Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #960 - November 27, 2009, 06:31 AM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 27, 2009, 01:43 AM
Do you understand the concept of 'أسباب النزول' (Asbab'ul'Nuzul)?

I don't think anyone will disagree that sunni and shia Islam consider alcohol as haram (using hadiths as well as quran b/c quran is mubeen and needs no explanation of course, except when it does). But the quran itself merely warns against it and advises another course.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #961 - November 27, 2009, 06:51 AM

I just finished 4 heinekens...

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #962 - November 27, 2009, 07:10 AM

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #963 - November 27, 2009, 07:21 AM

I shout Allahu Akbar after I finished each one.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #964 - November 27, 2009, 07:47 AM

Quote from: Submissive Bob on November 27, 2009, 02:58 AM
God or not. This one is our fault. We have enough food for everyone.

True, but that's not the issue here or with human suffering in general. The issue is why does a Merciful God allow such suffering and not help?

The existence of suffering in a world created by an Omnipotent and and Omniscient God means that God is not just content for such suffering to take place - he purposely designed it to be so.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #965 - November 27, 2009, 09:03 AM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 26, 2009, 04:39 PM

5:91 (Asad) By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?'

Ya, ya see, its not a prohibition....its more like someone asking 'do you mind not smoking'

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superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #966 - November 27, 2009, 02:35 PM

"Speak for yourself... Its not my fault. Sudan is an oil producing nation by the way. And the government there does not seem to lack funds when it comes to buying attack helicopters and missiles from the Chinese and the Russians either."

I meant in a larger sense as in the human race. There is enough food on the planet and we should be able to overcome our squabbles and get that food into all the hungry bellies. If god was there to compensate for all our shortcomings then we would never improve ourselves.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #967 - November 27, 2009, 02:42 PM

"The existence of suffering in a world created by an Omnipotent and and Omniscient God means that God is not just content for such suffering to take place - he purposely designed it to be so."

Yes, I agree.

Either there is no God.

There is a creator but he/she/it/they are not omnipotent.

or suffering is an intended component of our existance.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #968 - November 27, 2009, 02:49 PM

Quote from: Submissive Bob on November 27, 2009, 02:42 PM
"The existence of suffering in a world created by an Omnipotent and and Omniscient God means that God is not just content for such suffering to take place - he purposely designed it to be so."

Yes, I agree.

Either there is no God.

There is a creator but he/she/it/they are not omnipotent.

or suffering is an intended component of our existance.

As far as the atheist's world view is concerned, suffering and natural disasters are simply part and parcel of our cooling planet. For the theist though, thedicies need to be though up in order to try and justify why suffering takes place. The theist would reply that all the suffering etc is needed for our own development. We are put to the test against each other, to see how we respond. It's also a manifestation of some of God's attributes.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #969 - November 27, 2009, 04:02 PM

have you considered the alternative. A world where no suffering occured. Jump out a window and you will float down safely, rob someone and they magically still have their money. Indeed morality would cease to have a meaning in so far as you could only do good to people even in doing bad things. Its such a dopey argument. Do you not get it Hassan? At least the atheist argument is coherent even if it is little more than "shit happens". The theist argument is not too different but merely that shit happens for a purpose.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #970 - November 27, 2009, 04:09 PM

Quote from: Manat
I don't think anyone will disagree that sunni and shia Islam consider alcohol as haram (using hadiths as well as quran b/c quran is mubeen and needs no explanation of course, except when it does). But the quran itself merely warns against it and advises another course.

They don't disagree because it's prohibited in the Qu'ran. A primary source they both share.

Hadith re-inforces the fact it's prohibited. And it goes further to give rulings regarding punishment for drunkness, prayer not being valid, selling and buying it etc etc

Quote from: Homer on November 27, 2009, 09:03 AM
Ya, ya see, its not a prohibition....its more like someone asking 'do you mind not smoking'

From the language of the verse, it means it's prohibited. You have to understand the context. You can not just read the verse, and come to a conclusion. Look at my previous posts, where it has all the verses on Alcohol, and the reasons for revelation. From that, you would see Alcohol has been prohibited in stages. With the final verses {5:90 - 5:91} prohibiting it. The Qu'ran contains commands. Either something is forbidden, or not. It doesn't have 'do you mind not..'. So what you said (its more like someone asking 'do you mind not smoking') doesn't make sense.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #971 - November 27, 2009, 04:20 PM

It does make sense in an important way. The sharia looks for a reason (ella) in deciding if to ban/diapprove/condone/approve anything. Based on the quran that 'reason' is the potential for harm. Good benefits are also cited and of course behavioural aspects of man in using alcohol and intoxicants. As a result the line could have been drawn in many places and indeed in the sharia men have produced a diversity of rulings. The four main schools (in general) regard it as forbidden in significant quantities and permitted only minor use in medical and other preparations. Some extremer groups ban even that and some more liberal interpretations allow moderate use as long as it doenst lead to the bad effects alluded to above (branches of the Hanafi school).
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #972 - November 27, 2009, 04:22 PM

I know...I'm just taking a piss, if you will.

