Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #30 - October 17, 2009, 05:09 AM

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"Even in the United States, where they have a first amendment, there is one red line, which is the incitement of violence and this was exactly my point," he told reporters.

Is he right? I don't think so. This is exactly what anyone who is against free speech would say, as it's very difficult to objectively decide in advance that something is an "incitement to violence".

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #31 - October 17, 2009, 06:02 AM

Quote from: brainyape on October 17, 2009, 05:09 AM
Is he right? I don't think so. This is exactly what anyone who is against free speech would say, as it's very difficult to objectively decide in advance that something is an "incitement to violence".

Is he right that immediate and direct incitement to violence is not protected speech under the First Amendment? Yes. The standard formulated by Justice Holmes, and still held by the US Supreme Court is that the speech must present a "clear and present danger" in order for it to fall outside of the protection of the First Amendment.

Is he right about how that standard is applied to books in the US in defense of his call to ban the Koran? Well, let's see, does the Federal government or any of the fifty states, or thousands of counties and municipalities within this country enforce a ban on the Koran? No. What about the Bible? Again, no. Mein Kampf? No. The Turner Diaries? No. Hunter? No. How about the Anarchist's Cookbook, the Poor Man's James Bond, Get Even, Hit Man, or thousands of other titles like them that are instructional guides on how to manufacture illegal explosive devices, silencers, automatic firearms, poisons, and how to murder, commit violence, extortion, and vandalism against your enemies-- surely those must be illegal, right? Nope, and stop calling me Shirley.

Short version-- as usual, Geert Wilders is full of shit.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #32 - October 18, 2009, 06:56 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on October 14, 2009, 08:08 PM
What I was saying was when Douglas Murray and the Centre for Social Cohesion succesfully got Moussawi banned, they were critical of him being allowed in the country whereas Wilders had been banned weeks before.

Now Wilders' ban has been lifted, so should his. It was just a tongue in cheek comment referring to this.

Having seen Douglas Murray on a BBC panel discussion forum - the guy is as thick as two short planks; I can't believe that anyone would in their right mind take him seriously. The guy has no religious studies training what so ever - how on earth can he facilitate any sort of dialogue when his only answer to fundamentalism is 'rip out parts of the Qur'an that are unsavoury'.

Christ, I'd sooner see Reza Aslan put his five cents into the discussion; at least he would know what he is talking about.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #33 - October 18, 2009, 09:52 AM

Douglas Murray studied that Quran, an actual translation not just reading aloud in Arabic mindlessly, and it made him lose his own Christian faith through it!

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #34 - October 18, 2009, 11:24 AM

So? Islam is more than just the Qur'an.

I saw him on a chat with Anjem Choudry and a few others - like I said, his solution to extremism is to rip out parts of the Qur'an. How can you win an intellectual debate over a matter when the best solution provided is to rip parts out of a book?

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #35 - October 19, 2009, 12:21 AM

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So? Islam is more than just the Qur'an.

I saw him on a chat with Anjem Choudry and a few others - like I said, his solution to extremism is to rip out parts of the Qur'an. How can you win an intellectual debate over a matter when the best solution provided is to rip parts out of a book?

Are you sure that he wasn't speaking metaphorically, as in, simply disregard those parts of the Quran that conflict with common, modern, egalitarian human values?

Plus, when you say 'So? Islam is more than just the Qur'an", it begs the question -- what else is it? Do you mean that one must have read all the hadith and everything else before being allowed to comment upon or formulate an informed judgment on Islam?

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #36 - October 19, 2009, 12:34 AM

RE: billy

Yes, hadith, sunnah, tradition etc. All of those need addressing - does reason or tradition take first priority for example.

As for the ripping - it moved between ripping to ignoring. What needs to happen is to contextualise it and get rid of this stupid idea of abrogation. Killing apostates - assuming you believe that 2:256 is abrogated by a later verse. Ignoring how stupid the idea of abrogation in the first place is - two are in totally different circumstances. One is during peace, the other is during war. What there needs to be done is to change the focus into it being a snap shot in which context needs to be taken into account and the reader asked whether the context is the same now as it was then - well, it isn't the same the same context and the world has changed since then.

What the literalists claim about the Qur'an is this via their own method of interpretation, firstly that the world hasn't changed and everything is just like it was 1400 years ago and second they claim that if Muhammad were here today he would do everything the same way as he did 1400 years ago. They're two problems literalists never address.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #37 - October 19, 2009, 12:41 AM

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Yes, hadith, sunnah, tradition etc. All of those need addressing - does reason or tradition take first priority for example.

Kawaii, if reason takes priority, then why do you need tradition?

