What if YOUR wrong?

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- Quod Sum Eris
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What if YOUR wrong?
Reply #30 - June 08, 2017, 01:33 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 08, 2017, 01:16 PM
But then came the New Testament and Jesus message of a God who loved mankind unconditionally

*Cough* Original Sin *Cough* Hell for not believing in this one particular version of this one particular god.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #31 - June 08, 2017, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 08, 2017, 01:33 PM
*Cough* Original Sin *Cough* Hell for not believing in this one particular version of this one particular god.

hello QSE,,, my goodness gracious you are on the role .. on the "recent posts" corner of the forum I see your name on every folder but I and you should NOT neglect what Unifier is trying to say w.r.t.comparative religions/faiths and their books .. In fact I am reading all of his 53 posts He does have valid points when he says this to me

Quote

1). Christians believe in what is referred to as the 'Old Testament' and the 'New Testament' - you will be familiar with these terms but perhaps have not thought very deeply about them. .

2). The situation of man and God in the Old Testament period was pretty desperate. The most powerful groups were organized slave societies of a casually brutal stripe. God (in my understanding) was trying to raise up a people with a different way of life not based on slavery and oppression.

3). That people gave us the ~~first declaration of human rights~~ known as the 10 Commandments. There is clearly brutality demanded by God in that period to enable the Jews to carve out a homeland and wrestle it from the warlike occupiers and other things objectionable to modern sensibilities. Unless you can read the OT imaginatively and from the perspective of everything that was ultimately at stake - you could easily interpret it as you do.

4). But then came the New Testament and Jesus message of a God who loved mankind unconditionally (read the parables of the prodigal son, the good Samaritan, the Sermon on The Mount .. etc). Jesus spoke of a spiritual reality and not a worldly empire.

5). He shunned violence and sacrificed his own life for his message and beliefs, he even taught that we should love our enemies. Every one of his disciples died violently at the hands of uncomprehending and brutal persecutors. But eventually his message triumphed over that persecution.

well that is about OT and NT Now coming to Islam he says this

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1). The main theological problem I have with Islam is that while I genuinely admire the seriousness about God and the quiet dignity of many Muslim people, by adopting a legal code from the Old Testament (for basically political reasons if Tom Holland and others are to be believed)

2). Islam literally turned back progress and tried to impose a rules based belief system inimical to my understanding of innate human freedom and true dignity

Now dear QSE .. help me to counter those valid points of Unifier... and why you are pulling ooold folders .. 2009..2010...folders onto the surface ?

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #32 - June 09, 2017, 03:16 AM

I believe in Karma and reincarnation, if I am wrong, well then I think there is no afterlife so I won't know

One has to have been a fool to become wise
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Reply #33 - June 09, 2017, 12:13 PM

Quote from: Unifier on June 08, 2017, 01:16 PM
That people gave us the first declaration of human rights known as the 10 Commandments.

Those were never human rights.

I am the LORD thy God. (Not a human right)
No other gods before me (Against human rights such as freedom of religion and expression)
No graven images or likenesses. (ibn)
Not take the LORD's name in vain. (against freedom of speech)
Remember the sabbath day.(against freedom of religion)
Honour thy father and thy mother. (Not a human right)
You shall not murder ( found in the code of Hammurbi centuries before the Bible)
ou shall not commit adultery. (ibn)
You shall not steal. (ibn)
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (ibn)
You shall not covet. (not a human right)

You were misinformed of what human right are if you think any of those are the first let alone all are human rights
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Reply #34 - June 09, 2017, 01:52 PM

Quote
Those were never human rights.

I am the LORD thy God. (Not a human right)
No other gods before me (Against human rights such as freedom of religion and expression)
No graven images or likenesses. (ibn)
Not take the LORD's name in vain. (against freedom of speech)
Remember the sabbath day.(against freedom of religion)
Honour thy father and thy mother. (Not a human right)
You shall not murder ( found in the code of Hammurbi centuries before the Bible)
ou shall not commit adultery. (ibn)
You shall not steal. (ibn)
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (ibn)
You shall not covet. (not a human right)

You were misinformed of what human right are if you think any of those are the first let alone all are human rights

Exactly. If anything, these are human plights.

Not human rights.

One has to have been a fool to become wise
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Reply #35 - June 09, 2017, 04:00 PM

Quote from: Obtuse1 on June 09, 2017, 01:52 PM
Exactly. If anything, these are human plights.

Not human rights.

no.. no.. dear Obtuse1 Unifier does have point in his response., i
think the human rights he mentioned are about human rights of NT biblical times ..or Jesus Christ time not for the present times..

Anyway this is interesting saying of Seneca, the Younger ., in fact he lived and well known figure during BC-AD transition years ., We have more information about him or Alexander the great than our Jesus Christ...

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"No new findings will ever be made if we rest content with the findings of the past. Besides, a man who follows someone else not only doesn’t find anything, he is not even looking. “But surely you are going to walk in your predecessors’ footsteps?”

Yes indeed, I shall use the old road, but if I find a shorter and easier one I shall open it up. The men who pioneered the old routes are leaders, not our masters. Truth lies open to everyone. There has yet to be a monopoly of truth. And there is plenty of it left for future generations too.

— Seneca, the Younger (4 BC - 65 AD

that is a good one for faith heads..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #36 - June 10, 2017, 02:03 AM

Quote from: bogart on June 09, 2017, 12:13 PM
You shall not murder

Keep in mind right after this was revealed by Moses the jews went on a murder rampage. The context is an israeli shall not murder another israeli. You shall not murder within/one of the tribe. Outside the tribe is fine.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #37 - June 10, 2017, 09:54 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 09, 2017, 04:00 PM
no.. no.. dear Obtuse1 Unifier does have point in his response., i
think the human rights he mentioned are about human rights of NT biblical times ..or Jesus Christ time not for the present times..

But how are they rights?

They tell us what NOT to do, but not what we are granted absolution from. It says do not steal, that's a command not a right.

A right is for example, freedom of expression. The ten commandments say ''Thou shalt not take my name in vain'', for example. This limits freedom of expression, and can therefore not be a right. It is a plight, a duty towards God.

One has to have been a fool to become wise
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Reply #38 - June 10, 2017, 04:07 PM

Quote from: Obtuse1 on June 10, 2017, 09:54 AM
But how are they rights?

well in a way they are., I did not say they are universal human rights and they are NOT universal Human rights but they are/were rights of their time for their religious/cultural congregation..

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They tell us what NOT to do, but not what we are granted absolution from. It says do not steal, that's a command not a right.

A right is for example, freedom of expression. The ten commandments say ''Thou shalt not take my name in vain'', for example. This limits freedom of expression, and can therefore not be a right. It is a plight, a duty towards God.

hmm... well I will wait for unifier to answer those points

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #39 - June 10, 2017, 06:42 PM

Quote from: bogart on June 09, 2017, 12:13 PM
Those were never human rights.

I am the LORD thy God. (Not a human right) (but a fact)
No other gods before me (Against human rights such as freedom of religion and expression) (Bogart God and religion are not the same thing. Tolerant religions acknowledge the validity of other religious paths toward the one God. Islam would be a major exception, and some Christian perspectives not far behind)
No graven images or likenesses. (ibn) (you favor a return to idolatry?)
Not take the LORD's name in vain. (against freedom of speech) (like advocating violence blasphemy is counterproductive)
Remember the sabbath day.(against freedom of religion) (The sabbath was a day of rest at a time when most humans were literally slaves).
Honour thy father and thy mother. (Not a human right) (but a good thing)
You shall not murder ( found in the code of Hammurbi centuries before the Bible) (no comment - don't know enough)
ou shall not commit adultery. (ibn) (adultery always causes deceit, pain and sometimes much worse).
You shall not steal. (ibn)
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (ibn)
You shall not covet. (not a human right)

You were misinformed of what human right are if you think any of those are the first let alone all are human rights

Bogart unless you can overcome your modern prejudice against ancient peoples and times you will find it difficult to appreciate what things meant in their own day - rather than from your personal 21st century perspective. Honoring both father and mother is an early statement of gender equality. The first political leader to voluntarily relinquish power was Moses. The 2nd may have been George Washington!
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Reply #40 - June 10, 2017, 06:45 PM

Quote from: Obtuse1 on June 10, 2017, 09:54 AM
But how are they rights?

They tell us what NOT to do, but not what we are granted absolution from. It says do not steal, that's a command not a right.

A right is for example, freedom of expression. The ten commandments say ''Thou shalt not take my name in vain'', for example. This limits freedom of expression, and can therefore not be a right. It is a plight, a duty towards God.

OK Obtuse1 ... what civil rights can exist in a lawless society where theft and murder are the norm?
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