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Theme Changer

 Topic: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI

 (Read 9664 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #30 - July 23, 2009, 06:50 PM

    This time I won't, these comments were attrocious, even as I read them now I am filled with guilt and genuine sadness, what was I thinking?

    That's it. Oh, sorry I made a stink before I went.

     far away hug No probs, welcome back for however long it is.  Well at least until you run away in a stink..

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #31 - July 23, 2009, 06:52 PM

    Not true.  Which major schools do those named below agree with?

    The one whose thoughts are most in line with Muhammads, and this can be established from the Quran/Hadith (taken literally, with the rule of abrogation taken into consideration too).

    .
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #32 - July 23, 2009, 06:55 PM

    The one whose thoughts are most in line with Muhammads, and this can be established from the Quran/Hadith (taken literally, with the rule of abrogation taken into consideration too).

    So you are saying their points are in line with the major Islamic schools?  Also can you tell me what these schools are, so I can actually find out what the true Islamic stance is on most issues?

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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #33 - July 23, 2009, 07:15 PM

    Whose thoughts?

    I'm just saying that the ones who aspire to understand and interpret Islam the same way that Muhammad did are the better Muslims.  As far as I know the major schools of thought are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii and Hanbali.


    .
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #34 - July 23, 2009, 07:25 PM

    Islame was talking about Kope, BMZ and Marleya

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #35 - July 23, 2009, 07:29 PM

    Whose thoughts?

    Islame was talking about Kope, BMZ and Marleya

    Yes, Shahid I think you are missing my point.

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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #36 - July 23, 2009, 07:31 PM

    I'm just saying that the ones who aspire to understand and interpret Islam the same way that Muhammad did are the better Muslims.  As far as I know the major schools of thought are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii and Hanbali.

    What about Al-Azhar?

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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #37 - July 23, 2009, 07:38 PM

    What about Al-Azhar?


    What about it? Al Azhar is not a school of thought.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #38 - July 23, 2009, 07:45 PM

    In that case I dont know what these schools of thought are, nor what I used to belong to  Huh?

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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #39 - July 23, 2009, 07:54 PM

    Islam is what the Quran says.


    Exactly - well said  Afro

    And as a result all Muslims agree on what it says  Wink

  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #40 - July 23, 2009, 08:02 PM

    In that case I dont know what these schools of thought are, nor what I used to belong to  Huh?


    There are four major schools of thought, or Madhabs, in Sunni Islam; the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali and majority of Muslims fall under one of these. The Salafis do not believe in Madhab and argue that the first three generations after Muhammad were the best of the Muslims and the Salafis use them as an example.

    Seeing as your family is from the Indian Subcontinent, it is most likely you fell under the Hanafi madhab. When you prayed, did you hold your hands below your navel?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #41 - July 23, 2009, 08:10 PM

    Exactly - well said  Afro

    And as a result all Muslims agree on what it says  Wink

    Apart from the differences in translation, the Quran is pretty clear. Muslims disagree on its "interpretations" because they have different value systems. Some cherrypick, some prefer the real thing.

    Others live in denial. Don't they.  Wink

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #42 - July 23, 2009, 08:18 PM

    Agreed Zaephon

    This is why the "reformers" or softer Muslims will have to quote very vague and subtle versus such as: "And allah does not forbid you from being unkind" or surah al kufiroon (you have your religion and I have mine). While those closer to the texts can quote whole full surahs that document the evils of the kuffar and how much they are going to burn in hell.

    Of course I am not saying this to demonise Muslims, I am beyond that, nor to advocate the banning of Islam, rather, because I think the reform of Islam has to go one way-away from the Quran and the scripts. The wahhabis definitely have facts on their side by and large.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #43 - July 23, 2009, 08:22 PM

    The wahhabis definitely have facts on their side by and large.

    Agreed, the wahhabis imo follow what Mo meant by Islam - everyone else adds their own cultural interpretations of it.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #44 - July 23, 2009, 08:23 PM

    There are four major schools of thought, or Madhabs, in Sunni Islam; the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali and majority of Muslims fall under one of these. The Salafis do not believe in Madhab and argue that the first three generations after Muhammad were the best of the Muslims and the Salafis use them as an example.

    So where to Salafi's/Wahhabi's belong?  Was Shahid saying that they all largely agree with each other Huh?

    Quote
    Seeing as your family is from the Indian Subcontinent, it is most likely you fell under the Hanafi madhab. When you prayed, did you hold your hands below your navel?

     yes but I thought we were Deobandi's?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #45 - July 23, 2009, 08:30 PM

    So where to Salafi's/Wahhabi's belong?  Was Shahid saying that they all largely agree with each other Huh?


    The main point of being a Salafi is you don't have a school of thought (even though, it has pretty much become a school of thought). They argue that they just follow the Qur'an and Hadith and try to follow the examples of the first three generations after Muhammad.

     
    Quote
    yes but I thought we were Deobandi's?


    Deobandi comes under the Hanafi Madhab!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #46 - July 23, 2009, 08:35 PM

    Then what about people who follow pirs from S.E Asian subcontinent, sing in their masjids and believe Mohammed had a much higher status?  Surely they do not belong to the same school of thought?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #47 - July 23, 2009, 08:44 PM

    Then what about people who follow pirs from S.E Asian subcontinent, sing in their masjids and believe Mohammed had a much higher status?  Surely they do not belong to the same school of thought?


    Barelvis. Yes they do technically belong to the Hanafi Madhab but it can also be linked to sufism as well. Most Muslims would consider the Barelvi movement to constitute a lot of shirk and and innovations, such as the veneration of saints and pirs.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #48 - July 23, 2009, 08:49 PM

    OMG.  And Shahid reckons they each broadly agree with one another  Huh?  There's little agreement within themselves  mysmilie_977

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #49 - July 23, 2009, 08:52 PM

    Barelvis. Yes they do technically belong to the Hanafi Madhab but it can also be linked to sufism as well. Most Muslims would consider the Barelvi movement to constitute a lot of shirk and and innovations, such as the veneration of saints and pirs.

    There must be a nice tree somewhere that shows the off-shoots of each other.  We haven't even tackled the Shia tree yet. And Islam is supposedly a clear religion.  What was God playing at, Russian roulette?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #50 - July 23, 2009, 08:55 PM

    The four schools of thought do generally agree with each other on important stuff. It is just little stuff like whether you can eat shrimp, or wear you place your hands when praying that they differ on.

    But with the Barelvis, they are an offshoot of the Hanafi madhab and tend to have many heretical tendencies. The Deobandis follow the Hanafi madhab more closely than the Barelvis.

    There must be a nice tree somewhere that shows the off-shoots of each other.  We haven't even tackled the Shia tree yet. And Islam is supposedly a clear religion.  What was God playing at, Russian roulette?


    I have got to admit, I know nothing at all about Shia Islam and the various groups that exist within it.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #51 - July 23, 2009, 09:01 PM

    Actually the 4 mathhabs do differ - even within themselves - depending on who you read. The students of the founders and their students and theirs and their commentators and their commentators etc... all branched out with differing views. And the 4 mathhabs are also only part of the story - especially these days. Sufis who have huge support are generally outside them as are the Shi'a of course, not to mention those who don't strictly follow mathhabs but have their own personal interpretation which today probably constitute the majority.

    The Salafis (Wahhabis) - the very literalist group that Bin Laden and most terrorist groups belong to - and which Ali Sina and the FFI gang point to as representing "True Islam" actually reject the classical view that one must follow a Mathhab - they are in effect a 6th Mathhab  (as some consider the 12'er Shia's to be the 5th Mathhab) - though most (outside the wahhabis themselves) reject the Salafis/Wahhabis as a heresy.

  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #52 - July 23, 2009, 09:01 PM

    The wahhabis definitely have facts on their side by and large.


    Yes, but the same could be said of people like Rabbi Meir Kahane and Randall Terry, and many that came centuries before them, but the fundamentalist bigots of Christianity and Judaism couldn't stop the gradual progressive reform of their religions overall, nor could they prevent the eventual secularization of Christendom and Jewry. And we all know they tried and at many points in history seemed like they might succeed-- even today fundamentalist Christians in America are attempting to turn back the clock and have organizational and cultural successes from time to time, and do so by genuinely appealing to scripture, but they can't put a stop to social evolution as hard as they try.