Here is a fun question....Is smoking crack haram? Is caffeine haram?

As far as I know the quran does not forbid smoking crack...so who are we to make it illegal

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #973 - November 27, 2009, 04:24 PM

well thanks then for inadvertantly making a good point
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #974 - November 27, 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 27, 2009, 04:09 PM
The Qu'ran contains commands. Either something is forbidden, or not.

See, I find that funny, because then how do you address modern issues.
For instance, the quran does not prohibit slavery, so you could make the case that it is 'unislamic' to ban the buying and selling of slaves (so long as its done 'islamicly'). That is just one simple example, but I'm sure you could think of many others

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #975 - November 27, 2009, 04:29 PM

I think the quran addresses your intellect and asks you to consider the reasons.

Coffee is a mild drug true. Once banned in the uk. But I think we would all agree that along with red bull, a mild stimulant is not conflicting with the reasons one might give against hard drugs. Crack I might put on the avoid list, its highly addictive and fucks up to many people. But as you indicated the quran doesn't provide an incontrovertible ban it addresses the intellect and urges mankind to ponder the effects of alcohol abuse and make rules accordingly for the benefit of society
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #976 - November 27, 2009, 04:32 PM

Thats one possibility.

Another one being that it really doesnt make that much sense, and is the wimsicle ramblings of people from long long ago, who didnt really know what they were talking about

That's why I stopped bothering to try and make sense of it. I think Muhammed just didnt like wine, and its that simple. There are some hadiths to back that up.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #977 - November 27, 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote from: Homer on November 27, 2009, 04:28 PM

See, I find that funny, because then how do you address modern issues.
For instance, the quran does not prohibit slavery, so you could make the case that it is 'unislamic' to ban the buying and selling of slaves (so long as its done 'islamicly'). That is just one simple example, but I'm sure you could think of many others

I think you are right some scholars would hesitate to ban outright something that was permitted at the time of the prophet, even though the prophet made it clear it was distasteful. The early community had to tackle the issue around them and no-one denies the thrust of islamic guidance was to free slaves and effectively abolish it in that way.

Wikipedia has this to say on Muhammads view on slavery for example

"Muhammad encouraged manumission of slaves, even if one had to purchase them first. Traditional biographies of Muhammad give many examples where Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Abul Ala Maududi reports that Muhammad freed as many as 63 slaves.[3] Meer Ismail, a medieval historian, writes in Buloogh al Muram that his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.

Therefore some scholars have argued that the eventual ban on slavery was intended and therefore is the current postion
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #978 - November 27, 2009, 04:37 PM

@Homer

Quote
I know...I'm just taking a piss, if you will.

Here is a fun question....Is smoking crack haram? Is caffeine haram?

As far as I know the quran does not forbid smoking crack...so who are we to make it illegal

Sorry, I didn't sense your comment was sarcastic.

Doesn't crack fall under 'الْخَمْرِ' (Intoxicants)?

@Doubtfool

Quote
It does make sense in an important way. The sharia looks for a reason (ella) in deciding if to ban/diapprove/condone/approve anything. Based on the quran that 'reason' is the potential for harm. Good benefits are also cited and of course behavioural aspects of man in using alcohol and intoxicants. As a result the line could have been drawn in many places and indeed in the sharia men have produced a diversity of rulings. The four main schools (in general) regard it as forbidden in significant quantities and permitted only minor use in medical and other preparations. Some extremer groups ban even that and some more liberal interpretations allow moderate use as long as it doenst lead to the bad effects alluded to above (branches of the Hanafi school).

Show me how it makes sense. Give me examples of verses where it states 'do you mind not ...' or the equivalent of that.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #979 - November 27, 2009, 04:40 PM

Quote
no-one denies the thrust of islamic guidance was to free slaves and effectively abolish it in that way.

I do.

In fact, 'islamicly, it allows slavery to continue forever, so long as there are infidels to fight.
If the purpose was to 'do away with it eventually, dont you find it funny what a failure his plan was? (as the slave trade in the 'islamic world' existed long after much of the rest of the 'nonmuslim world' banned it.) .

Hummm, hope someone picks that thread up and runs with it, since I got to get somewhere.

