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 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #600 - November 24, 2009, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 24, 2009, 10:52 AM
    Fascinating... what did you experience?


    Vivid dreams of future events. Deja vous etc...

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #601 - November 24, 2009, 10:58 AM
    You are soooooo Kejawen  Wink
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #602 - November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    Baal Homer, & ras111 you can call or accuse me anything you want, you dont know my life anyway. And there's a God who see things, there's also karma/payback for everything you do on earth.

    Rubaiyat : "Ghaib" for me is science that our recent science and technology havent been able to perceive but someday will. Thats what i believe, you want to believe differently that me thats fine with me.



    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #603 - November 24, 2009, 11:05 AM
    Gatty, no hurt feelings and dont take it so personal.... we're cool. Jangan marah, ok




    Ok, now I really am going to go play video games.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #604 - November 24, 2009, 11:07 AM
    Quote
    Rubaiyat : "Ghaib" for me is science that our recent science and technology havent been able to perceive but someday will. Thats what i believe, you want to believe differently that me thats fine with me.


    No. No. I believe in the unseen. Sorry not "believe", I have evidence of the unseen, the unseen world of the atoms and quarks.

    But they are not supernatural...sorry No djins.

    As for your experience of Deja vous, out of body experiences etc... I suggest you learn more about how the brain creates our sense of reality...

     

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #605 - November 24, 2009, 11:12 AM
    BTW deja-vu is just the brain playing tricks with you.  It occurs when you are looking at something and the event/image gets stored in your long term memory instead of you short term memory.

    They when you reflect on the even that has just occurred, you are convinced that it happened before.

    My point is that it is far more useful to fall back onto science when we have questions that we dont know the answer too, rather than using the supernatural by default.  Science may come back with a solution, but God will never answer back.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #606 - November 24, 2009, 11:25 AM
    I love deja-vu it's a great feeling.  Afro
    IsLame - Where do you get your information from? I'm really interested in how the brain works

    About Kim - Lots of people have been mean and said bad things but lots of the female bloggers only wish you well I see Smiley 
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #607 - November 24, 2009, 11:28 AM
    Rubaiyat, Islame, FYI, i dont believe that "Dejavu" is Supernatural  grin12 but i do believe OBE/astral projection, clairvoyance, telekinesis, telepathy, and some other stuffs to be "supernatural" although.. i believe those things can finally be explained scientifically when our science and technology are more advanced.  Yeah, i know brain can screw up the mind too thats why "we" need groups who can witness together. And then again, it's pure science but just havent been found out yet by science.

    Homer : sure, people judge me all my life, i had a very rough life since a long time (but now it's so much better). Enjoy your video games..have fun =) (i also find joy with wii  dance)
    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #608 - November 24, 2009, 11:34 AM
    Quote
    Rubaiyat, Islame, FYI, i dont believe that "Dejavu" is Supernatural  grin12 but i do believe OBE/astral projection,


    As I said you need to learn about how brain creates our sense of reality.

    OBE scientifically now can be demonstrated by stimulating part of the brain with an electrical current - but it's not supernatural.

    Recent work in Virtual Reality computing has shown that OBE can be triggered by altering how the brain receieves messages from the outside world.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #609 - November 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Rubaiyat : Thats what i mean, what's "supernatural" someday can be explained by science, like gravitation, speed of light, or nucleus, you cant see them but they exist, including Jin. Atom can be known as the smallest particle of us because photon has been invented, and the technology doesnt stop in it.. someday it will be developed maybe in 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000000 years we cant be too ignorant for the chance, even i believe we can find out "the substance of God/angel/jin" with science, cos i know they exist.

    Time for me to feed my cat.. see ya tomorrow, or tonight maybe. Salaam..
    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #610 - November 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    Baal Homer, & ras111 you can call or accuse me anything you want, you dont know my life anyway. And there's a God who see things, there's also karma/payback for everything you do on earth.




    I didn't accuse you of anything... I just told you that what you are experiencing may not be as supernatural as you think it is.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #611 - November 24, 2009, 11:53 AM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Rubaiyat : Thats what i mean, what's "supernatural" someday can be explained by science, like gravitation, speed of light, or nucleus, you cant see them but they exist, including Jin.


    Now you are playing with words again!

    Now "Supernatural" means something that science cannot explain yet!


    There is clear definition for supernatural.

    As I said you can't just change the meaning of words to suit you!

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #612 - November 24, 2009, 12:00 PM
    Once you can explain the supernatural it is no longer supernatural, as Rubaiyat stated supernatural means something which cannot be explained.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #613 - November 24, 2009, 12:02 PM
    Supernatural means something outside nature.  As science only explains the natural world, the supernatural lies outside its remit and always will.  Basically, if science can explain something its not supernatural.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #614 - November 24, 2009, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 08:39 AM
    It says "Signs" (that means Quran, and also other revelations/proof of the existence of 1 God


    Yeah, and your point is?

    Am I missing something here?

    You seem to be very confused?

    First you said: "Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell"

    Then you say: Those who reject God signs, as in Qur'an etc... will go to Hell.

    So what's the difference?

    And weren't you talking about Kim and ex-Muslims in general. (How much more rejection of God's signs do you want?)

    I suspect you are one of those Muslims who tries to wriggle just about everyone out of this nasty place called Hell.

    Then tell me this - who are the ones in that verse that it says are having their skin burnt off and replaced over and over again for all eternity?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #615 - November 24, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Rubaiyat, Cheetah, etc : You dont understand what i meant, what i was saying that one thing which is right now considered as Supernatural, after our science's more advance that one thing we considered previously as "Supernatural" will no longer be Supernatural or "outside nature" for us and become Natural. Ancient people thought the wind were supernatural cos Wind cant be seen but now it's not "outside nature" because science can prove it. Fire/lightning/rainbow were once believed as supernatural, but now no longer considered as Supernatural like they were before because now science can explain what they are.

    The particle of Jin isnt known, but to me Jin maybe consists of electricity cos Jin felt cold/hot in my hand, and could be magnetic cos there were moment when somebody's easily get closed to Jin (like "magnetic" to jin) but there were condition when somebody's difficult to be near Jin. But im not a scientist so i cant really satisfy you people's skepticism, if human & technology still exist & develop in 1000000 years in the future im sure EVERYTHING can be explained.
    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #616 - November 24, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Quote
    Rubaiyat, Cheetah, etc : You dont understand that one thing which is right now considered as Supernatural, after our science's more advance that one thing we considered previously as "Supernatural" will no longer be Supernatural or "outside nature" for us and become Natural.


    In other words, it was never supernatural at all, it was just something natural that humans didn't understand at the time. 

    Quote
    The particle of Jin isnt known, but to be Jin maybe consists of electricity cos Jin felt cold/hot in my hand, and could be magnetic cos there were moment when somebody's easily get closed to Jin (like "magnetic" to jin) but there were condition when somebody's difficult to be near Jin.


    This can already be explained - its called a sensory illusion.  The human brain plays tricks like that the whole time, nothing supernatural about it.

    And btw, if jinns were made of electricity, or were magnetic, scientists would already be able to detect them even if they couldn't see them.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #617 - November 24, 2009, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 24, 2009, 12:44 PM

    First you said: "Quran doesnt say that non Muslims will go to hell"

    Then you say: Those who reject God signs, as in Qur'an etc... will go to Hell.

    So what's the difference?



    By Quran, from what ive read, Non Muslims arent all going to hell, only the disbelievers. Why do you ignore my post about "Not all Non Muslims are Disbelievers" ?

    So here i copy paste it again :

    Are all Non Muslims disbelievers ? No the arent, infact some can fit the definition of people-who-believe.
    So who are disbelievers ? Anyone in opposite with definition of believers mention in 2:3-5 about "who are the Believers".

    3. Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
    4. And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
    5. These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

    Isa, Musa, and their disciples were mentioned in 2:3. The Sabians and believer of the unseen, those who pray, those who do good deed for the others who were mentioned in 2:2. Those people are the people who believe and fear the One God (Allah/Yahweh/Sang Hyang Widhi/whatever you call it). Thats why in 2:62 even if someone believes in "the unseen", if someone's Christian or a Jew, if he believe in the One God, believe that all our "treasures" in this earth is mortal and will vanquish in the judgement day, and do good in life, Allah said "Them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve".



    Quote
    And weren't you talking about Kim and ex-Muslims in general. (How much more rejection of God's signs do you want?)

    I dont know Kim or what's in her heart, and i wont judge her (it's not my right). Sure, judge me anything you like but im not you..


    Quote
    I suspect you are one of those Muslims who tries to wriggle just about everyone out of this nasty place called Hell.

    well go ahead you can judge me falsely with anything youd like, i believe whatever human do on earth isnt free (including judging people stuff) and there'll be payback in the end. Sure, you dont believe it, thats up to you.

    Quote
    Then tell me this - who are the ones in that verse that it says are having their skin burnt off and replaced over and over again for all eternity?

    The disbelievers' souls, ofc not all Non Muslims are disbelievers.


    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #618 - November 24, 2009, 01:44 PM
    So there is nothing Supernatural?

    So God, Angels and Demons, And Satan they are natural right?

    God is part of nature right?


    Quote
    The particle of Jin isnt known, but to me Jin maybe consists of electricity cos Jin felt cold/hot in my hand, and could be magnetic cos there were moment when somebody's easily get closed to Jin (like "magnetic" to jin) but there were condition when somebody's difficult to be near Jin. But im not a scientist so i cant really satisfy you people's skepticism, if human & technology still exist & develop in 1000000 years in the future im sure EVERYTHING can be explained.


    I am sorry. Quran gives clear descriptions what a Djin is.

    You don't have to use your creative imagination to add to God's descriptions.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #619 - November 24, 2009, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 24, 2009, 01:31 PM
    In other words, it was never supernatural at all, it was just something natural that humans didn't understand at the time.  

    This can already be explained - its called a sensory illusion.  The human brain plays tricks like that the whole time, nothing supernatural about it.

    Yes, ive heard that too, it's more than optical illusion when some people can see/talk/touch the same object called "jin" by chance at the same time.

    Quote
    And btw, if jinns were made of electricity, or were magnetic, scientists would already be able to detect them even if they couldn't see them.

    I think it's pretty cool if there're scientists who did that research. When i felt cold/hot in my hand that time im sure a scientist can use his technology to detect it either (cos that time it wasnt only me who felt that but also the other 2 acquaintances of mine in the group - but i wont call them "friends" :p).
    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #620 - November 24, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 01:42 PM
    By Quran, from what ive read, Non Muslims arent all going to hell, only the disbelievers. Why do you ignore my post about "Not all Non Muslims are Disbelievers" ?


    OK, gatty, let's concentrate on those you agree the Qur'an says will burn in Hell forever - having their skin burnt off and the replaced so that they can keep suffering this unbearable pain over and over again.

    What did they do to deserve this?

    How can you justify eternal punishment like this?

    In what way is Allah All-Just, All-Merciful, All-Compassionate, All- Forgiving, All-Gentle etc... if he keeps people alive just so that he can keep torturing them this way for disbelieving in him?

    What is the point of it?

    Haven't you ever wondered why God would be so needlessly and excessively cruel?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #621 - November 24, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    Baal Homer, & ras111 you can call or accuse me anything you want, you dont know my life anyway.

    You are correct. I do not know what entices you to want to lie to people to feel good about yourself.
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    And there's a God who see things,

    Prove it.
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    there's also karma/payback for everything you do on earth.

    Prove it.
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    Rubaiyat : "Ghaib" for me is science that our recent science and technology havent been able to perceive but someday will.

    Do not bring Science into this. You are sure of it now, with and without science.
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
    Thats what i believe, you want to believe differently that me thats fine with me.

    You must mistake me for a westerner who believes everyone is entitled to an equal opinion.

    And you mention something about the Sabians in a previous post. Do not worry about the Sabians, the Arab/muslims took care of the Sabian. They took care of them real good too. I am glad however you still remember them in your prayers.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #622 - November 24, 2009, 02:01 PM
    Quote
    Yes, ive heard that too, it's more than optical illusion when some people can see/talk/touch the same object called "jin" by chance at the same time.


    No, not necessarily.  Mass illusions are a well known phenomena, the best known example I can think of is the time a crowd of several thousand claimed to see the sun dance in the sky over Fatima in 1917.  And apart from mass illusions, it is easily possible that several people can misunderstand the same natural phenomena in a similar way, especially if they share the same superstitions, religious beliefs, etc.

    All you're really revealing with this anecdote of feeling hot/cold in your hand and calling it a jinn is that you're prone to sensory illusions, and you are susceptible to woo. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #623 - November 24, 2009, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
    Rubaiyat : Thats what i mean, what's "supernatural" someday can be explained by science, like gravitation, speed of light, or nucleus, you cant see them but they exist, including Jin. Atom can be known as the smallest particle of us because photon has been invented, and the technology doesnt stop in it.. someday it will be developed maybe in 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000000 years we cant be too ignorant for the chance, even i believe we can find out "the substance of God/angel/jin" with science, cos i know they exist.

    Time for me to feed my cat.. see ya tomorrow, or tonight maybe. Salaam..

    I have never seen this fallacy before, an appeal to the process of discovery.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #624 - November 24, 2009, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 24, 2009, 01:44 PM
    So there is nothing Supernatural?

    So God, Angels and Demons, And Satan they are natural right?

    God is part of nature right?




    I believe so, everything can be explained in the end.

    Quote
    I am sorry. Quran gives clear descriptions what a Djin is.

    You don't have to use your creative imagination to add to God's descriptions.

    I cant force somebody to follow my thought either, so you wanna call me a liar/crazy/or anything thats up to you.

    I know, one Quran definition about Jin was that the jinn was made of "smokeless fire". Fire's substance is oxygen (mabe there're more than just oxygen but i forgot), and it sometimes can or cant be seen. All i know that oxygen consists of atoms, and in atom there're electrical particles (electron/negative, proton/positive, or neutron/neutral). As for how oxygen can produce heat ? i dont know that.


    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #625 - November 24, 2009, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 24, 2009, 02:01 PM
    No, not necessarily.  Mass illusions are a well known phenomena, the best known example I can think of is the time a crowd of several thousand claimed to see the sun dance in the sky over Fatima in 1917. 

    I can accept that, then how if the crowd not just saw it but talked to it ?

    Quote
    All you're really revealing with this anecdote of feeling hot/cold in your hand and calling it a jinn is that you're prone to sensory illusions, and you are susceptible to woo. 

    You could be wrong & could be right. Im not satisfied with the explanation though.
    http://www.quran-islam.org
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #626 - November 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
    I think it was Ahmadi's, or another sect in Islam, that argues that hell is not eternal. So yes, there are some Muslims, whether the majority of Muslims agree if they are within the fold of Islam or not, that believe hell is not forever. Not all Muslims believe hell is eternal, or that all non-Muslims will be punished.
    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #627 - November 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
    It's amazing what we miss while sleeping. I mean, 5 more pages or so? Wow....



    I don't care if the Qu'ran or anything else says I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in Hell. Was one of the problems I had while looking into Islam.

    Gatty, you sound sufi sometimes. And I think, although I believe in some of the things you are saying  - but probably in a different way - it's hard to make your point go accross to people who don't believe in what they call "imaginary friends" (no, it wasn't sarcastic. I actually find this expression amusing and smart. My atheists friends here use it too.). This because it's two different spheres of thinking. Not that you can't discuss it, but it's a hard game, especially in a forum and with no drinks. ( You can have some coffee when you are Muslim)
    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #628 - November 24, 2009, 02:27 PM
    Quote
    I can accept that, then how if the crowd not just saw it but talked to it ?


    The Sun can't talk.

    Quote
    You could be wrong & could be right. Im not satisfied with the explanation though.


    Of course you're not.  Sensory illusions can be very powerful, especially when backed up by confirmation bias in the form of widespread superstitions about mythical creatures like jinn.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #629 - November 24, 2009, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
    I think it was Ahmadi's, or another sect in Islam, that argues that hell is not eternal. So yes, there are some Muslims, whether the majority of Muslims agree if they are within the fold of Islam or not, that believe hell is not forever. Not all Muslims believe hell is eternal, or that all non-Muslims will be punished.


    I believe that hell & heaven are both systems that are eternal, but i dont believe all Non Muslims will go to hell.
    http://www.quran-islam.org
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