Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

Previous page 1 ... 17 18 1920 21 ... 37 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #540 - November 24, 2009, 05:31 AM

Quote from: Tommy on November 24, 2009, 04:48 AM
Gatty, since you believe in Jinns, I must ask, in what basis do you justify Jinn possessions? Do you believe Jinns can posses the human mind to do bad things?

I will never believe it until i perceive it with my "ordinary" senses (eyes, skin, nose). Alhamdulilah, me and some members in my family have ability to see "the unseen" naturally. It happened to me since im in childhood, the older i get the less Jin i accidently see. I dont care if you dont believe me, cos in real life some people who cant see Jin dont believe me either. I know skeptic will call us crazy and stuff. Although, there are people who can open your "3rd eye" if you want to see the unseen, but usually when it's opened you cant close it completely like before, it happened to my aunt.

Quote
If so, do you also believe in psychiatric treatments?

Sure, i believe in medical treatment but i also believe "non-medical" treatment.

Quote
If so, do you believe in Jinn exorcisms?

Yup, but i also believe there are fake ones.

Quote
Last but not least, if you believe in both, then where do you cross the line between Jinn possesions, and just a mental illness? Are there specific symptoms of each?

I cant differ both, cos im not "that good" (i only can sometimes see touch or smell, thats it). So i cant really differ those except if i witness the person's ability or being interrogated together by the group.

Quote
I'm a psychology major (soon to be a psychiatrist) so I'm very intrigued by your views. I don't believe in Jinns, but since you do, I'd like to know

oh, i wanted to learn parapsychology when studying law in university but i thought it's too late (cos ive chosen different major =( )
For me what's currently "superstitious" to people is actually pure science that today's science hasnt been able to define but SOMEDAY WILL (when we're advanced enough).

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Tommy
- Let me feel your butt
- Ex-Muslim
- The Ass Patter
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #541 - November 24, 2009, 05:42 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 05:31 AM
I know skeptic will call us crazy and stuff.

I'm not gonna call you crazy Gatty. Crazy doesn't exist in my vocabulary(coming from a psychology perspective).

I will however suggest you visit a psychiatrist. A friendly advice.

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 05:31 AM
oh, i wanted to learn parapsychology when studying law in university

Parapsychology compared to Psychology is what Astrology is compared to Cosmology--BS.

Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #542 - November 24, 2009, 05:43 AM

Quote from: Tommy on November 24, 2009, 05:19 AM
Describe a pleasant life in the hereafter for me--then describe an unpleasant life in the hereafter.

I think the verse's talking about pleasant life on earth. About unpleasant life in the hereafter, ive never been there :p so i dont know, what i know is there's reaction to an action, there's an eye for an eye, it's natural.

Quote
Cool. So since you believe in hell, and heaven, describe them both for me according to your views. Suppose I'm going to be "one of the losers" in the hereafter. What kind of life would I get after death?

According to my view, heaven & hell could be a planet, different dimension, another earth, etc. "one of the losers" in the hereafter will get his karma/payback in the hereafter (what kind of payback ? maybe experiment ? cos God's like a scientist, he likes experimenting :p)

Quote
So you're just cherry picking....

How come ?

Quote
What in this verse indicates that "anyone" is referring to muslims looking for other religions. Other verses say Christians go to hell:

005.072
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Christians believe God is Jesus and he`s condemning them all to hell. How do you reconcile this 5.69:

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God. And i heard "Trinity" is a new concept either (after around 600 AD), and im sure there are Christians who dont believe Jesus is God and only worship "the Father".

http://www.quran-islam.org
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #543 - November 24, 2009, 05:48 AM

Quote from: Tommy on November 24, 2009, 05:42 AM
I'm not gonna call you crazy Gatty. Crazy doesn't exist in my vocabulary(coming from a psychology perspective).

I will however suggest you visit a psychiatrist. A friendly advice.

Parapsychology compared to Psychology is what Astrology is compared to Cosmology--BS.

And psychiatrist will give me, my mother, my aunt, my friends prescription for medical treatment that we dont need. Well, i understand you'll never understand if you dont experience it yourself. Even "Lighting" was being said as "hand of god" before the scientist found "Electricity".

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Tommy
- Let me feel your butt
- Ex-Muslim
- The Ass Patter
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #544 - November 24, 2009, 05:57 AM

Your analogy is horrible.

Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #545 - November 24, 2009, 06:02 AM

Quote from: Tommy on November 24, 2009, 04:40 AM
So a Muslim doesn't have to be religious in order to be spiritual with their god. Nice.

You bring the alcohol, and I'll bring the sexy hijabis.

Muslim is already Religious term. What i mean is, Non Muslims dont have to have a Religion to be spiritual and meet our God.

Quote
Your analogy is horrible.

Thats okay, make fun of me anytime you want, i dont expect you to believe me either.

Al- Baqarah : 20
The lightning almost takes away their (the kafeers) sight; whenever it shines on them they walk in it, and when it becomes dark to them they stand still; and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have taken away their hearing and their sight; surely Allah has power over all things.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #546 - November 24, 2009, 06:15 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 05:43 AM

I think the verse's talking about pleasant life on earth. About unpleasant life in the hereafter, ive never been there :p so i dont know, what i know is there's reaction to an action, there's an eye for an eye, it's natural.
According to my view, heaven & hell could be a planet, different dimension, another earth, etc. "one of the losers" in the hereafter will get his karma/payback in the hereafter (what kind of payback ? maybe experiment ? cos God's like a scientist, he likes experimenting :p)
How come ?

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God. And i heard "Trinity" is a new concept either (after around 600 AD), and im sure there are Christians who dont believe Jesus is God and only worship "the Father".

No, not all Christians believe Jesus is God, however, most do. When God says "The Christians", to whom is he referring? Most Christians or a minority who are non-trinitarian? I think non-trinitarians are a small minority today and were then, so you couldn`t accurately refer to them as "The Christians". Also, the Trinity is not new- it was established by the early Church and confirmed at the Council of Nicea in 325*- 2-300 years before Muhammad. So the Trinity had been around for more than 300 years before Muhammad came along.

*http://www.christian-history.org/nicea.html

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #547 - November 24, 2009, 06:26 AM

Angel : oh, i see, so it's from around 300 AD, thx f.y.i.
yeah, i know that there are Christians who only worship "The Father" even if theyre only minority. But they do exist
(im also a minority muslim cos i have doubt in hadith).

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #548 - November 24, 2009, 06:51 AM

Yeah, they exist, but the rest get condemned to hell. Anyway, does your doubt in hadith mean all of them or some depending on the collector?

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #549 - November 24, 2009, 07:02 AM

I have doubt in all of them (i cant be sure if 1 hadith's truly authentic or isnt), some of them even "surpass" the "jurisdiction" of Quran itself.. like Hijab rule for example, in hadith hijab is a must, while Quran only say "should" or "let" (as an advice, and not a Must). But i wont argue it with most of the brothers/sisters :p (except if they have doubt in hadith like i do). I wear Hijab when i left home though, but at home i take it off.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #550 - November 24, 2009, 07:18 AM

oh, and i of course dont wear hijab at the swimming pool

http://www.quran-islam.org
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #551 - November 24, 2009, 07:44 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 03:49 AM
Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell

Erm... yes it does.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #552 - November 24, 2009, 07:47 AM

@Hassan : Then give me the verses.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #553 - November 24, 2009, 07:55 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 07:47 AM
@Hassan : Then give me the verses.

Are you kidding me? Have you actually read the Qur'an?

Here is just one of my favourite verses:

"Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins..." (4.56)
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #554 - November 24, 2009, 08:17 AM

You need to understand something....Most people have grown spiritually, morally, philosophically, ect...over the years. The grand majority of muslims are, in fact, better than Islam.
This is why you have people like gatty.
Mark Twain once said 'The Bible is a drug store' (to read the entire essay click here: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/twain01.htm ), it can be easily applied to any religion.

We all know that like 70% of the quran is threats, insults, and scary stories about getting boiling water on your head......You can go pick any page...at random, and it will be something like 'Wooo unto the unbelievers, they will get thorn bushes stuck up their pee holes' or something like that.
However, sane normal people would not like to admit they believe in 'this' god. So maybe pluck a verse here or there, change some context, do some mental backflips.
The fact that the quran is a jumbled mess of stuff thrown together that doesnt make a lick of sense, only adds to the ability to do that, for some people.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- xoBadr
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #555 - November 24, 2009, 08:33 AM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 23, 2009, 09:31 PM
You opinion can be wrong can't it?

Wrong based on evidence right?