    My guess is it will be the same for the Wahabbis and other fundamentalist Muslims. From the mid to late 19th century until the mid to late 1970s, the trend in the Muslim and Arab world was towards increasing secularization (with some exceptions like Afghanistan). The Iranian Revolution and the Soviet-Afghan War caused a regression that continues today, but I believe in the grand scheme of things it is temporary. The Muslim and Arab world turned to radical Islam when it perceived that more secular movements like Arab Nationalism, pan-Arabism, Baathism, and Arab Socialism, which started out with much promise, ended up doing very little to improve people's lives. Eventually, Muslims will see the fundamentalists cannot keep their promises either, and have little to offer besides misery, oppression and bloodshed. Consider that the main victims of fundamentalist Muslim terror are Muslim themselves-- that such a movement will continue to receive mass support from the very communities they are killing people in seems unlikely. Eventually there will be enough people in the "rank-and-file" of Islam who see these fuckers for what they are to turn the tide.

    I believe the pendulum may even swing back in our lifetimes. The Iranian Revolution was a watershed event in the Islamic fundamentalist movement, and look at what's happening there. Nothing's gonna change overnight and the shift back towards progress will likely not be as swift and dramatic as the shift towards reaction, but keep in mind that the reactionaries always end up in the dustbin of history sooner or later, because, well, they're reactionaries-- they have nothing new to offer and have difficulty adapting to changing cultural and social trends. Sure, new reactionaries will always pop up to demand a shift back to the old order, but not before irreversible progress has been made. The US has plenty of nasty social reactionaries that are well-organized and have some popular credibility, but where are the politicians arguing to return to the institution of Black chattel slavery or racial segregation? In the history books and fringe organizations with little popular credibility, that's where.

    Don't get me wrong, those who would take us back to the Dark Ages are a scary bunch indeed and sometimes enjoy more popular support in even "advanced" countries than most people here would be comfortable with (and, of course, the situation is even worse in the Third World and Muslim countries), so even the prospect of a temporary victory by such slime (which has been all too common in the Muslim world over the last several decades) is truly a terrifying thought, and these fuckers should be fought to the end. But their end will come and irreversible progress will be made even as new reactionaries arise to challenge further progress. Even the mighty House of Saud will fall someday and their Kingdom relegated to the history books as some horrible, primitive anachronism that somehow survived longer into the modern world than it should have.

    And we'll all hold hands, sing Kum-Ba-Yah, share a Coke, eat an endless amount of pulled-pork sandwiches without ever getting fat, all be gorgeous, have a big orgy where no one gets jealous, live forever without aging, injury or illness, see all of our dead friends again and live in an endless Ecstasy high. Smiley

    But seriously, it won't always be this bad in the Muslim world. Islam will reform eventually, Islamic society will become more secular, and we might even live long enough to see the beginning of that. It could be starting now in Tehran.

    fuck you
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #53 - July 23, 2009, 09:56 PM

    Agreed, the wahhabis imo follow what Mo meant by Islam - everyone else adds their own cultural interpretations of it.


    So this is a question... do you (anyone who agrees with this, not just you) think that Muhammad genuinely meant to teach that Big Al has a hand like you have a hand, and eyes like you have eyes, and so on?  That would be interesting if someone seriously thought that he did and that the resulting belief of the majority of the Sunnis (and Shiah I think) that 'he is not like his creation' and all that was later interpretations added from some other system.  And I mean seriously believe he has a physical hand not the apologetics you hear from some Wahabis that 'he has a hand, and it's like our hands, but in a, uh, symbolic way!'  (Because the true Wahabis are Hanbali in fiqh, but reject the Maturidi and Ashari schools of creed). 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #54 - July 23, 2009, 10:00 PM

    Barelvis. Yes they do technically belong to the Hanafi Madhab but it can also be linked to sufism as well. Most Muslims would consider the Barelvi movement to constitute a lot of shirk and and innovations, such as the veneration of saints and pirs.


    I know Deobandi Sufis who have some of the same ideas as far as mo-man occupying a higher status and singing and having pirs and awliyah and all that jazz. They're just a little more 'Salafi', if you will, about how they approach the world at large (ie women wearing face veils, hating non-Muslims 'for the sake of Allah', etc) 

    for me, the level of nitpicking when you get to this point is soooo illustrative of what a life waster religion is.