@Ibn Saba, no...it would be a stimulant. 'intoxicate' is a very very vague word. You can get intoxicated from drinking too much water. Maybe one of our fine arabic speakers could clear that up...does the quran say 'intoxicates' are forbidden, or just 'wine'? [I actually used to know a turk who would drink wiskey, because he said only wine was haram]

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #980 - November 27, 2009, 04:41 PM

I wonder if the prophet ever smoked up to get inspiration for the Quran. I mean anybody writing a major work of fiction would eventually run into 'writers block' right? There must have been moments where he was like "fuck, I haven't had a revelation in weeks.. uhhh... hmmm..I really wanna fuck that coptic slave girl...I have an idea"

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #981 - November 27, 2009, 04:44 PM

not sure how you reach that conclusion perhaps you can explain later!
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #982 - November 27, 2009, 04:48 PM

How one earth does anyone claim that the "thrust" of islamic guidance is to abolish slavery? Only place that Islam looks down on slavery is if it involves muslims or slave that have converted. But as far as the kuffar goes the hadiths and Quran definitely don't have any "thrust" towards abolishing it. And as Homer mentioned, for a religion supposedly driven towards abolition how come the kuffar christians reached it way before us?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #983 - November 27, 2009, 04:49 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on November 27, 2009, 04:41 PM
I wonder if the prophet ever smoked up to get inspiration for the Quran. I mean anybody writing a major work of fiction would eventually run into 'writers block' right? There must have been moments where he was like "fuck, I haven't had a revelation in weeks.. uhhh... hmmm..I really wanna fuck that coptic slave girl...I have an idea"

I think a lot of it came at convenience more than anything. If you use the hadith as a guide, most verses seemed to come from people bugging him about something, and then a verse coming to answer, justify, or just relate to it.
An example would be about alcohol, since we are on the subject.

Quote
Hadith - Abu Dawood, Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab(r.a.)

When the prohibition of wine (was yet to be) declared, Umar(r.a.) said: O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. So the following verse of Surat al-Baqarah revealed; "They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: In them is great sin...." Umar(r.a.) was then called and it was recited to him. He said: O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. Then the following verse of Surat an-Nisa' was revealed: "O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged...." Thereafter the herald of the Apostle of Allah(sallallahu alaiyhi wasallam) would call when the (congregational) prayer was performed: Beware, one who is drunk should not come to prayer. Umar was again called and it was recited to him. He said: O Allah, give us a satisfactory explanation about wine. This verse was revealed: "Will ye not then abstain?" Umar said: We abstained.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #984 - November 27, 2009, 04:53 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on November 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
And as Homer mentioned, for a religion supposedly driven towards abolition how come the kuffar christians reached it way before us?

Just to be clear....christianity had little to nothing to do with that.....enlightenment and human maturity, had a lot more to do with it. Which is why secular humanistic enlightenment values trump all ancient desert god worship, when it comes to human progress, but we agree on the premise I'm sure.

I always liked this snippet from a essay by Mark Twain, shows a bit of insight to the modern view held by those who kling to the unmodern dogmas of old

Quote
The methods of the priest and the parson have been very curious, their history is very entertaining. In all the ages the Roman Church has owned slaves, bought and sold slaves, authorized and encouraged her children to trade in them. Long after some Christian peoples had freed their slaves the Church still held on to hers. If any could know, to absolute certainty, that all this was right, and according to God?s will and desire, surely it was she, since she was God?s specially appointed representative in the earth and sole authorized and infallible expounder of his Bible. There were the texts; there was no mistaking their meaning; she was right, she was doing in this thing what the Bible had mapped out for her to do. So unassailable was her position that in all the centuries she had no word to say against human slavery. Yet now at last, in our immediate day, we hear a Pope saying slave trading is wrong, and we see him sending an expedition to Africa to stop it. The texts remain: it is the practice that has changed. Why? Because the world has corrected the Bible. The Church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession - and take the credit of the correction. As she will presently do in this instance.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #985 - November 27, 2009, 04:55 PM

Quote from: Homer
@Ibn Saba, no...it would be a stimulant. 'intoxicate' is a very very vague word. You can get intoxicated from drinking too much water. Maybe one of our fine arabic speakers could clear that up...does the quran say 'intoxicates' are forbidden, or just 'wine'? [I actually used to know a turk who would drink wiskey, because he said only wine was haram

Good question. According to the notes I have saved concerning some verses of the Qu'ran:

Note - (Quran Ref: 5:90)

According to all the lexicographers, the word khamr (derived from the verb khamara, "he concealed" or "obscured") denotes every substance the use of which obscures the intellect, i.e., intoxicates. Hence, the prohibition of intoxicants laid down in this verse comprises not merely alcoholic drinks, but also drugs which have a similar effect. The only exception from this total prohibition arises in cases of "dire necessity" (in the strictest sense of these words), as stipulated in the last sentence of verse 3 of this surah: that is to say, in cases where illness or a bodily accident makes the administration of intoxicating drugs or of alcohol imperative and unavoidable.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #986 - November 27, 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote
Note 105 (Quran Ref: 5:90 )