To others, of course it can.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #556 - November 24, 2009, 08:39 AM

Quote from: Hassan on November 24, 2009, 07:55 AM
Are you kidding me? Have you actually read the Qur'an?

Here is just one of my favourite verses:

"Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins..." (4.56)

It says "Signs" (that means Quran, and also other revelations/proof of the existence of 1 God), and why it came down ? Because the Jews (at that time) believe in Jibt (anything else to worship other than God), read from 4:51 to 4:56, and ive experienced when a Jin is "Syirik" (worship anything else but God) it's possible to be burnt by certain human. So yeah that might can happen to human soul too.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #557 - November 24, 2009, 08:47 AM

Quote from: Homer on November 24, 2009, 08:17 AM
You need to understand something....Most people have grown spiritually, morally, philosophically, ect...over the years. The grand majority of muslims are, in fact, better than Islam.
This is why you have people like gatty.
Mark Twain once said 'The Bible is a drug store' (to read the entire essay click here: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/twain01.htm ), it can be easily applied to any religion.

We all know that like 70% of the quran is threats, insults, and scary stories about getting boiling water on your head......You can go pick any page...at random, and it will be something like 'Wooo unto the unbelievers, they will get thorn bushes stuck up their pee holes' or something like that.
However, sane normal people would not like to admit they believe in 'this' god. So maybe pluck a verse here or there, change some context, do some mental backflips.
The fact that the quran is a jumbled mess of stuff thrown together that doesnt make a lick of sense, only adds to the ability to do that, for some people.

In my opinion, Quran's presented "as is". And thats the "real world" as far as i know in Jin & Human dimension (i have no idea about the other "world" than those 2). I just hope every human being can finally witness the jin and enter the jin world (i still cant, a few "others" could). Of course it doesnt make sense to "general" people, and Islam isnt the ONLY way, it's just the only complete guide (compare to christianity & judaism) to find "the way". There are spirituality like buddhism or hinduism too that can "help" to connect human with jin and jin's dimension.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #558 - November 24, 2009, 09:05 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 08:39 AM
It says "Signs" (that means Quran, and also other revelations/proof of the existence of 1 God), and why it came down ? Because the Jews (at that time) believe in Jibt (anything else to worship other than God), read from 4:51 to 4:56, and ive experienced when a Jin is "Syirik" (worship anything else but God) it's possible to be burnt by certain human. So yeah that might can happen to human soul too.

Using that pretty loose definition then almost everyone goes to heaven.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #559 - November 24, 2009, 09:11 AM

Quote from: xoBadr on November 24, 2009, 08:33 AM
To others, of course it can.

You mean 2+2 can be 5 to others?

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #560 - November 24, 2009, 09:16 AM

Kaiwai : yeah, and almost everyone can go to heaven indeed
(For me Quran is universal, hadith isnt.)

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #561 - November 24, 2009, 09:19 AM

Quote
Of course it doesnt make sense to "general" people

A) Then what good is it?
B) What are general people?

Quote
and Islam isnt the ONLY way.

Ok, well, you're going to have to take that up with the quran, because it seems to think it is (do I really need to quote it?).

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 08:47 AM
I just hope every human being can finally witness the jin and enter the jin world (i still cant, a few "others" could).

I been there....The discos are off the hook

edit:
To be honest, it doesnt matter if your religion has lollypops and choochoo trains for everyone when they die, I dont believe in heavens and hells and stuff, so the whole morality of it is irrelevant to my unbelief.
However, c'mon...its pretty intellectually dishonest to pretend the allah loves the unbelievers and paradise is for all, hindu, pagan, atheist, and scientologists. I mean seriously.....everyone here has read it a million times, we're not dummies.

You're going to have to make one heck of a good argument

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #562 - November 24, 2009, 09:29 AM

Quote
A) Then what good is it?
B) What are general people?

It's good for people who "see" for example someone like me. AND im sure it's good for some others...
General people means people who've never seen "the unseen"/skeptics/disbelievers (not believing "the unseen").

Quote
Ok, well, you're going to have to take that up with the quran, because it seems to think it is (do I really need to quote it?).

Actually, i hope you can quote some of it (cos im curious)

Quote
I been there....The discos are off the hook

edit:
To be honest, it doesnt matter if your religion has lollypops and choochoo trains for everyone when they die, I dont believe in heavens and hells and stuff, so the whole morality of it is irrelevant to my unbelief.
However, c'mon...its pretty intellectually dishonest to pretend the allah loves the unbelievers and paradise is for all.