    Not just god, but Islamic conception of god.

    Not just Muslim, but Sunni.

    Not just Sunni but Hanafi.

    Not just Hanafi but Deobandi

    (and then normally proceeding to demonise those who are not Sunni-Hanafi-Deobandi and vice versa for the Barelvi or the whoevers).

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #55 - July 23, 2009, 10:10 PM

    So this is a question... do you (anyone who agrees with this, not just you) think that Muhammad genuinely meant to teach that Big Al has a hand like you have a hand, and eyes like you have eyes, and so on?  

    I dont believe the Quran meant to say God had human-like hands and it was just meant figuratively.  Not sure what you are getting at though

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  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #56 - July 23, 2009, 11:42 PM

    I think she means that salafis believe that Allah has a physical hand because there are many verses which talk of Allah's hand, like it might say "Allah's hand protects you" or "Allah is all-seeing".

    So if you think Salafis are the true Muslims then you must believe that true Muslims believe Allah has a physical hand and physical eyes.

    She can't read what I'm saying though because she has put me on ignore so don't expect her to confirm this.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #57 - July 24, 2009, 12:51 AM

    Indeed I agree with how James put it, this is what she means I think.

    Although I do think this is an oversight of the nature of Salafi/Wahhabism.

    Wahhabis don't seem to focus too much on the spiritual nature of Allah, this focus is often found deep at the heart of Sufiism and Sufi-inspired movements. Instead, Wahhabis often focus on Muhammad, ie, how to view him in the context of things. They often call celebrating Muhammads birthday "shirk" (polytheism-nullifies faith) or a "bid'aa" (innovation-haraam) but the nature of Allah is perhaps too sacred a subject for them.

    Moreover, they focus on social and real life issues. The wahhabis tend to emphasize the ritualistic aspects of Islam very much, the 3 day prayer rule really sits with them (if you dont pray for 3 days you are a kaffir-as per a Bukhari or Muslim hadih), as does the 3 Jummuah rule or any other of the strict ritual rules. They also emphasise a strict austerity in life, which is ironic considering the wahhabi stronghold, Saudi Arabia, is a place where the word austerity has no meaning, with it's glittering American malls and fancy restaurants. In wahhabi thought the rule in Islam whereby eyes are not permitted to be drawn extends to pictures, therefore cameras are forbidden according to many wahhabiya. Music is also haraam, very strictly haraam unless it's a male's singing voice alone (without instruments). One of the favourite words of the salafi/wahhabis is "bid'aa" (innovation), anything remotely new say an adaptation, a reformed thought or a new way of looking at things found in Islam is a bid'aa and thus very haraam.

    Indeed Wahhabism strips the mind of any ability to interpret and think. Not that Islam in itself doesn't do a great job of this on most of it's followers, but wahhabism takes the cake.

    The problem is, this form is the form being espoused in the West with Saudi oil sponsered money, the Saudis have plenty of money to pay for new mosques, markazes ("cultural centres), madrassas (religious schools) and maktabs (Islamic bookshops) or as I call them, the four meme (this is a pun because it spreads the memeplex and the pronounciation of meme is the same as the pronounciation of the arabic "meem", which is the letter that corresponds to the latin "M").

    Anyway, wahhabism is at the core of political Islam at the moment and is very dangerous to all societies. Whether you believe Islam is a problemmatic religion or not, I think most people understand how twisted fate is to allow this dangerous form to be the one spread by those with the most wealth and power.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #58 - July 24, 2009, 02:59 AM

    Welcome back FF.... Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: FinallyFree: Meltdown at FFI
     Reply #59 - July 24, 2009, 04:09 AM

    I think she means that salafis believe that Allah has a physical hand because there are many verses which talk of Allah's hand, like it might say "Allah's hand protects you" or "Allah is all-seeing".

    So if you think Salafis are the true Muslims then you must believe that true Muslims believe Allah has a physical hand and physical eyes.

    No. Salafis do not deny Allah having hands, or shins and say they are metaphorical. They do not say they are physical, because Allah is not like us. He has hands, and shins, but they're not like ours. Don't deny them, don't interpret them away, just say they're there, and don't try to explain it, Grin.

    See http://spubs.com/sps/apps_SharhusSunnah.cfm?PointID=80

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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