According to all the lexicographers, the word khamr (derived from the verb khamara, "he concealed" or "obscured") denotes every substance the use of which obscures the intellect, i.e., intoxicates. Hence, the prohibition of intoxicants laid down in this verse comprises not merely alcoholic drinks,
Quote
but also drugs which have a similar effect. The only exception from this total prohibition arises in cases of "dire necessity"

(in the strictest sense of these words), as stipulated in the last sentence of verse 3 of this surah: that is to say, in cases where illness or a bodily accident makes the administration of intoxicating drugs or of alcohol imperative and unavoidable.

Ahhh, but this verse is only talking about eating food, therefor not directly relevant.
There is no quranic verse that speaks of being able to use 'intoxicates' for medical purposes. There are however, several hadiths, which state the opposite, such as:

Quote
Abu Dawood, narrated Tariq ibn Suwayd or Suwayd(r.a.) ibn Tariq(r.a.)

Wa'il said: Tariq ibn Suwayd or Suwayd ibn Tariq asked the Prophet(sallallahu alaiyhi wasallam) about wine, but he forbade it. He again asked him, but he forbade him. He said to him: Prophet of Allah, it is a medicine. The Prophet said: No it is a disease.

Umm Salamah(r.a.), the wife of the Prophet(sallallahu alaiyhi wasallam) reports that he once said: "Allah has not placed a cure for your diseases in things that He has forbidden for you.'' (Reported by Baihaqi; Ibn Hibban considers this hadith to be sound.Bukhari has also related it on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud.)

Hadith - Abu Dawood; Sahih Bukhari

Abu ad-Darda(r.a.) reported that the Prophet(sallallahu alaiyhi wasallam) said: "Allah has sent down both the malady and its remedy. For every disease He has created a cure. So seek medical treatment, but never with something the use of which Allah has prohibited.'

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #987 - November 27, 2009, 05:16 PM

Come over to the dark side, and just admit that muhammed and his guys didnt really understand stuff that well.

after all, like I said...many many things can be intoxicates (like I said before, you can get intoxicated from drinking too much water...Hyponatremia), and well.....they just didnt really know perfectly what they were talking about, because it wasnt god, but a bunch of guys sitting around over a thousand years ago making stuff up.

Using this very loose definition of 'intoxicate', lets talk caffeine.
Now...Is Chi haram? Why not?
Black tea has loads of caffeine. Researchers have found that long-term consumption of caffeine slowed hippocampus-dependent learning and impaired long-term memory. However, a different study showed that caffeine could impair short-term memory and increase the likelihood of the tip of the tongue phenomenon. In essence, caffeine consumption increases mental performance related to focused thought while it may decrease broad-range thinking abilities. Does this count as 'obscuring the intellect'?

Does this fit into your definition? I mean, after all it can be argued that it 'obscures the intellect', as you say.
Or that over use will cause severe harm to one's body.
In fact, An overdose of caffeine will result in a state of central nervous system over-stimulation called (nicely enough) caffeine intoxication. Which is actually not very different at all from smoking a lot of crack....It includes restlessness, nervousness, excitement, insomnia, flushing of the face, increased urination, gastrointestinal disturbance, muscle twitching, a rambling flow of thought and speech, irritability, irregular or rapid heart beat, and psychomotor agitation. In cases of much larger overdoses, mania, depression, lapses in judgment, disorientation, disinhibition, delusions, hallucinations, and psychosis may occur.
Pop a few No-Doze and slam a red bull chaser or two, and tell me if your 'intellect is obscured'

So...is caffine an intoxicate? After all, the Mormons think it is...
Man, dont even get me started on cough medicine

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #988 - November 27, 2009, 10:17 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on November 27, 2009, 07:21 AM
I shout Allahu Akbar after I finished each one.

Hamad Nak Wa Shakar Nak also.

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Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
Reply #989 - November 27, 2009, 10:54 PM

Quote from: doubtfool on November 27, 2009, 04:02 PM
have you considered the alternative. A world where no suffering occured. Jump out a window and you will float down safely, rob someone and they magically still have their money. Indeed morality would cease to have a meaning in so far as you could only do good to people even in doing bad things. Its such a dopey argument. Do you not get it Hassan? At least the atheist argument is coherent even if it is little more than "shit happens". The theist argument is not too different but merely that shit happens for a purpose.

Since when did 'morality' come from religion? Religion is simply a product of our concepts of what is good and bad. The theist simply tries to justify it with his own beliefs..

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