youtube preaching hatred towards women to justify their irrational views. They don't need you.
  • Re: Does he have a point?
     Reply #29 - July 11, 2009, 05:25 PM

    I don't think he has a point at all. That is like saying that Zaki Nayik and Deedat should not scrutinise Christianity because it could lead to attacks on Christians. Or that Muslims shouldn't criticise Homosexuality becuase it could lead to Homophobia. Or Muslims should not talk about women in disparaging terms because it could lead to domestic violence and indeed it has on many occasions.

    I think the person is disturbed by your calm and rational critique and because he can't just dismiss you as an 'Islamaphobe' he has tried a different tact.

    I'm surprised you guys are considering his points seriously.


    "You guys"? I think I'm the only one who took his points seriously, though I ultimately rejected his argument.

    fuck you
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »