Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Yesterday at 06:31 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 12, 2025, 09:05 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
January 11, 2025, 02:52 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
January 09, 2025, 09:33 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
January 09, 2025, 01:34 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM

News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM

Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM

What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Berlin car crasher
by zeca
December 21, 2024, 11:10 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word

 (Read 12729 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #60 - October 23, 2009, 04:44 AM

    What was non-western about the clothes the man was wearing?


    I'm primarily talking about the 'wife' - I'm about half way through the documentary. The husband looks like everyone else.

    With that being said, I'm shocked to see this sort of thing in the UK. New Zealand has some problems but generally speaking, I guess New Zealand has less of it given that over 20% of the population is non-white/pakeha (the wikipedia statistics are incorrect) means that it isn't as bad as it is in the UK.

    Mind you, we don't have agitators like the BNP or Anjem Choudary.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #61 - October 23, 2009, 10:57 AM

    Mind you, we don't have agitators like the BNP or Anjem Choudary.


    Maybe, you have, and they just don't get that much press..
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #62 - October 23, 2009, 11:17 AM

    I'm primarily talking about the 'wife' - I'm about half way through the documentary. The husband looks like everyone else.

    With that being said, I'm shocked to see this sort of thing in the UK. New Zealand has some problems but generally speaking, I guess New Zealand has less of it given that over 20% of the population is non-white/pakeha (the wikipedia statistics are incorrect) means that it isn't as bad as it is in the UK.

    Mind you, we don't have agitators like the BNP or Anjem Choudary.


    I'm curious, is there a lot of racism and irritation towards Maoris by white New Zealanders?
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #63 - October 23, 2009, 04:24 PM

    Quote
    Something similar, that also raises questions

    Journalist Goes Undercover to Discover Life as a Black Man in Germany

    G?nter Wallraff is Germany's most famous investigative journalist. He's made a name for himself by going undercover to reveal the hidden side of many social issues. In his new film, he disguises himself as a black person to explore racial discrimination in Germany. His approach, however, is drawing criticism.

    German journalist G?nter Wallraff has accomplished a lot in his career. He has revealed to the German public how so-called "guest workers," immigrants from Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain and other countries who came here in the 1950s and 60s and stayed, are discriminated against in this country, the questionable working methods of Bild, the country's top-selling tabloid newspaper, and how call-center employees are exploited. His latest project also seems like a noble one. "I want to find out," he says, "what it's like to be black in Germany."

    The project involves both a book, "Aus der sch?nen neuen Welt" ("Out of the Beautiful New World"), and a film, "Schwarz auf Weiss" ("Black on White"), which will be released in theaters in Germany on Thursday. As part of the film, Wallraff has a makeup artist cover him in dark brown makeup, he wears brown contact lenses and he dons an afro wig. Then, using the alias Kwami Ogonno, he takes a trip across Germany. He goes to a soccer game in the eastern city of Cottbus, attends a city festival in Magdeburg, tries to secure a place to pitch a tent in campground in the Teutoburg Forest and takes his German shepherd to dog training in Cologne.

    The film reveals the frightening degree of both blatant and latent racism in Germany. When he goes to festivals, people refuse to drink beer on the same bench. Landlords refuse to rent apartments to him. People seem to have no compunction about calling him the German word for "negro." And hooligans in Eastern Germany even threaten him with physical violence.

    Reception in the Black German Community

    There's just one odd thing about the movie: If Wallraff really wanted to find out what it's like to live as a black in Germany, why didn't he take the time to let any blacks living in Germany answer the question?

    Wallraff's modus operandi is to go undercover and film it to help show and tell what he experiences. He became famous for his 1977 film in which he infiltrated Bild under the alias of Hans Esser. Six years later, he disguised himself as the Turkish guest worker Ali Levent. But is this method appropriate for his new subject matter?

    Black Germans are on the fence about the film. "We find the mindset behind Mr. Wallraff's film very problematic," says Tahir Della, a spokeswoman from the Initiative of Black People in Germany (ISD). "As is so often the case, someone is speaking for rather than with us." Noah Sow, an educator and musician associated with the media watchdog organization Der braune Mob (The Brown Mob), even goes so far as to accuse Wallraff of "making money from our suffering" regardless of whether he "really intends to combat (racism) or not."

    There's something odd about how Wallraff handles the issues of racism in his movie and book as compared with how he handles his other journalistic excursions. For example, in the book's chapter on homelessness, his conversations with several homeless people -- including Manfred, the software entrepreneurs, Walter, the truck driver, and Timo, the high school dropout -- take up several pages. But you'd be hard-pressed to find the transcript of a conversation with anyone black.