Quote
As for the ripping - it moved between ripping to ignoring. What needs to happen is to contextualise it and get rid of this stupid idea of abrogation. Killing apostates - assuming you believe that 2:256 is abrogated by a later verse. Ignoring how stupid the idea of abrogation in the first place is - two are in totally different circumstances. One is during peace, the other is during war. What there needs to be done is to change the focus into it being a snap shot in which context needs to be taken into account and the reader asked whether the context is the same now as it was then - well, it isn't the same the same context and the world has changed since then.

So who cares, then? The Qur'an is obsolete, and who gives a crap what it says. You might as well read the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for guidance, having read both, I would say there is as much context appropriate guidance in the latter as the former.

Quote
What the literalists claim about the Qur'an is this via their own method of interpretation, firstly that the world hasn't changed and everything is just like it was 1400 years ago and second they claim that if Muhammad were here today he would do everything the same way as he did 1400 years ago. They're two problems literalists never address.

True, but I can't see any signs of you addressing them either. Why bother with the Qur'an at all if it is obsolete as a moral text?

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #38 - October 19, 2009, 02:55 AM

Ignoring divine text can and had been done in the past. And people think, just because Christianity did it, then so can islam.

The issue is that with the koran, once you remove and ignore the bad bits, you are left with very little. You are left with so little that you will not have enough to build a religion. With the koran it will not be an exercise on what you remove, it will be an exercise in what you want to keep.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #39 - October 19, 2009, 12:35 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on October 19, 2009, 12:34 AM
RE: billy

Yes, hadith, sunnah, tradition etc. All of those need addressing - does reason or tradition take first priority for example.

This is dangerously like what people say when they want to fireproof Islam from criticism - always attempt to castigate the person forming a critique by claiming they are illegitimate, in this instance, for not having studied intimately every hadith, sunnah etc etc. I'm not saying that is what you intended to mean by saying it, but it is resonant of that.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #40 - October 20, 2009, 06:24 AM

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This is dangerously like what people say when they want to fireproof Islam from criticism - always attempt to castigate the person forming a critique by claiming they are illegitimate, in this instance, for not having studied intimately every hadith, sunnah etc etc. I'm not saying that is what you intended to mean by saying it, but it is resonant of that.

Well, those make make claims of illegitimacy claim their legitimacy comes from having a qualification from some backwater university fully subsidised by the Saudis?

What this is about isn't a matter of an unqualified person analysing the Hadith/sunnah, it is about a small group of Arab supremacists and their apologists who use Islam as their trojan horse to impose their culture on top of another in the form of a religion. The moment when you start talking to these people - they never answer the questions they only attack your qualification. What that tells me is that they have no authority unless people actually believe they have authority. Too bad, like I said, the tribalistic mentality of so many Muslims in that they'll blindly believe what ever some Saudi trained Mullah told them because he happened to have lived in the middle east for several years! it is pathetic.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #41 - October 20, 2009, 03:14 PM

I agree with all of that kaiwai.

But we were talking about Douglas Murray, and the suggestion that he (and by implication) anyone else can't criticise Islam without having studied all the hadith and sunnah, and how this is a traditional mode of fireproofing by those who don't want Islam interrogated. I don't believe you think that way, but its worth being aware of these precepts. The mullahs, imams, and even many laymen and women Muslims do feel that way.

Anyway, peace.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #42 - October 21, 2009, 04:45 AM

Quote
I agree with all of that kaiwai.

But we were talking about Douglas Murray, and the suggestion that he (and by implication) anyone else can't criticise Islam without having studied all the hadith and sunnah, and how this is a traditional mode of fireproofing by those who don't want Islam interrogated. I don't believe you think that way, but its worth being aware of these precepts. The mullahs, imams, and even many laymen and women Muslims do feel that way.

Anyway, peace.

I understand what you mean - I know many Muslims who do hold my view but don't voice it for fear of being ostracised. Sure, they'll interpret it their way in the privacy of their own home but don't expect them to stand on speakers corner doing a sermon on the mound.

What we need are fruitful debates between those Muslims who adamantly defend the status quo verses those of us who are willing to be self critical - but given that the UK government is siding with Saudi backed Islamic lobby groups, don't expect things to change anytime soon.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #43 - October 21, 2009, 08:46 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on October 19, 2009, 12:34 AM
As for the ripping - it moved between ripping to ignoring. What needs to happen is to contextualise it and get rid of this stupid idea of abrogation. Killing apostates - assuming you believe that 2:256 is abrogated by a later verse. Ignoring how stupid the idea of abrogation in the first place is - two are in totally different circumstances. One is during peace, the other is during war. What there needs to be done is to change the focus into it being a snap shot in which context needs to be taken into account and the reader asked whether the context is the same now as it was then - well, it isn't the same the same context and the world has changed since then.

Isn't this "stupid idea of abrogation" stated in the Quran itself?
(Which in turns means you have to skip/ignore that part)

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #44 - October 21, 2009, 09:19 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on October 21, 2009, 08:46 AM
Isn't this "stupid idea of abrogation" stated in the Quran itself?
(Which in turns means you have to skip/ignore that part)

The verse cited one can view it as 'replacing past revelations/signs' being the Bible/Tanakh or within the same book. I subscribe to that position as does Ziauddin Sardar and many others that there are zero abrogations in the Qur'an. The verse is talking about previous signs/revelations.

Abrogation is a nice way of not having to contextualise the whole Qur'an and acknowledge that every piece of revelation is a response to certain conditions rather than revelations for the sake of revelations (context free revelations). As soon as you start contextualising it you soon realise that all the violent verses are only in context to that particular piece of history in the formation of a Muslim community and are not general commandments for Muslims to follow.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #45 - October 21, 2009, 10:32 AM

Doesn't that also imply that the peaceful non-violent verses are contextual, and to be applied only to the specific time and place where they were revealed?

If not, why not?

If not, are you implying that the Quran is a mix between religious/philosophical/moral universal teachings and historical collection of facts?

If yes, why not split it CLEARLY into two different books?

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #46 - October 21, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on October 21, 2009, 10:32 AM
Doesn't that also imply that the peaceful non-violent verses are contextual, and to be applied only to the specific time and place where they were revealed?

If not, why not?

If not, are you implying that the Quran is a mix between religious/philosophical/moral universal teachings and historical collection of facts?

If yes, why not split it CLEARLY into two different books?

It in a nutshell it is a 23 year book of one persons contact with the divine during his life; it is a mixture of history, philosophy, pondering, narratives - just like the Tanakh. You contextualise it as a 23 year narrative and then extract lessons that can be learned - a narrative to which a community can be bound together using. No different to Christianity or Judaism.

That is going to piss some Muslims off but that is the sad reality.

It is Muslims who extrapolate the idea of Islam being an complete life, a nation etc. Generally those who hug onto such romantic notions have a corresponding lack of ability to accept reality.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #47 - October 21, 2009, 10:49 AM

Or maybe you are actively ignoring the fact that the actions of the person narrated in such book seem to picture him as somebody who actually DID mix the divine and his faith with social and political and economic life.

Not to mention the even bigger avalanche of clues coming from the hadiths.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #48 - October 21, 2009, 10:54 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on October 21, 2009, 10:49 AM
Or maybe you are actively ignoring the fact that the actions of the person narrated in such book seem to picture him as somebody who actually DID mix the divine and his faith with social and political and economic life.

Not to mention the even bigger avalanche of clues coming from the hadiths.

Assuming every hadith is genuine.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #49 - October 21, 2009, 10:56 AM

So are you suggesting that Muslims should imitate Mohammed only when it comes to his "spiritual approach" to religion, but ignore his "external manifestation" of religion?
If yes, why?
Because his action were just a product of the context he lived in?
But then, why isn't his spiritual approach to religion also a mere product of such context? :\
Assuming something divine actually exists and wants something out of us, maybe modern believers are also supposed to approach the spiritual matter in a completely different way than Mohammed did, all because of context.
Which makes the Quran simply obsolete.

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #50 - October 21, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on October 21, 2009, 10:54 AM
Assuming every hadith is genuine.

Like I said, his tendency for mixing religion with economics and politics can also be read from the Quran.
(Assuming the Quran is genuine)

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Re: Geert Wilders wins appeal against ban on travelling to UK
Reply #51 - October 21, 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on October 21, 2009, 10:56 AM
So are you suggesting that Muslims should imitate Mohammed only when it comes to his "spiritual approach" to religion, but ignore his "external manifestation" of religion?
If yes, why?
Because his action were just a product of the context he lived in?
But then, why isn't his spiritual approach to religion also a mere product of such context? :\
Assuming something divine actually exists and wants something out of us, maybe modern believers are also supposed to approach the spiritual matter in a completely different way than Mohammed did, all because of context.
Which makes the Quran simply obsolete.

True, I guess if you removed everything out of it you'd end up with something like a loose theism without much substance.

Quote from: Tlaloc on October 21, 2009, 10:59 AM
Like I said, his tendency for mixing religion with economics and politics can also be read from the Quran.
(Assuming the Quran is genuine)

How many Muslims in the UK believe in Islam being a complete way of life; I read reports from the "Center for Islamic Pluralism" and wondering how representative their study was when it came to demand for 'Sharia compliant' paraphernalia?

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