Okay, "Unto you your belief, and unto me my belief"

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #563 - November 24, 2009, 09:30 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 08:39 AM
It says "Signs" (that means Quran, and also other revelations/proof of the existence of 1 God), and why it came down ? Because the Jews (at that time) believe in Jibt (anything else to worship other than God), read from 4:51 to 4:56, and ive experienced when a Jin is "Syirik" (worship anything else but God) it's possible to be burnt by certain human. So yeah that might can happen to human soul too.

35:36 But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate.

21:39 If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped!

Exactly what do these verses mean to you? Who goes to hell? No one?

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #564 - November 24, 2009, 09:34 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 09:29 AM

Actually, i hope you can quote some of it (cos im curious)

Ok, this is easy. Let's see. You made the argument that "Islam isnt the ONLY way" (so Baha'i of you).
Then when I said, 'Ok, but the quran disagrees' you said quote the quran...so ok

3:85: And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
I really dont know how more clear it could make it.

Anyway....so what happens to the 'losers'...well, after some jibber jabber about how they rejected the signs, which I'll spare everyone 3:86 (I mean pretty much all of Surat ali imran is about how unbelievers better woooo)

3:87They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of Allah, of the angels, and of all mankind.
3:88:They will abide therein (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while).

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #565 - November 24, 2009, 09:42 AM

No no. I already posted up 3:85. Apparently, only Muslims who seek a religion other than Islam are going to hell .

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #566 - November 24, 2009, 09:45 AM

Quote from: Angel54 on November 24, 2009, 09:42 AM
No no. I already posted up 3:85. Apparently, only Muslims who seek a religion other than Islam are going to hell .

But we're all born muslim...so damned if ya do, damned if ya dont
but seriously....what difference does that even make, as far as whatever point she's trying to prove? So, only ex muslims are going to hell? Cool, I bet that makes everyone here feel better.
Regardless, it doesnt square with about a bizzilion other verses anyway.
See, this goes back to my 'Its a mish mash of nonsense' argument.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #567 - November 24, 2009, 09:45 AM

Quote
35:36 But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate.

21:39 If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped!

Exactly what do these verses mean to you? Who goes to hell? No one?

I never said no one will go to hell :p (and i honestly cant see what "hell" exactly is, is it a planet/a dimension/a star/etc it's beyond my senses)

35:36 and 21:39 sound like when kafeer jin's burnt by human, so it's possible if God burn kafeer human's soul, and it's natural (eye for an eye/karma law/actions-reactions/etc). Of course it probably wont make sense to you. And like i said disbelievers dont equal "Non Muslims".

Are all Non Muslims disbelievers ? No the arent, infact some can fit the definition of people-who-believe.
So who are disbelievers ? Anyone in opposite with definition of believers mention in 2:3-5 about "who are the Believers".

3. Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
4. And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
5. These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Homer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #568 - November 24, 2009, 09:53 AM

Gatty...you're really going to use Surat Al-Baqarah... The one that says repeatedly that I dont believe in Jinn Planets (or whatever) because allah made me not be able to so that he could have people to send to hell...sure you want to open that can of worms?

Quote
Quote from: gatty on Today at 03:45:47 AM
35:36 and 21:39 sound like when kafeer jin's burnt by human, so it's possible if God burn kafeer human's soul, and it's natural (eye for an eye/karma law/actions-reactions/etc).

Come again? In all honesty that makes no sense at all.

Quote
Of course it probably wont make sense to you.

You can say that again. So much for 'Clear Signs'

Haha, I get it now, that's what muhammed said about those silly questioning disbelievers...hence 2:6....
see, its all allahs fault for making me no be able to see, that rascal....keeps the believers sheltered from criticism (as they dont have to actually answer these questions from critics...because they can just blow them off as 'those who cant see')...its an old prophet trick, psychics, shaman, seers, and other spirit hustlers use it all the time

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #569 - November 24, 2009, 10:06 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 05:31 AM
I will never believe it until i perceive it with my "ordinary" senses (eyes, skin, nose)...
me and some members in my family have ability to see "the unseen" naturally..
It happened to me since im in childhood..
the older i get the less Jin i accidently see..
I dont care if you dont believe me,..

You Sir, are a liar and a fraud. You are only taking advantage of people's weakness. Stop lying.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
Previous page 1 ... 17 18 1920 21 ... 37 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »