Religiousity these days

12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- pakman
- Ex-Muslim
- Come into my Life
- offline
Religiousity these days
OP - October 15, 2009, 06:48 PM

Back in the mid - 90s a small number of Muslims in the UK began getting more religious. We started to see hijabs and a few beards on the streets. This process accelerated after 911 and an increasing amount of Muslims became devout. In many Muslim areas upto 30-40% of Muslim women started to wear hijab, we started to see hiqabs for the first time and many Muslim men began dressing like Bedoin Arabs.

However, since then its not clear where the trends are heading. Sometimes I see signs that people are getting over this phase and at other times I think maybe not. So fellow COEMers what do you think? Are people getting more or less religious right now?

Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #1 - October 15, 2009, 07:19 PM

I see the trend of becoming religious as starting in the late 70s and early 80s and continuing upwards until Sept 11th 2001.

Since then it has gradually begun to decline among most - but remains strong amongst an increasingly isolated - but fanatic - minority.

Just mho of course - though I remember the 70s and 80s Muslim communities in the UK very well.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #2 - October 15, 2009, 07:24 PM

This would be fascinating to see as a graph - I wonder if there is anyway of quantitatively analysing it to see if, and how, it has changed with time?

Regarding the opening question, I dont know ..

My Book
My Blog
- pakman
- Ex-Muslim
- Come into my Life
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #3 - October 15, 2009, 07:55 PM

Is that a London centric view Hassan? Because London has a life of its own. In the places where I grew up hijabs and beards on young men raised in the UK were unheard of until the early 90s.

Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #4 - October 15, 2009, 08:01 PM

Perhaps - I spent most of my time amongst the Muslim community in London.

But I travelled to Dewsbury in about 1981/2 to join Tableeghis there and went to Leeds and spent 2 weeks there. There was definitely a rise in Islamic consciousness.

It started with the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 and continued with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent rise in western Jihadis that began in the early 80s.

So personally I would say it was UK wide - not just London.

Your estimate of mid 90s seems terribly late to me.

My hey day of Islamic fevour was the early 80s.

By the mid 90s I was having serious doubts and already missing occasional prayers
- Mixu Paatelainen
- Ex-Muslim
- Rudeboy
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #5 - October 15, 2009, 08:06 PM

When I was at primary school in the 90s, not a single girl wore hijab. Now, I would say about 30 - 40% of the girls in the same school wear Hijab. In the 90s, I remember beards being the domain of old men. There were very few young men with religious beards.

I think it is very strange nowadays, and just from everyday experience, I would say that compared to the mid 90s, there are many more liberal and secular people, but there are also many more religious people.

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #6 - October 15, 2009, 08:09 PM

I think there is more polarization now.
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #7 - October 15, 2009, 10:10 PM

I started to become religious around 1987 when I was thirteen. Up until then the only muslims I'd really come across were the mullah's marching the streets during milad or the half mast garden gnomes (deo's). It was the first time I joined Young Muslims. This lasted till I was nineteen. There had been a steady increase in religiousity rising sharply during the Rushdie affair.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #8 - October 15, 2009, 10:15 PM

Interesting you say that - the rushdie affair was a focal point for me when I became more open - i was pro-freedom of speech and believed at the time that his book should be circulated and he should not have had a death sentence.

I remember asking lots of garden gnomes whether they thought he should be murdered, and none of them gave a direct answer because my dad was usually with me at the time!

My Book
My Blog
- pakman
- Ex-Muslim
- Come into my Life
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #9 - October 15, 2009, 10:16 PM

The Rushdie affair and Bosnia may have been trigger points but I think things definetly started changing in the early 90s. In my home town, not a single girl wore hijab until about 1993. TJ were active well before but only in places that have large Gujarati communities. Maybe my analysis is based on Pakistani communities.

Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #10 - October 15, 2009, 10:30 PM

The "big-bang" event in the UK was the Rushdie affair which begins in 1989. Obviously things were shaping before that, but all of a sudden, BANG! Out of nowhere, Muslims on the streets demanding the death of a writer for insulting Mo, Islam became the primary marker of identity politics for Muslims, organisations were emboldened by the mobilisation, Islamists became intertwined in the grassroots life of young Muslims in the UK.....follow the line to July 7th when young Muslim men carried out a suicide bombing in London against their fellow British citizens.

What the trends are now I agree with you -- its difficult to gauge precisely. Its possible that schisms are showing, the extremity of it all has made many Muslims pull back, they have seen where that path leads to, but at the same time, the old religiosity and hard line ideology has a space amongst people.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #11 - October 16, 2009, 01:55 AM

Quote from: Hassan on October 15, 2009, 07:19 PM
I see the trend of becoming religious as starting in the late 70s and early 80s and continuing upwards until Sept 11th 2001.

Since then it has gradually begun to decline among most - but remains strong amongst an increasingly isolated - but fanatic - minority.

Just mho of course - though I remember the 70s and 80s Muslim communities in the UK very well.

My mom said it happened right after the islamic revolution in iran (1979) and directly blame that revolution. Personally I am not sure which is cause&effect but I am pretty sure the iranian islamic revolution added a lot of momentum at least.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #12 - October 16, 2009, 05:49 AM

Sadly it is still on the rise here on North Africa and I am talking about contries from Moroco on the west to Eygpt on east side of NA. All freedom of dress the we saw back in the 70s and 80s have greatly reduced and most women now are Hijabies...

I wonder if this a true trend or I started to notice them more since I apostated?

...
- Jack Torrance
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #13 - October 16, 2009, 06:58 AM

Quote from: Hassan on October 15, 2009, 08:01 PM
Perhaps - I spent most of my time amongst the Muslim community in London.

But I travelled to Dewsbury in about 1981/2 to join Tableeghis there and went to Leeds and spent 2 weeks there. There was definitely a rise in Islamic consciousness.

By the mid 90s I was having serious doubts and already missing occasional prayers

How do you know if there was a rise in Islamic consicousness if you'd never been there before?

1995 - 2006 - that's an awful long time to have serious doubts, and I seem to remember you missing prayers and doing 'haram' things long before that. I also remember you being terrified of Hell back then too, it used to freak me out hearing you go on about it - was it the notion of Hell that made you sign up in the first place and then kept you there, despite your doubts? I still don't understand why you decided to 'convert'. Was it more of a lifestyle change you were after than a spiritual impulse? Or just simply that you were covering all bases 'just in case' Hell was real?

Ha Ha.
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #14 - October 16, 2009, 07:56 AM

Quote
was it the notion of Hell that made you sign up in the first place and then kept you there, despite your doubts?

I think for most people including myself the above is certainly true. I know there are people who go for the other two reasons, which are the lure of heaven or seeking the pleasure of Allah. Statistically, I'm not sure how many people raise the later two above the first, but certainly the threatt of hell is what keeps you from entertaining doubts and questioning.
- Jack Torrance
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #15 - October 16, 2009, 08:49 AM

To me it all seems like putting carts before horses, like, instead of finding an ideology that supports a spiritual belief/experience, and then taking on board the 'rules and rewards', it's the frighteners what done it. Very shallow and self centred I reckon, the opposite of what it should be about, IMO.

Ha Ha.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #16 - October 16, 2009, 08:40 PM

Quote from: Baal on October 16, 2009, 01:55 AM
My mom said it happened right after the islamic revolution in iran (1979) and directly blame that revolution. Personally I am not sure which is cause&effect but I am pretty sure the iranian islamic revolution added a lot of momentum at least.

I agree, Baal - I would say the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran sent a massive Tsunami that began a chain reaction. Perhaps some areas felt it much later - but 1979 was a turning point.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #17 - October 18, 2009, 06:52 AM

Quote
I agree, Baal - I would say the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran sent a massive Tsunami that began a chain reaction. Perhaps some areas felt it much later - but 1979 was a turning point.

Having read Milestones and Islamic Peace and Justice by Sayyid Qutb, I can see how disenfranchised people can be swept up in the romanticised vision being promoted by Sayyid Qutb and recognised by Iran's first newly issued stamp with his picture on it.

Hassan, what would you say caused this disaffection by Muslims in the UK that drew them towards lslamism? what kind of environment in the UK was there when in comes to the immigrant community and UK residents? Islam having been in the UK for longer than just a few decades - what moved people to the direction where they saw that Iran was the impossible turned into reality?

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #18 - October 18, 2009, 06:58 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on October 18, 2009, 06:52 AM
Hassan, what would you say caused this disaffection by Muslims in the UK that drew them towards lslamism? what kind of environment in the UK was there when in comes to the immigrant community and UK residents? Islam having been in the UK for longer than just a few decades - what moved people to the direction where they saw that Iran was the impossible turned into reality?

For me personally it was a search for identity - as well as finding meaning and direction.

I think a great many second-generations Muslims in the UK during the 70s felt the same as I did. A sense that they neither belonged here nor there. They were alienated by the country they lived in and yet also felt no connection to their parents "homeland" and culture. (even their parents religions seemed only a cultural attachment.) Turning to what they saw as "true" or "pure" Islam offered a way to belong to a huge, historic and powerful community that was free from nationality, culture etc...

I wrote a little about this in my blog:

From Chapter 2:

http://abooali.wordpress.com/chapter-2/

The awakening of my own faith seemed to coincide with a general Islamic awakening in the world around me during the late 70s and early 80s. I don?t know whether this rise in Islamic awareness was prompted by events at the time but many second generation Muslims in the UK were beginning to re-discover the religion of their birth, after a long period of having been Muslim only in name. There was an air of excitement and dynamism about the Muslim community, particularly in London. Study circles and informal gatherings sprang up in living rooms or community centres. Each Friday, the display window in the foyer of Regent?s Park Mosque seemed to get ever more packed with little cards announcing new events. Even greeting someone with Salams after prayers usually prompted an invitation to a Zikr (Remembrance of Allah) or a Halaqa (Islamic Discussion Circle). When I took part in such meetings I was struck by the diversity of those attending: Asians, Europeans, Africans, Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Malaysians and Iranians. They came from all walks of life: civil servants, students, bus drivers, doctors and parking attendants. There was no barrier of race, class or nationality. Being a Muslim was the only thing that mattered and it granted instant membership of the Ummah (community). The aim of the Islamic meetings was to learn about Islam, but equally important was the social side ? getting to know other Muslims in the area and building up a sense of brotherhood. Gradually these meetings spawned other meetings catering to the needs of a particular locality, ethnic group or interest.

The first meeting I began attending in 1980 was ?The Islamic Society of the Faithful?, held alternately in the living rooms of Brother Shafiq or Brother Azim, both Asians from East Africa and elders of the local community. Most of us who attended were born Muslims but had not been practising and so there was a sense of discovery and learning. We started going through the basics of what were the beliefs and practises of Islam. In those days there was none of the sectarian or other divisions that became apparent later, none of the dogmatic insistence on this or that point of Islamic faith. The meetings were broad-minded and inclusive. I also enjoyed these meetings because of the wonderful food we had at the end of them. Na?eema, Shafiq?s wife, would serve us Moroccan cous cous, Lebanese stuffed vegetables or Turkish kofta, while Khaira, Azim?s wife, would present us with biriyani, curry and samosas. I loved the sense of belonging and identity this gave me. It was like being part of a huge family that shared a special bond...
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #19 - October 18, 2009, 06:58 PM

This is from chapter 4:

http://abooali.wordpress.com/86/

...The plight of the Palestinians was highlighted in 1982 when unarmed Palestinian men women and children in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, were massacred by Christian militia while the camps were surrounded by the Israeli military. I remember seeing pictures of whole families lying dead in the narrow streets, their bodies bloated by the hot sun, their hands still clutching the ID papers they had been desperately showing. The images created enormous anger within me. I also felt huge frustration that Muslim leaders were doing nothing to help. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan triggered quite different emotions. The struggle of the Mujahideen against the might of a superpower was inspiring and it confirmed to me the belief that only by returning to Islam could Muslims ever put right injustices we had suffered.

Another factor that helped politicize Muslims in the UK at the time was the influx of Muslims from other countries, particularly Arabs. Some were exiles and dissidents who brought with them an international agenda, but most were students or low-paid workers, who came here looking for a better life. Many were not practicing Muslims when they first arrived. Feelings of isolation and estrangement brought them to the Mosque and then to a local study circle where many soon became very devout. I?ve always thought it ironic that Muslims who were not religious in their own country should become religious only after coming to a non-Muslim country. There appears to be a close connection between loss of identity as a result of being uprooted from one?s environment and the sense of belonging and self-esteem that religion provides.

The Arabs in particular soon discovered they were looked up to by other Muslims in the UK. A racial hierarchy has always existed amongst Muslims with Arabs at the top, despite the fact they make up only about 12% of Muslims world-wide. The main reason they are looked up to is that they hold the key to understanding the words of God: the Arabic Language. Muslims believe that the Qur?an is the literal speech of God and cannot be translated. Once it is translated, it is no longer the speech of God, but merely one person?s interpretation of the meaning. A non-Arabic speaker will always be at a disadvantage in any dispute over the meaning of the Qur?an, with an Arabic speaker. When all else fails, the Arabic speaker can simply claim that the other cannot understand the true meaning of God?s word. Another reason for this hierarchy is that the Prophet himself was an Arab. This has a religious implication, since imitating the Prophet Muhammad is an important aspect of Islam. Muhammad reflected the Arab culture in which he lived, and as a result, Arab customs, clothes, and dietary habits heavily influenced Islamic customs, clothes and dietary habits. Many traditional schools of Islamic thought also stipulate that the Khalifah (leader of the Muslims) must be an Arab from the tribe of Quraysh, the Prophet?s tribe.

Many Arabs who came to the UK reveled in the feeling of self-importance their new role as Islamic ?experts? gave them and swapped their western lifestyle for a Jilbab, white cap and the title of Sheikh. This transformation of westernized young men into religious leaders was exemplified by Abu Hamza. He arrived in England in 1979 ? the same year I became a practicing Muslim ? though the only thing he was practicing at the time was his chat up lines in the Soho night club where he worked as a bouncer. It?s hard to conjure up an image of Abu Hamza that is different from the one-eyed, hook handed gargoyle, so beloved of the tabloids, but according to his English ex-wife he was a handsome, romantic and tender young man who had many women chasing after him. But, in 1984, after attending radical talks at a local mosque, he began to become deeply religious, traveling to Afghanistan to fight Jihad against the Russians, where he lost a hand and the use of his left eye. He then retuned to the UK and began preaching as Sheikh Abu Hamza. Although Abu Hamza was a spectacular example of this transformation, it was a pattern I witnessed often. A common factor in all of them was the simplistic literal view of Islam they adopted which allowed them to explain the Qur?an at face value, without reference to the centuries of traditional Islamic scholarship, which none of them had any formal training in.

The majority of indigenous British Muslims were Asians from South East Asia or East Africa. Their parents had come here in the 60s or 70s and still regarded themselves as Pakistanis or Indians rather than British. Their children, on the other hand, felt less connection to their parents? countries, having grown up here in England. They were keen to learn more about an Islam that was free from cultural baggage in order to incorporate it into their daily life, and they saw religion, rather than nationality, as being the basis of their identity. But they were cut off from the Islamic traditions and communities of the Indian sub-continent. Their parents were unable to offer much guidance in Islam. Having come to the West as economic migrants, they either only paid lip-service to Islam or their knowledge was minimal and confused with their local culture. As a result, the younger generation became increasingly influenced by the more recent Arab immigrants. This combination created the right ingredients for literalist and militant movements to take root in the UK. The egalitarian nature of literalism attracted the young, as did the sense of rebellion that militant ideology offered. In reality, these groups had more in common with the sort of revolutionary political parties I had experienced at university than with traditional Islamic movements.

Despite this, most Islamic meetings in the early 80s were broad-minded and inclusive to begin with. ?The East Finchley Da?wa Society?, of which I became a member, was a typical example. It was as a meeting specifically for young Muslims who wanted to learn the basics of Islam. The meetings were mixed and informal and we rotated the leadership amongst the members on a weekly basis. A diverse array of speakers were invited, including Sheikh Darsh, a delegation from The Federation of Student Islamic Societies, a speaker on alternative medicine, an expert on Yoga, the modernist Dr. Essawi, and brother Yusuf Islam. On one occasion we invited some American evangelicals to share in our meeting. They spent the whole evening trying to convert us all to Christianity. Something everyone there took with good humour and impeccable hospitality...

...But by the mid 80s the Da?wa Society had already begun to change. A current of hard-line and narrow-minded doctrine began creeping into meetings, rather like a hidden infection. Often it was a casual comment that someone had heard ?somewhere?:
?You?re not allowed to say Salam to a non-Muslim.?
?It?s forbidden to cut your beard.?
?You mustn?t draw faces.?
These comments were passed on unquestioned, because most didn?t have the knowledge or expertise to challenge them. Meetings became more divided as those who were pushing a particular doctrine insisted that only they had the ?true? Islam and everyone else was wrong. We started seeing new members attending the Da?wa Society, each of them with their own agenda.
?Any announcements?? I asked at the end of one meeting.
?Yes, the Islamic Association of North London is holding an event at the Community Hall next Sunday to celebrate the Birthday of Prophet Muhammad. Everyone is invited.?
?That?s Bid?ah!? interjected a young man who had appeared at the meeting for the first time. ?We are not allowed to celebrate the prophet?s birthday. It?s Haram!?
After a short silence we moved on to other announcements.
He called himself Abu Zubayr, although that wasn?t his real name. He travelled regularly all the way from East London, along with his friends, to give us lessons about the ?correct? Islamic beliefs.
?Islam is perfect and complete. It cannot be changed in any way. Anything new is ?Bid?ah? ? innovation ? and will take you to Hell-Fire.?
He spoke slowly and precisely as though he were following a well rehearsed script.
?Prophet Muhammad ? peace be upon him ? said, ?Every Bid?ah is a going astray and every going astray is in Hell-fire.?? He paused to sip his water, taking three sips just as the Prophet did.
?Today Muslims are indulging in all sorts of evil deviations. They have become misguided and corrupt. Brothers and Sisters! We must return to pure Islam. Return to Islam as it was practiced by the Prophet and his righteous companions, if we want success in this life and the next.?

Over the next few weeks we learnt that many more things were forbidden ? such as, telling jokes that were not literally true, as it was considered a form of lying. This meant that most jokes are forbidden, since there are few that don?t create imaginary situations. Listening to Music was also forbidden ? apart from playing a drum made of animal skin on Eid. Abu Zubair told one new convert that she wasn?t allowed to attend Christmas dinner with her non-Muslim parents because she would be committing Shirk (associating partners with God) the greatest sin in the sight of God. Abu Zubayr and his companions represented a minority of those at our meeting, but the majority of us did not have the skills or the energy to fend off his onslaught.
?We must always remain God conscious,? I said during a talk I?d prepared. ?We should try and remember God is always with us. He is everywhere!?
?That is Kufr! (Infidelity),? interjected Abu Zubayr.
?What is??
?To say Allah is everywhere!?
?Why??
?Because Allah has told us in the Qur?an that He is on the throne above the seven heavens; ?The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne.??
?But it?s simply a figure of speech. God is beyond our understanding.?
?By saying God is everywhere you are implying that God is also in the toilet ? wa ?Aoothu billah (I seek refuge with Allah)!?

Abu Zubayr and his friends were Salafis ? also known as Wahhabis ? who espoused a literalist and puritanical form of Islam that seeks to cleanse the religion of what they regard as innovations, superstitions and heresies. Throughout the 80s, Saudi Arabia financed the spread of Salafi doctrine and subsidized Salafi books flooded Muslim bookshops up and down the country. They also set up offices such as the Muslim World League, in Tottenham Court Road, that gave financial help to Islamic organizations, mosques, schools, students and individuals who were willing to adopt their views. Since Muslims had no other source to turn to when they needed help, most, if not all, were willing to accept the strings attached, thinking it was not a serious problem. I myself applied to the Muslim World League for a grant to study Arabic and Islam in Egypt. I was offered a place, not in Egypt where they considered the teaching to be deviant, but at Medina University in Saudi Arabia. There the curriculum was carefully prepared and taught by Salafi teachers, to ensure that all the students would learn ?true? Islam. Fortunately by the time I had to make my decision, I had been offered a place at SOAS and so was able to turn it down, though my brother Lutfi decided to take up a similar offer and studied at Medina University for several years. He returned with a very dim view of Saudi education and many shocking tales, such as when he fell asleep in the Prophet?s Mosque in Medinah, only to be awoken by the Mutawwa (Religious Police) beating him with sticks. The Mutawwa were appointed by the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice to ensure that everyone complied with the Islamic Law. This involved enforcing Islamic dress, prayer times, dietary laws, arresting boys and girls caught socializing and seizing un-Islamic items such as Western music and films. They also prohibit idolatry, which is loosely defined and apparently includes falling asleep in the Prophet?s mosque. In 2002 they prevented schoolgirls from escaping a burning building in Mecca, because the girls were not covered properly. Fifteen girls died and many more injured as a result. The Mutawwa have even enlisted the help of modern technology to enforce Shari?ah Law, launching a website where people can anonymously tip off the authorities about un-Islamic activity.

The Salafis were not the only militant group gaining ground at the time. Hizbu-Tahrir (literally, the Party of Liberation) was their main competitor for the hearts and minds of young British Muslims. One of their prominent members at the time, Farid Kasim, became a regular visitor to Da?wa Society meetings. His one overriding obsession was the ?Islamic State? (Khilafah). He listened to our talks, not to learn or contribute, but to hijack them and talk about the Khilafah.
?Democracy is completely against Islam. An Islamic State run by the Khalifah is the only form of Islamic government acceptable; ?And those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed are infidels.??
?But there are many principles within Democracy that are completely Islamic,? I replied. ?The idea of Shura (consultation), for example, is the basis of democracy!?
?Democracy is totally incompatible with Islam. Democracy is about giving humans the right to make laws. It gives man that which is entitled exclusively for the Creator. It is obligatory upon every Muslim to reject Democracy.?
?Muslim countries aren?t much better are they??
?That?s because they have abandoned the Khilafah and the Shari?ah.?
?But you can?t just impose an Islamic State on people.?
?If you wait for the people to be ready, then you will never have an Islamic State. We need to change the government first, then people will change.?
?Isn?t Islam about transforming the individual??
?Islam is about establishing God?s Law on earth.?
Farid was a very confrontational young man with an incredible energy and drive that typified the party he helped establish in the UK with Omar Bakri and others. In fact he and Omar Bakri were too radical even for Hizbu-Tahrir and they left to form an even more militant group called Al-Muhajiroun famous for, amongst other things, ?The Magnificent 19″ conference in praise of the suicide bombers responsible for the September 11th attacks.

At universities too, Muslim students were becoming more radicalised. When I joined SOAS Islamic Society in 1980 it was a very scholarly society that attracted professors as well as students. I continued this tradition after I became president and organized talks on the development of Sufism, exhibitions of Islamic Art and seminars on archeological finds. But by the end of my presidency there were a growing number of Hizbu-Tahrir militants trying to muscle their way in. During one meeting, a non-Muslim peace activist who I?d invited to talk about the Palestinian situation was heckled by Hizbu-Tahrir members who stood up and shouted slogans and abuse, eventually bringing the meeting to a halt, in a chaotic atmosphere. Gradually, the audience we used to attract stopped coming. It was difficult to exclude the radicals from either the Islamic Society or Da?wa meetings. By definition, they were for Muslims, and we felt unable to exclude people who were, in every way, pious Muslims. Although their approach was confrontational and aggressive, they were at least trying to do something about what was happening to Muslims. So we tolerated their presence in the hope that they would moderate their stance. But they became ever bolder, taking control of Islamic societies and setting out a much more militant agenda. By the late 80s the influence of these groups had reached a high point and many young British Muslims had become radicalized and were no longer willing to passively accept the perceived injustices or attacks on their religion. They were ready to show their anger and frustration at the slightest provocation. In 1988, that provocation came in the form of a book, ?The Satanic Verses.?

The first time I heard about ?The Satanic Verses? was at a Da?wa Society meeting. After the usual talk and discussion, I asked,
?Any other business??
?Yes,? said Naeem a gentle, soft spoken young Asian from Kenya. ?I have some photocopies from a book called ?The Satanic Verses,? by Salman Rushdie.? He passed them around. ?This book blasphemes against our blessed prophet Muhammad, and the mothers of the believers.?
There were several derogatory quotes about someone called Mahound, some swearing, and comments about the prophet?s wives being whores and the Holy Ka?ba a brothel. None of it made much sense to me. But it didn?t matter; we were all in agreement that it was a vicious attack on Islam; and there were several mutterings of ?Astaghfirullah!? (May God forgive me) and ?Aoozobillah!? (I seek refuge with God) and even the odd cry of ?Allahu Akbar!? (God is Great!). The action we decided to take was fairly mild in comparison with what was to come later. Naeem had the address of Penguin Books, and we each composed individual letters demanding the immediate withdrawal of the novel and a public apology to Muslims.

Soon, however, more militant action was demanded as word about the book was passed around. A momentum built up and the book took on a much greater significance, triggering a wave of pent up anger. Demonstrations and marches were organized. Many countries started banning the book, but this only seemed to increase the level of protest, and book burnings were held in Bolton and Bradford. Then in February of 1989 Ayatollah Khomeini issued his fatwa saying,
?It is incumbent on every Muslim to employ everything he has, his life and his wealth, to send (Rushdie) to hell.?
Although Khomeini was Shi?a and most Muslims in the UK are Sunni, his Fatwa met with approval from many Muslims on the street. There were some more sane and reasoned voices who argued that since Rushdie did not live in an Islamic State, such a punishment simply wasn?t applicable, but their voices were drowned out by the hysteria now surrounding the whole issue...
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #20 - October 18, 2009, 07:39 PM

Quote from: Hassan on October 18, 2009, 06:58 PM
I think a great many second-generations Muslims in the UK during the 70s felt the same as I did. A sense that they neither belonged here nor there. They were alienated by the country they lived in and yet also felt no connection to their parents "homeland" and culture.

I read your blog a while ago and found it really interesting. I was wondering however whether you could elaborate a bit on the bits in your quote I bolded. This would help me gain a better insight into the situation. Thanks!
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #21 - October 18, 2009, 07:50 PM

I meant that many second generation Muslims felt alientated in the UK. They suffered racial abuse and did not feel accepted - nor did they feel any connection to the culture and traditions of the majority (since they were usually kept away from the majority culture by their parents) - at the same time they felt they did not belong to the country of their parents. They had little experience of it and their experiences at school and with UK society had also alienated them from the Pakistani village of their parents etc...

On top of that they felt alientated from their parents backward thinking (the kids were better educated) and saw their parents saying things they didn't really do. Like most economic migrants their parents were mainly "cultural" Muslims.

The kids felt alientaed and struggling for an identity.

"Pure" Islam gave it to them - and their parents had no choice but to approve - though they no-doubt were a little apprehensive, since this was in fact a 'new' type of Islam to them.
- Kenan
- Cultist
- Pub Regular
- Hwee cap-toored eet fohr kay-ohss !!!
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #22 - October 18, 2009, 08:15 PM

Thanks for sharing that with me. Do you think that the same kind of issues lead youngsters to orthodox Islam nowadays? I would hope that present society in general is less racist and more inclusive than the one in the '70.

Quote from: Hassan on October 18, 2009, 07:50 PM
The kids felt alientaed and struggling for an identity.

Why didn`t somebody tell them about universal humanism?
- Kafir-Supersta
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #23 - October 18, 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote from: Hassan on October 18, 2009, 07:50 PM
I meant that many second generation Muslims felt alientated in the UK. They suffered racial abuse and did not feel accepted - nor did they feel any connection to the culture and traditions of the majority (since they were usually kept away from the majority culture by their parents) - at the same time they felt they did not belong to the country of their parents. They had little experience of it and their experiences at school and with UK society had also alienated them from the Pakistani village of their parents etc...

On top of that they felt alientated from their parents backward thinking (the kids were better educated) and saw their parents saying things they didn't really do. Like most economic migrants their parents were mainly "cultural" Muslims.

The kids felt alientaed and struggling for an identity.

"Pure" Islam gave it to them - and their parents had no choice but to approve - though they no-doubt were a little apprehensive, since this was in fact a 'new' type of Islam to them.

Very interesting and indeed valid points, Hassan.

However, I always think, why this happened only to Muslims? Hindus, Sikhs and people from many other non-Muslim and non-white backgrounds integrated into the British society very well. Why only Muslims felt alienated?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #24 - October 18, 2009, 09:11 PM

1. I'm quite sure many Hindus and Sikhs did feel a sense of alienation and need for identity.

2. Their religion proved less of a barrier to integration as Islam did.
- Kafir-Supersta
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #25 - October 18, 2009, 09:18 PM

I agree with your second point.

Naturally, every immigrant had problems to a certain extent integrating into the British society but Islam made this particularly hard for Muslims.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #26 - October 19, 2009, 12:12 AM

Hassan, thanks for linking to those chapters, I found them very interesting. I have bookmarked your blog and I'll be reading your narrative in full when I get some time.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #27 - October 19, 2009, 12:46 AM

Quote from: Hassan on October 18, 2009, 09:11 PM
1. I'm quite sure many Hindus and Sikhs did feel a sense of alienation and need for identity.

2. Their religion proved less of a barrier to integration as Islam did.

Would you say that it was more a matter of refusing to reconcile Islam and Modernity/Enlightenment because of literalism and tradition being held so high in regards to understanding Islam? If there was a tradition of contextualisation and reason then maybe it wouldn't have had the higher barrier which you noted in your post.

I ask this because it isn't as though literalism and tradition are the only methods of understanding Islam when one takes into account the various movements which include Mu'tazili which placed human reason above tradition.

PS. I'd plonk myself into the Mu'tazili category.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- arthur
- Member
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #28 - October 20, 2009, 07:02 PM

That was illuminating,I'll need to read it again when I get some spare time and perhaps I'll read your blog too.
Thanks.
arthur.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Religiousity these days
Reply #29 - October 20, 2009, 08:13 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on October 19, 2009, 12:46 AM
Would you say that it was more a matter of refusing to reconcile Islam and Modernity/Enlightenment because of literalism and tradition being held so high in regards to understanding Islam? If there was a tradition of contextualisation and reason then maybe it wouldn't have had the higher barrier which you noted in your post.

I ask this because it isn't as though literalism and tradition are the only methods of understanding Islam when one takes into account the various movements which include Mu'tazili which placed human reason above tradition.

PS. I'd plonk myself into the Mu'tazili category.

Yes there have been (and are) movements that sought to contextualise Islam as well as movements that give greater scope for interpretation according to the time/place (such as by a Sufi master or by a leader who is believed to be invested with 'special' authority - such as some Shi'ahs and your own sect of Alawites - or even many modernists Sheikhs, of which there are a growing number.)

But such movements have always been the minority and have yet to challenge and defeat mainstream Islam which remains largely traditionalist and literalist.

I'm not saying Islam cannot change, or reform etc... Only that it's going to be a quite a mountain to climb for most.
12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »