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Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #870 - November 25, 2009, 10:12 PM

    No, in that verse it does not mean to hit.

    wrong. You are lying. Stop lying.

    And the verse in question does not necessarily mean that a husband can beat his wife.

    Wrong. You are lying. Stop lying. Notice your first statement negates the possibility of beating. Your Second statement uses the 'not necessarily'. Contradictions are not necessarily lies, but in your case it is.

    It can mean to separate from her for instance.

    No that would be "Idrabou 'Anhun", and even then, it really does not mean to separate. Stop lying.

    I am neither ignorant or a liar. Let's be civilized.

    You are not ignorant. You are lying.

    You asking me for a classical scholar to back me up is a logical fallacy in itself, an argument from authority. I can give you thousands of classical scholars that would be glad to tell you that Islam is the truth. How is that?

    Hassan means to get him a scholar who does not lie. You are of course welcome to bring any scholar you want. But if you bring a liar, then you might as well be the liar. so stop lying (re: to separate). My favorite is the one with "beat them an example".

    How do you know Quran only Muslims do not know Arabic properly?

    Because if the readers do understand what they read, they will go:
    "Holy Sh!t! There is not enough material here to make a religion, we need hadith to understand this dribble"
    or they will go: "Of my god this is so empty, this book is morally bankrupt, I need to reduce the influence of those men/mullahs in my life, so I am going to start by turning them away from the hadith".

    There is however a minority of koranists, who tried to defend their material then got so embarassed defending the hadith, that now they want to get rid of the hadith just so they can salvage dignity.

    And what makes you think you know Arabic more than them? Many Quran only Muslims are native speakers of Arabic just like you.

    the vast vast majority of koran readers, do not want to understand what they are reciting. It hurts muslim too much to find out so they look the other way and encourage each other and their kids to look the other way. You talk to Christians and jews, and you will find they know their stories and their verses inside out, but you talk to muslims and you get the "Allahu Aalam".

    Regards,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #871 - November 25, 2009, 10:12 PM

    Yes.There is a great amount of literature on this.None of these people.No there are not. If there are the Pagans of Quraysh, who were the most sophisticated scholars of Arabic would have pointed this and Islam would have been dead.If the grammar rules were derived from the Quran, as you rightfully said, then it cannot contain any grammatical discrepancies.What kind of research have you done? How long did it take you? Whom did you read for?Debateable.I have not done this. I am answering your objections to Hell.It is directed at all illogical people.No I am not.Right.No He does not.If an evidence is presented to you and you reject it for no logical reason, then you deserve punishment.Here it is:
    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." [2:62]
    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things." [22:17]Islam is submission to God. If you do not submit to the Creator you do not deserve Paradise.

    Regards,



    A great amount of literature on something does not mean its true. A great amount is written on how women are inferior to men in intelligence by learned people like Jamal Badawi.

    You think my conclusions are baseless? Ive been an apostate since June of this year and done research everyday since. Not long maybe, but Ive done enough to want to pull my hair out at conclusions people come to. I've looked at both sides because I have to. I have to give both sides a fair chance to be able to come to my own rational conclusion. I do this to get closer to the truth. 10 years, I wont think any differently about Islam. A book that tells me that I am my husband's tilth and that he can approach me as he likes is not a book for me. I believe in God as a deist, but a not a god that would restrict my rights like this. Because of this verse, rape can't exist in a marriage. It angers me to no end that God doesn't  punish rape in the  Quran. Not fucking once. Not even if you nor the victim are unmarried(this isnt zina). Dont steal, have pre or extra marital sex, don't kill (depending on the situatuion), but not one "Don't rape women" or "Don't beat your wives". I've researched this very much. Read sites, articles, books, but nothing.This book is meant to be complete. I'm just wondering where these things are meant to be found. My own conscience? Then what do I need the Quran for?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #872 - November 25, 2009, 10:15 PM

    Salem, can you find me where from only the Quran are women allowed to initiate divorce proceedings?

    I know about talaq & khula, but please find me the Quranic verses.

    Here're the verses pertaining to divorce, I've taken it from Rashad Khalifa's Quranist site, as thats' by Quranists too.

    [2:226-227] Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. If they go through with the divorce, then GOD is Hearer, Knower.


    [65:2] Once the interim is fulfilled, you may reconcile with them equitably, or go through with the separation equitably. You shall have two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD. This is to enlighten those who believe in GOD and the Last Day. Anyone who reverences GOD, He will create an exit for him.


    [2:228] The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

    [65:4-5] As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him. This is GOD's command that He sends down to you. Anyone who reverences GOD, He remits his sins, and rewards him generously.


    [33:49] O you who believe, if you married believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, they do not owe you any waiting interim (before marrying another man). You shall compensate them equitably, and let them go amicably.





    [2:236] You commit no error by divorcing the women before touching them, or before setting the dowry for them. In this case, you shall compensate them - the rich as he can afford and the poor as he can afford - an equitable compensation. This is a duty upon the righteous.

    [2:237] If you divorce them before touching them, but after you had set the dowry for them, the compensation shall be half the dowry, unless they voluntarily forfeit their rights, or the party responsible for causing the divorce chooses to forfeit the dowry. To forfeit is closer to righteousness. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. GOD is Seer of everything you do.



    [2:231] If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim (three menstruations), you shall allow them to live in the same home amicably, or let them leave amicably. Do not force them to stay against their will, as a revenge. Anyone who does this wrongs his own soul. Do not take GOD's revelations in vain. Remember GOD's blessings upon you, and that He sent down to you the scripture and wisdom to enlighten you. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is aware of all things.


    [2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.


    [2:232] If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim, do not prevent them from remarrying their husbands, if they reconcile amicably. This shall be heeded by those among you who believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is purer for you, and more righteous. GOD knows, while you do not know.


    [2:230] If he divorces her (for the third time), it is unlawful for him to remarry her, unless she marries another man, then he divorces her. The first husband can then remarry her, so long as they observe GOD's laws. These are GOD's laws; He explains them for people who know.

    Thus, from the Quran, in all the verses, its the man divorcing his wife, not vice versa.Man is initiating divorce, no verse says, "When you divorce your husbands".


    The following is the omly verse wherein a woman divorces, but its a non Muslim woman divorcing her non Muslim husband & marrying a Muslim, this isn't the case in most divorces.

    [60:10]  O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD's rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

    So using the Quran only, where is the woman shown initiating the divorce, why does Allah always speak to the man on how to divorce his wife\wives, not even once vice versa?

    Even khula would have to be prohibited by Quranists!  grin12



    Verse 5:1 asks Muslims to honour their contracts. A Muslim woman can put in her contract that she possess the right to divorce. So there is equality in divorce/"Khula".

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #873 - November 25, 2009, 10:16 PM

    Wrong - I said in this verse it only means "hit".

    That is not how it looked at first.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #874 - November 25, 2009, 10:16 PM

    It cannot mean "to have sex with". It is possible to mean hit and it is possible to mean separate.


    Some translate it as such. Cant find the translation, but it's there.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #875 - November 25, 2009, 10:19 PM

    That is not how it looked at first.
    Regards,

     Huh? Do you accept it means hit now?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #876 - November 25, 2009, 10:20 PM

    You talk to Christians and jews, and you will find they know their stories and their verses inside out,


    What do you mean by that? (it's a honest question)

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #877 - November 25, 2009, 10:22 PM

    005.001
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.

    What?? What's this got to do with divorce? This verse has nothing to do with divorce. You cant twist obligations to mean marriage too. And its not through the quran that women can stipulate divorce. This was made up based on nothin quranic. And I believe the man must agree first.

    You shouldve used verse 2 229

    002.229
    YUSUFALI: A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #878 - November 25, 2009, 10:22 PM

    According to the quran, what happens to Kaffirs when they die?  Also what is your view on alcohol, hijab and circumcision?

    Nonbelievers are not one group.
    Those who did not hear of Islam would go to Paradise
    Those who got the evidence and rejected it would go to Hell
    Those who genuinely found no compelling evidence and rejected it would go to Paradise
    If belief in the Creator of the world is indeed a "fitra" in human beings, an innate thing, then all atheists should go to Hell because they are going against their very nature.
    Alcohol is bad and prohibited.
    Hijab is not mandatory.
    Circumcision is a distortion of the human body. It is advocated by the Holy Quran at all. It is a Jewish law that found its way into Muslim tradition.

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #879 - November 25, 2009, 10:24 PM

    Sorry missed that.


    No problem.

    ضرب الله مثلا
    Clearly there is no preposition here.


    That's fine - I did say that you could use something like مثلا previously.

    The problem is not that ضرب can't have different meaning but that in this verse it cannot.

    The object of the verb in the hit verse is هن (Them) in the verse you quote it  is مثلا (similitude).

    The verse you quote mean "God strike a similitude" the verse in Nisa 34 means "Hit them (the women)"

    It cannot mean strike a similitude - there is no word similtude (مثلا) there! It can not mean leave them alone as this requires a preposition. If daraba takes a direct object (and that object is not something like similitude) then it means hit it.

    OK, so you can't show me ONE classical scholar who says it does NOT mean hit.

    Then please tell me ANY scholar who says it does NOT mean hit.

    I'm now very curious. Is is this guy Rashad Khalifa or whatever his name is? The guy who founded the Qur'an-Only sect?

    Apart from Qur'an-only sect - does anyone else believe it means something else?

    Do you believe it definitely does NOT mean "hit"

    Did Allah leave it open to confusion. Some Muslims hitting - some (a tiny fraction) 'leaving alone'?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #880 - November 25, 2009, 10:26 PM

    He's not disagreeing that is has several meanings. Just that it only means one thing in that verse.

    But it only means One thing in that verse, the examples he brought do not apply on this verse.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #881 - November 25, 2009, 10:26 PM

    Nonbelievers are not one group.
    Those who did not hear of Islam would go to Paradise
    Those who got the evidence and rejected it would go to Hell
    Those who genuinely found no compelling evidence and rejected it would go to Paradise
    If belief in the Creator of the world is indeed a "fitra" in human beings, an innate thing, then all atheists should go to Hell because they are going against their very nature.
    Alcohol is bad and prohibited.
    Hijab is not mandatory.
    Circumcision is a distortion of the human body. It is advocated by the Holy Quran at all. It is a Jewish law that found its way into Muslim tradition.

    Regards, Smiley

    Apart from prohiiting Alcohol (although it does not say this in the quran), I like your version of Islam  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #882 - November 25, 2009, 10:31 PM

    As for theives, the Quran does not even say to cut their lims off. "Qataa Yad" here means to prevent/admonish them.

    Qataa = Cut
    Yad = hand

    Stop lying. This is not an Ajami mosque where you can go and bully people with language and hope their faith will protect you from questions.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #883 - November 25, 2009, 10:35 PM

    But it only means One thing in that verse, the examples he brought do not apply on this verse.


    Yea I know. Thats what Im saying. Edit- sorry I wasnt clear with the second sentence. I meant thats what he wa trying to prove, not disprove.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #884 - November 25, 2009, 10:38 PM

    Quote
    Pure logic!

    Yes pure logic. What was so funny about it?
    Quote
    If I ask a 5 year old, he or she too would define Santa for me as someone who comes from the Poles with presents for her & her siblings every Xmas eve while they sleep!  

    However, that too would be no valid definition.We're talking of unseen & unknown stuff-your Allah & the kid's Santa both.  

    If God is such a contingent being, He'd not feel any loss if people failed to worship Him!

    You did not understand at all.
    God is not a contingent being at all. If He exists, He must necessarily exist.
    If God exists, He must be omnipotent, omniscient and good. That's how philosophers define Him.
    God does not feel any loss if people did not worship Him.
    "but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures." [3:97]
    Quote
    As I said, you have showed no more than a child shows Santa!

    There's nothing to disprove that many gods collaborated in making the Universe, or that God doesn't care whether we worship Him or not!

    If the existence of multiple gods is impossible in the first place, then the universe could not have come into existence by multiple gods.
    Quote
    I never claimed that Hinduism, Buddhism or atheism are more believable, but they too come with your type of strawmen claiming to have "evidence" & "proof".

    You did not read posts carefully. I did not say that I am here to provide evidence or proof.
    So I gather from your above comment that you are not an atheist?
    Quote
    Jail exists, we see & know it, Hell exists in your head, just like reincarnations exist in the Hindu & Buddhists head. Oh & reincarnations too aim to establish justice, only the Hell in your Head is a bit more gruesome!

    But our discussion was about whether Hell exists or not. It was about whether Hell was a just punishment. I explained why Hell is a just punishment for the rejectors of Godly truth. Hell is only gruesome for earthly sins like murder and robbery, but heavenly sins are something totally different and Hell is not gruesome here. Establishing justice is not gruesome. You did not refute that.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #885 - November 25, 2009, 10:41 PM

    Salem could you provide some insight as to the following?

    Here is a transliteration of verse 16:66:

    Wa-inna lakum fee al-anAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butoonihi min bayni farthin wadamin labanan khalisan sa-ighan lilshsharibeena

    and 23 21:

    Wa-inna lakum fee al-anAAami laAAibratan nusqeekum mimma fee butooniha walakum feeha manafiAAu katheeratun waminha ta/kuloona

    Could you please explain the butooniha/butoonihi difference?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #886 - November 25, 2009, 10:45 PM

    Just a quick note here,
    Qataa = Cut
    Yad = hand

    Stop lying. This is not an Ajami mosque where you can go and bully people with language and hope their faith will protect you from questions.

    So far all of your comments start with "stop lying". Hey, you can be more respectable than that. And I know that this is not an "Ajami" mosque (As if mosques where divided into Ajami and Arabi). People can ask questions in mosques and I know that there are Arab members here. Hassan is one.
    So advising others look in the mirror first.
    And read verse 12:31.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #887 - November 25, 2009, 11:28 PM

    Saleem - are you follower of Rashad Kahlifa?


    He translates as mark I think not cut.

    I have debated this with many people.

    And the word is cut in the context the verse is written.


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #888 - November 25, 2009, 11:42 PM

    Khalifa or Yuksel probably. Probably the latter, since he translates idrib as separate. Khalifa says beat.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #889 - November 26, 2009, 12:13 AM

    The evidence of God is not derived from the Quran. It is derived by rational thought.


    Hi Salem1111,

    Welcome to the forum. Hope you are enjoying the discussions here.

    I don't want you to answer this here because this thread has become extremely long, but I would appreciate it, if you could start another discussion (once you have finished on this thread) on what you have quoted above. Can you please outline the rational arguments for the existence of God and show me and the rest of us here why you think they are robust, if at all?

    Many Thanks.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #890 - November 26, 2009, 02:34 AM

    You mean 2+2 can be 5 to others?


    .......
    Obviously if something is my opinion, it's what I believe is right (to me, at least). Not everyone is going to agree my opinion is correct, and that's perfectly fine.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #891 - November 26, 2009, 02:57 AM

    Apart from prohiiting Alcohol (although it does not say this in the quran), I like your version of Islam  Afro


    yeah, salem's Islam is the one I believed in before I apostated... Afro

    ...
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #892 - November 26, 2009, 03:05 AM

    it's just terribly fascinating how all these Muslims who pop up here to tell us how bad Kim is or how bad we are tend not be run of the mill sunnis.


    Actually everyone stopped talking about her long ago I thought, but maybe you're right, maybe there were here originally for that. I keep coming back to read too...but I am more of a run of the mill sunni. I must admit I don't like it when it turns nasty as I don't see there is a need for expletives or denigration, but the general discussion on hadith, Quran, jinn and even the supernormal is really interesting.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #893 - November 26, 2009, 03:07 AM

    Yes. We just keep posting here to see if we can reach the 1000th post.

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #894 - November 26, 2009, 03:09 AM

    Well if I find I have nothing to do Trumora then I'll come and join in the posts a bit more... Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #895 - November 26, 2009, 03:27 AM

    Verse 5:1 asks Muslims to honour their contracts. A Muslim woman can put in her contract that she possess the right to divorce. So there is equality in divorce/"Khula".

    Regards,


    Hi salem!

    How can you give me two verses with no relation to each other & then expect me to accept? Do you think I am too ignorant to know & too lazy to check?  Cheesy

    005.001
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fulfil your indentures. The beast of cattle is made lawful unto you (for food) except that which is announced unto you (herein), game being unlawful when ye are on the pilgrimage. Lo! Allah ordaineth that which pleaseth Him.
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! fulfill the obligations. The cattle quadrupeds are allowed to you except that which is recited to you, not violating the prohibition against game when you are entering upon the performance of the pilgrimage; surely Allah orders what He desires.


    This verse talks about loads of stuff including eating animals with 4 feet, so Muslim women can eat 4 footed animals.

    But where does it mention women's right to include right to divorce in contract?

    You're a Quranist when it suits you, & a Quran + acceptor of Muslim social practices when you want. Becuse women make such contracts, I now have to assume it comes from the Quran?  Cheesy

    The divorce verses are another instance of Muhammad's lack of equality & clarity, he forgot to mention entirely how women initiate divorces or women initiating any divorces.

    Read any modern law book, they'd be far more clear, you don't have to search a verse on say the nation's dietary prohibitions & general contracts to find mention about how women should initiate divorce.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #896 - November 26, 2009, 03:34 AM

    75% of my posts have been in this one thread alone lol.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #897 - November 26, 2009, 03:41 AM

    75% of my posts have been in this one thread alone lol.


    I think we should wait till the 1000th post and publish it.

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #898 - November 26, 2009, 03:45 AM

    Yes pure logic. What was so funny about it?


    Because your "pure logic" is like the science of detecting real witches from powerless ones!  Cheesy

    You did not understand at all.
    If He exists, He must necessarily exist.


    Again, no evidence of His neccessarily existing.

    If God exists, He must be omnipotent, omniscient and good. That's how philosophers define Him.


    Many philosophers have defined & explained God in various ways, many reject all ideas of God, others feel that a Creator should have no objections should people fail to worship Him, others have said that monotheism is doomed to be reduced to atheism by getting rid of the last remaining God & so on.

    You need to read far more than your Quran & Quran supporting philosophies.

    God does not feel any loss if people did not worship Him.
    "but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures." [3:97]


    Ah, God might not feel any pain, but Muhammad would surely feel the pain of the loss of adherents!  Wink

    Thats why, even inspite of this one line, Muhammad had to fill his book with threats of Hellfire for the deniers & mockers.


    If the existence of multiple gods is impossible in the first place, then the universe could not have come into existence by multiple gods.


    The existence of multiple Gods isn't impossible at all, just as possible or impossible as a single god.

    Those are assumptions on your & the Quran's part that god must exist, He must be single & vehemently opposed to anyone thinking that He's more than one, & there can't be more gods.

    So I gather from your above comment that you are not an atheist?


    No I'm Zoroastrian(look it up if you don't know) & agnostic about God. Jews & Muslims aren't the only ones with single god. I find the philosophies of Buddhism(not Hinduism though) far more respectable than the Quran, infact probably any religious book I've read is less nasty than the Quran.

    But our discussion was about whether Hell exists or not. It was about whether Hell was a just punishment. I explained why Hell is a just punishment for the rejectors of Godly truth. Hell is only gruesome for earthly sins like murder and robbery, but heavenly sins are something totally different and Hell is not gruesome here. Establishing justice is not gruesome. You did not refute that.


    First, there's no evidence for the type of godly truth that you claim has "evidence". Or that God cares if folks on earth can't believe in Him. Also, the bit about "Heavenly sin" is another laughable point!  Cheesy

    Those things again exist in the believers' heads, unlike earthly sins.


    Refuting what you're saying is analogous to, "There are women with magical powers who can cause harm by calling Satan & jinns, so they must be killed. By definition, witches are such harmful women, refute that."  Cheesy



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #899 - November 26, 2009, 03:49 AM

    I'm not sure, but I think everyone's just about given up on this Rashna lol. Unless, of course, someone sends this off in another direction again. It's kinda fun for some time dance.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
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