    Granted, in one episode in the film, Wallraff talks about the stories blacks who have been discriminated against in various German administrative offices shared with him. And then he dons his disguise to see what it's like for himself. Accompanied by Avad, a black German, he tries to sign up to take the exam to get a hunting license. But the bureaucrats react aggressively to his request and refuse to provide him with information about the test. Avad doesn't say a word, though, and he is never asked what it's like when public servants refused to help him land a job. In the end, Wallraff pushes him out of the picture, too.

    The main criticism levied against Wallraff's film is that it fails to portray the debate about racism against blacks in Germany as being as advanced as it really is. For example, Della criticizes the film for "making absolutely no mention" of how much blacks in Germany have organized themselves. "We're happy that racism is discussed," he says, "but black groups have been doing the same thing for over 25 years."

    Sow has a similar criticism. "Wherever you look," he says, "whether it's in academia, publishing or the annual reports of anti-discrimination offices, knowledge about everyday racism is present -- and accessible with the click of a mouse." He adds that: "Whites just have to stop ignoring and doubting these findings." As he sees it, the only reason Wallraff succeeds in drawing attention to the plight of Kwami Ogonno is that he is "privileged in the racist system (over) research results, publications and testimonials produced by blacks."

    The stories of black Germans have been portrayed in films, books and songs for many years. In 2006, the documentary "Black Deutschland" was released, which featured leading black Germans in the artistic community speaking about how blacks are perceived by themselves and others. In 2007, the black German actress, television host and film director Mo Asumang released "Roots Germania," a film about her search for her family's roots. And, in 2009, black German rapper Samy Deluxe released an album and book entitled "Dis wo ich herkomm" ("That's Where I'm From"), both of which present a controversial examination of his relationship with Germany, his native country.

    In response to such criticisms, however, Wallruff complains that "unfortunately, too few people either watch or read" these works. "It'd be much better," he adds, "if they enjoyed a wider audience."

    What Is True in True-to-life?

    One of the things that Wallraff makes clear in his film is how the lines between race and class discrimination become blurred. For example, when he goes about as Kwami Ogonno wearing no jacket, carrying only a plastic bag and speaking broken German, he is usually treated like anyone else who is economically marginalized. But when he dresses stylishly and speaks German without an accent when visiting an expensive watch store in D?sseldorf, he is treated with the utmost courtesy.

    When he delivered his speech on racism in 2008, then-presidential candidate Barack Obama touched upon this issue of how race and class conflicts often get tangled up together. He spoke about "the resentments of white Americans" who feel threatened by gains made by blacks in American society. He went on to say that "to label (white Americans) as misguided or even racist without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns (also) widens the racial divide and blocks the path to understanding." In the end, he concludes that they would both benefit more by fighting together for more opportunities.

    In his film and book, however, Wallraff fails to reach this sort of subtle differentiation. In the film, he particularly complains that, as a black man, he is "always defined exclusively based on the color of his skin." "When you're black," he says in one of the film's few moments of commentary, "people don't focus on or even recognize what really makes you a person."

    Still, he also seems to commit this same fault of over-simplification in his film. "In my role, I usually just made do without any personal history," he says. "I was simply just 'the other,' 'the black other.'"


    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,656569,00.html
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #64 - October 23, 2009, 10:34 PM

    I'm curious, is there a lot of racism and irritation towards Maoris by white New Zealanders?

    There is some, but there is also a lot of acceptance and respect. It depends who you are dealing with. There are idiots in NZ, just as there are idiots anywhere. Oh and speaking of racism, I can tell you that some Maori are racist too. Smiley   

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #65 - October 24, 2009, 12:15 AM

    I'm curious, is there a lot of racism and irritation towards Maoris by white New Zealanders?


    Not really - is there racism? I'm sure there is. Is there racism to the degree as on the documentary? no.

    Many times those who scream racism in New Zealand tend to be those playing the race card rather than genuine racism. Case in point, I had a part when I was in high school. A bunch of gate crashes came, we stopped then from coming onto the yard - they screamed racism. The ignorant fools ignored the fact that most of the people who had come to the party were non-white (Maori, Polynesian, Asian etc).

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #66 - October 24, 2009, 11:10 AM

    Quote
    Maybe because a lot of Asian women are Muslims?


    Indeed they are. That does not mean you should choose a headscarf wearing Muslim woman to do an undercover expose into racist attitudes. Unless, of course, you had an agenda of presenting racist attitudes as being part and parcel of "Islamophobic" attitudes - two sides of the same coin as it were - and thereby delegitimizing valid hostility towards Islam and what it stands for.

    Quote
    It wouldn't have made much of a difference, I don't think, if the woman wasn't wearing a headscarf. The Muslim guy still got abuse without having Muslim tattooed across his forehead.


    I agree. Exposing racist attitudes could have been achieved by using a non-Islamically dressed non-Muslim woman as an undercover reporter. The thugs may have still erroneously IDd the Asian woman as a Muslim on the basis of the color of her skin and made comments like "please don't kill me", but this would have simply further highlighted the individuals' racism (and ignorance) in tarring all Asian people with the Islamic brush. In fact such tarring is what the BBC and other western media do routinely.  Islam-inspired hate crimes - like gang rape of native non-Muslim women - is usually described as being carried out by "Asians", which racistly implicates ALL Asian people, when "Muslim" would be the accurate description of the perpetrators.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #67 - October 24, 2009, 11:19 AM

    Because the BBC's in on the leftist conspiracy for total Islamification of Western society, along with the Freemasons, the Trilateral Commission and the Jews-- I've got this great pamphlet by a John Birch Society splinter group that tells all about it. PM me your address and I'll send it to you-- it will rock your world.



    The BBC clearly sees its role as countering "negative perceptions" of Islam, routinely seeks to present Islam in a positive light and wastes no opportunity to portray Muslims in the role of victim.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #68 - October 24, 2009, 02:44 PM

     Islam-inspired hate crimes - like gang rape of native non-Muslim women - is usually described as being carried out by "Asians", which racistly implicates ALL Asian people, when "Muslim" would be the accurate description of the perpetrators.

    I've yet to hear of a case where a gang rape has been 'Islam-inspired'. However, I do know of non-Muslim Asian women being gang raped by other Asians for cultural reasons.
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #69 - October 24, 2009, 03:20 PM

    Quote
    I've yet to hear of a case where a gang rape has been 'Islam-inspired'. However, I do know of non-Muslim Asian women being gang raped by other Asians for cultural reasons.


    What were those 'cultural reasons'? The issue of rape and ethnicity and culture is a volatile subject, and I always, always tread carefully when making assertions and conclusions based on conjecture.

    However, Julie Bindel wrote a piece in the Times about how some Pakistani men in the north of England were grooming vulnerable white girls, some of them underage, for sex, to be passed around by friends and then turned to prostitution. But she also mentioned that pimping and sexual exploitation has been in the past in certain periods and milieus a crime that many Black men have been disproportinately involved in. It is a complex issue.

    But that is a whole other discussion. I really don't see what it has to do with the matter of this thread, which is quite simple really. Visceral and viscious racist abuse and violence is a reality in some parts of the country. Its good that awareness of this is maintained.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #70 - October 24, 2009, 07:26 PM

    So why did the BBC feel the need to use a Muslim in a headscarf as their undercover reporter? Was it so they could categorize the antics of these thugs under the heading of "Racism and Islamophobia"?


    Because that kind of abuse is perfectly okay when it's directed against muslims, you mean?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #71 - October 25, 2009, 06:51 AM

    Just a small note, when you mean Asian you mean South East Asian; most people outside the UK when they think of Asians they think of Japanese, Chinese, Korean etc. Most of the Asians in New Zealand come from that area - so worst case scenario for New Zealand will a situation of being over run with Buddhists Tongue

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #72 - October 25, 2009, 11:52 AM

    So what do you call people from Indian & Pakistan?  In the UK they sometimes get called Asians

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #73 - October 25, 2009, 01:25 PM

    So what do you call people from Indian & Pakistan?  In the UK they sometimes get called Asians


    Indians or Pakistanis. Hindu Indians being the most common in New Zealand. Even if they're from Pakistan they'll be labelled Indian lol

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #74 - October 26, 2009, 04:42 PM

    Because that kind of abuse is perfectly okay when it's directed against muslims, you mean?


    Racism is unacceptable and demands for money with menaces is unacceptable when directed against anybody - although if Abu Hamza or others of his ilk were likewise verbally abused and threatened by racist thugs my level of outrage on their behalf would probably hover somewhere near the level of zero.

    Now let us suppose the BBC had used an Islamically dressed blonde, blue-eyed Anglo Saxon female "revert" to Islam as an undercover reporter. Supposing she was likewise abused and threatened. Such abuse could not be described as "racist" because the victim would be white. The issue would then be one of her being targeted because of her Islamic dress - a matter of so-called "Islamophobia".  This is therefore a separate issue from racism and requires a separate investigation on its own merits. The two separate subjects should not be lumped together.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #75 - October 26, 2009, 09:22 PM

    Racism is unacceptable and demands for money with menaces is unacceptable when directed against anybody - although if Abu Hamza or others of his ilk were likewise verbally abused and threatened by racist thugs my level of outrage on their behalf would probably hover somewhere near the level of zero.

    Now let us suppose the BBC had used an Islamically dressed blonde, blue-eyed Anglo Saxon female "revert" to Islam as an undercover reporter. Supposing she was likewise abused and threatened. Such abuse could not be described as "racist" because the victim would be white. The issue would then be one of her being targeted because of her Islamic dress - a matter of so-called "Islamophobia".  This is therefore a separate issue from racism and requires a separate investigation on its own merits. The two separate subjects should not be lumped together.


    It's not a separate issue. The presence of Islam in this country, as in other Western countries, is associated with that of ethnic minorities of immigrant origin. Therefore, hostility is often directed to muslims in general. A lot of prejudices (religious or otherwise) against muslims have been racist, both historically and contemporarily. 'Paki' (or Arab, or Turk) and 'muslim' have been, and are, used interchangeably. Mainstream racist discourse doesn't help. Even if you emphasise the distinction, the two accompany each other, have the same characteristics (most importantly), such as to not be able to justify being treated as entirely, because they're very related.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #76 - October 26, 2009, 09:53 PM

    It's not a separate issue. The presence of Islam in this country, as in other Western countries, is associated with that of ethnic minorities of immigrant origin. Therefore, hostility is often directed to muslims in general. A lot of prejudices (religious or otherwise) against muslims have been racist, both historically and contemporarily. 'Paki' (or Arab, or Turk) and 'muslim' have been, and are, used interchangeably. Mainstream racist discourse doesn't help. Even if you emphasise the distinction, the two accompany each other, have the same characteristics (most importantly), such as to not be able to justify being treated as entirely, because they're very related.


    But you haven't addressed the issue; if she turned up in normal western clothing - would she have received the same treatment? The apparent racism could have been an attack on her different rather than anything to do with race. I know in New Zealand that a sikh was attacked because the person attacking him thought he was a Muslim - nothing to do with race and everything to do with the assumption that the person must be Muslim.

    I'd also like to see the same thing done again but with other races; chinese, korean, arab, turkish, etc. Is it an across the board racism or is it selective racism? if it is selective racism - why the selectivity?

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #77 - October 27, 2009, 03:21 PM

    It's not a separate issue. The presence of Islam in this country, as in other Western countries, is associated with that of ethnic minorities of immigrant origin.


    True, Muslims in the west tend to correlate with "non-white/European" racial types. Likewise Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais.... However, at the end of the day "Muslim" is not a racial designation but is totally based on religio-political belief and practice. Do Hindu victims of racism complain they are victims of "racism AND Hinduphobia"? I have a number of issues with Hinduism. The inherited physical characteristics of its followers is not one of them.

    Quote
    Therefore, hostility is often directed to muslims in general. A lot of prejudices (religious or otherwise) against muslims have been racist, both historically and contemporarily. 'Paki' (or Arab, or Turk) and 'muslim' have been, and are, used interchangeably.


    But "Paki" is short for "Pakistani" ie someone from "Pakistan" (the "Land of the Pure/clean") which the Muslims of India CHOSE to call the separate political entity they insisted on carving out for themselves at India's independence from Britain and at horrendous cost in blood. "Pakistani" therefore does have inherent and unavoidable Islamic overtones - not least to Pakistanis themselves and those of Pakistani origin.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #78 - October 27, 2009, 03:30 PM

    It is, I think, worth noting that the BBC has not seen the issue of alleged harassment and intimidation by Muslims of native non-Muslim people in Britain by Muslims and the alleged creation of Muslim-dominated "no-go" areas as a topic worthy of similar investigation. Perhaps they don't want to fuel "Islamophobia"Huh??!!!!

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #79 - October 27, 2009, 07:30 PM

    But you haven't addressed the issue; if she turned up in normal western clothing - would she have received the same treatment? The apparent racism could have been an attack on her different rather than anything to do with race.


    I have no doubt she would have.

    There isn't a clearly defined line separating those two things ('difference' and 'race').

    As if racism is some nuanced thing  Roll Eyes

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Racism in Bristol: Reduced to a four-letter word
     Reply #80 - October 27, 2009, 07:40 PM

    However, at the end of the day "Muslim" is not a racial designation but is totally based on religio-political belief and practice. Do Hindu victims of racism complain they are victims of "racism AND Hinduphobia"? I have a number of issues with Hinduism. The inherited physical characteristics of its followers is not one of them.


    Racists don't make these distinctions.

    Quote
    But "Paki" is short for "Pakistani" ie someone from "Pakistan" (the "Land of the Pure/clean") which the Muslims of India CHOSE to call the separate political entity they insisted on carving out for themselves at India's independence from Britain and at horrendous cost in blood. "Pakistani" therefore does have inherent and unavoidable Islamic overtones - not least to Pakistanis themselves and those of Pakistani origin.


    That's not the point. The word 'paki' is used a racial slur [most of the time].

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »