Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #30 - November 22, 2009, 04:12 PM

Hi DM1,
Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
Ok, when I talk about a self-sufficient/complete entity, it's within the context of an Abrahamic God. I'll try and put my reasoning as clearly as I can, I'm not a logician, so if I make mistakes then feel free to correct me.

A self-sufficient and complete entity can set no purpose to itself that fulfills a need or a desire.

Ah a self-sufficient and complete.
Makes more sense to just state the Abrahamic God is an entity that does not have needs or desires then to make the leap that he can not set purpose.

But is that the Abrahamic God? The Abrahamic god could have needs and desire. The idea is perhaps that, the needs and desires of the Abrahamic God seem petty.

Two questions:
Why is the Abrahamic god self-sufficient and complete?
Why a self-sufficient god can not set to himself purpose/desire?
Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
A desire implies that one is seeking something that one lacks.
A self-sufficient and complete entity lacks nothing.

But we already accept that the Abrahamic god gave us free will. Which places us outside his direct control. If he wishes us to do something, he can only desire it and plan for it.
Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
The Quran states that Allah created man and jinns so that we worship him, according to verse Q.51:56, that says, "I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me."

Awesome DM, you just answered Elijah's question to ex-Kim. Although I do not think Kim was talking about the koran, she was talking about what muslims told her why she should pray.
Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
Allah wants to be worshipped. Wants are things that are desired.

Yes, allah wants something petty.
Quote from: DM1 on November 21, 2009, 08:17 PM
Allah is self-sufficient and complete, thus he cannot set any purpose to itself that contradicts his self-sufficiency and completeness.

But here we have a contradiction, if Allah wants people to worship him, he can neither be self-sufficient, nor complete

If the Abrahamic God fits your definition of self-sufficient and complete, then yes, he contradict. But the Abrahamic god does not have to fit your description of him. Perhaps he is just complete precisely because he has 1 billion people to satisfy his narcissism. His self-sufficiency is exactly because we, are his pawns, and us as submitters and slaves, provide him with the narcissistic ammunition he requires.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #31 - November 22, 2009, 04:24 PM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on November 22, 2009, 03:52 PM
Because they cancel each other out.

Yes. That is why I said they were contradictory.

You can compare God and man can you?

Sometimes you like to see justice and sometimes you like to see mercy. They are just different facets of your personality. They don't cancel each other out.

Quote
God has a personality? God is supposed to be beyond such concepts.

That's why he is a theist god and not a deist god (according to theists)

Quote
Man is imperfect God is not.

God is perfection - He can't have contradictions.

These are the things God claims he is.

We can only judge on his claims and show the contradictions in his attributes.

Not it's not. We can only go by his claims. These claims are contradictory and Absurd.

Yes he claims these things for himself and in islamic theology it says that he has mercy and justice, but it's unlike ours. We only have some idea of it due to our limits.

Quote
Because he created us. He has a duty of care. If can't careless of things he creates then his just a monster.

Yes. Duty of Care. So Earthquakes, Tsnunamis, diseases, famine - he has failed us in his duty of care.

Agreed, in principal, yet the theist would say that existence on earth is not meant to be utopia. It has it's trials and tribulations. This is how we come to improve ourselves. Again, we are on trial not him.

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But his reason does not tally with his attributes.

No rest is upto God. He is the First Cause ;-)

Thus virtue and morality we learnt - we find the God guilty of being Contradictory and Absurd. In fact he is guilty of Being a Divine Tyrant, a Despot and a Sadist.

What!!!! you say he is beyond our comprehension? ;-)

See above. We find God guilty of being a divine despot :-)

The Creations put him to trial and found him Guilty!

Is that a triamph of human morality?

Yes. Telepathy.

Reason has it's limits?

That what theists say.

Scientific Method is the best we have.

That is enough to dismiss God to the pages of myths.

These points are good. You are now a fully fledged member of the Jedi council.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #32 - November 22, 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote from: IsLame on November 21, 2009, 04:56 PM
If Allah doesnt need us to believe, then why punish us with death for not believing? This leads me to believe that following him is compulsary.

what comes to mind is whatever we do it is for the good of our own soul
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #33 - November 22, 2009, 04:40 PM

Quote from: Hassan on November 22, 2009, 03:15 PM
OK, haven't read the whole thread, but just a quick comment. Omaar is correct in stating the position of Islamic theology, but of course that doesn't mean they are satisfactory answers to the questions posed.

One is the issue of God's sifaat (attributes) which are not the same as a human attributes. So you can say a man is Kareem (generous) but only God is Al-Kareem (THE Generous - implying an all-encompassing quality.)

God's punishment in Hell was because of other attributes (such as the one who takes revenge etc...)

But there is a fundamental contradiction between his attributes that on the one hand declare God to be all-merciful and others that allow for acts of extreme (and seemingly unnecessary) cruelty.

The sifaat are supposed to be higher, divine and all-encompassing qualities unlike limited human attributes - yet in reality they fall short of them.

The usual response I got from Sheikhs to this was "Allah is beyond human understanding" etc... but then how are we to judge these claims if not by human understanding?

i think omaar shows there is no necessary contradiction. the interaction of these attributes in particular human instances requires that any parent should understand that
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #34 - November 22, 2009, 05:44 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
Hmm... Here the muslim might say that he "wishes" us to have the experience of existence, even though it's contingent and not necessary. Are you not in awe of the universe and hence his capabilities? His knowing or not knowing makes no difference to his existence. Look at it from the other side. He created it for us, he sent guidance for us. Explained the choices including the consequences. He creates out of his will, because he can. He would still have those attributes and existence whether we existed or not. A muslim would say that he has given us the pleasure of existence and hence kufr is a sign of ingratitude. Show off is a negative trait. God is described by positive attributes.

They would have to substantiate this assertion with Quranic verses, otherwise it's just a speculation on their part.

But the question still remains, if we define Allah as self-sufficient/complete, and our existence makes no difference at all to him, and if we go by the Quran and assume that he does nothing without sufficient reason, then we have a contradiction here, we shouldn't exist.

Because the Quran says that he created us for the sole purpose of worshipping him, the desire to be worshipped cannot arise in a complete entity, otherwise he'd be lacking and incomplete. Either Allah is not self-sufficient and complete, then we can say he has desires, needs and wants, but then this would go against his description as laid out in the Quran.

Also, why would the creator of this vast mind boggling universe, be so interested in human affairs?, he seems to get hurt and angry over people who don't believe in him, how petty can he be?

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
What type of revelation would you be please with?

Well how about just showing himself to everyone?

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
Where is the convincing? The cosmological, teleological and ontological proofs are grounded in reason. Which part of those arguments do you not understand? If it was about convincing then he would have said "George Bush will invade Iraq in 2003", we have been given just enough to have faith or doubt. It's the stregnth of the faith which is at test.

A valid argument, isn't necessarily sound. The premises of these arguments are not proven, these arguments presupposes that the first cause is God. Even if we assume that these arguments are right, all it tells us is that there is an uncaused first cause, this however tells us nothing about the nature of this first cause.

The onus is on the theists to prove that this uncaused first cause is their version of God.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #35 - November 22, 2009, 05:49 PM

I'd be interested from any muslim or any theist even. But particularly from muslims, how you get from the position of a blank slate say, with just the cosmos as something objective, to the particular position you have taken in your respective faith. By that I mean Sunni, Shia or any other sect. I would like to know the steps taken right from the bottom with all the steps in between. Thanks
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #36 - November 22, 2009, 05:56 PM

DMI That is what beleif is you chose to believe in whatever you do. You have not basis for it ie to say so why doesnt God show himself to me is a pretty weak way of bolstering you belief wouldnt you say?
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #37 - November 22, 2009, 05:58 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 05:49 PM
I'd be interested from any muslim or any theist even. But particularly from muslims, how you get from the position of a blank slate say, with just the cosmos as something objective, to the particular position you have taken in your respective faith. By that I mean Sunni, Shia or any other sect. I would like to know the steps taken right from the bottom with all the steps in between. Thanks

thats a tall order but i guess this forum lends itslef to slow deliberation in a sense though threads seem to lose themselve aswell. I can certainly try
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #38 - November 22, 2009, 06:13 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 04:40 PM
i think omaar shows there is no necessary contradiction. the interaction of these attributes in particular human instances requires that any parent should understand that

Eternal torture serves no corrective purpose nor does it satisfy justice.

It makes no difference saying that apart from being The All-Merciful and All-Forgiving, God is also; "The Vengeful, The Abaser, The Enforcer etc..." as these do not mitigate the contradiction between saying he is All-Merciful and his act of torturing his creation for eternity (for not believing in something that God has left open to doubt.)

In what way is he the All-Merciful and All-Forgiving if these qualities are limited to those who believe in him - but denied those who have done no wrong, (and would at worst be guilty of nothing more than faulty reasoning.) ?

In this case he is not the All-Merciful or all Forgiving but should be called the Ever-so Slightly Merciful and The Very Partially Forgiving - to those who believe in him.

Even if these attributes were purely human ones they would fall far short of human behaviour. How does a parent punishing his/her child to correct them compare to God torturing people for eternity in any way?

But these attributes are supposed to be far above the human qualities - they are supposed to be all encompassing.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #39 - November 22, 2009, 06:24 PM

Sorry I took Omars comments to be concerning knowledge of God and why he created us. The questions concerning the nature of God, the existience of evil, lifes purpose etc

I see that as seperate from the question of what is heaven and hell. We can know much about the former. The latter will be as the Quran describes something we will never understand in our current form. An interesting but seperate discussion. I am more concerned with the why he created us questions personally.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #40 - November 22, 2009, 06:38 PM

Quote from: Baal on November 22, 2009, 04:12 PM
Hi DM1,Ah a self-sufficient and complete.
Makes more sense to just state the Abrahamic God is an entity that does not have needs or desires then to make the leap that he can not set purpose.

But is that the Abrahamic God? The Abrahamic god could have needs and desire. The idea is perhaps that, the needs and desires of the Abrahamic God seem petty.

That is my understanding of the Abrahamic God based on discussions with Muslims/Christians and reading Islamic literature.

The Abrahamic God could have desires and needs, but then they should stop saying he's self-sufficient and complete.

Quote from: Baal on November 22, 2009, 04:12 PM
Two questions:
Why is the Abrahamic god self-sufficient and complete?
Why a self-sufficient god can not set to himself purpose/desire?

For God to have a desire, would mean that he's lacking something, that would disqualify him from being complete. Only deficient entities like us have desires.

I guess, he could set himself purposes, but these purposes cannot be something that fulfills a need or a desire, otherwise he cannot be self-sufficient/complete.

Quote from: Baal on November 22, 2009, 04:12 PM
But we already accept that the Abrahamic god gave us free will. Which places us outside his direct control. If he wishes us to do something, he can only desire it and plan for it.

Then the whole free will/omniscience contradiction arises, you could say that God doesn't force us to make choices that he foreknows, but if he is not forcing us, then what is compelling us to make these choices that complies with God's foreknowledge?.

Is there a force beyond God's control that is unfolding events, such that we only make those choices that God foreknows?, this would mean that God is only someone who has read the script, and has no control over it, everything is predetermined and free will is only an illusion from our perspective.

Quote from: Baal on November 22, 2009, 04:12 PM
Yes, allah wants something petty.

If the Abrahamic God fits your definition of self-sufficient and complete, then yes, he contradict. But the Abrahamic god does not have to fit your description of him. Perhaps he is just complete precisely because he has 1 billion people to satisfy his narcissism. His self-sufficiency is exactly because we, are his pawns, and us as submitters and slaves, provide him with the narcissistic ammunition he requires.

True, in any case the Abrahamic God has all the qualities and flaws of man.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #41 - November 22, 2009, 06:44 PM

Re- God's "right" to be worshipped and the fact that he is not to be questioned about what he does - and has the right to create and demand his 'right' to be worshipped - that is of course all correct, but we as human beings presented with the possibility of such a God (since there is no evidence any of this is true,) have no other means to decide whether we find such a God believable or not - other than the powers of thought and reason, observation and sense of justice and morality etc... that we possess.

If anyone came to the conclusion that such a God sounds like a tyrant and a creation of 7th century man and rejected such a notion - he could of course still punish him, even though he may have rejected such a God as a result of more moral and noble ideals than the one who accepts submission to such a God.

In which case again, God would be punishing people for morality and integrity and simply using the very faculties he gave them - while rewarding those willing to submit to a God who appears unjust, arbitrary and cruel.

But Islamic theology does indeed often amount to "So what - Allah can do what the fuck he likes!" and I remember being told that by a certain well-respected intellectual sheikh who shall remain nameless, (though without the colourful language )
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #42 - November 22, 2009, 06:56 PM

Re: Hasan

Re- God's "right" to be worshipped - that is of course all correct

Is it? I think it sounds rather silly

In which case again, God would be punishing people for morality and integrity.

Well again that is a ridiculous statment. I am sorry I really cant see how you are arriving at this?
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #43 - November 22, 2009, 07:07 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 06:56 PM
In which case again, God would be punishing people for morality and integrity.

Well again that is a ridiculous statment. I am sorry I really cant see how you are arriving at this?

If God is going to punish people for rejecting the concept of a cruel and unjust God (which is how most Atheists/Agnostics/Deists see the God of the Abrahamic religions) then he would be punishing people who rejected him for using their reason and sense of justice and morality.

I myself swing between Agnostism and a sort of Deism/Pantheism. I believe that if there is a God then he must be better than the one described in the Qur'an and the Bible.

In other words I reject the Qur'anic/Biblical concept of God because I think more highly of God. If it turns out that I am wrong - and my reasoning was faulty or flawed in some way (that I was unaware of) then God would be punishing me for merely using the reason he gave me and thinking well of him.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #44 - November 22, 2009, 07:12 PM

And ironically Hassan, it would be because of your efforts to see god in a more positive way.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #45 - November 22, 2009, 07:16 PM

despite any percieved irony you are both looking at this in the wrong way. I dont think you would even find a fundamentalist believer who accepted a cruel and unjust God. Their literalistic interpretations my lead them into logical conundrums and I would agree with you in not believing in their God. Fortunately most serious muslim theologians have demonstrated considerably more maturity of argument. Surely on here we can move on and tackle the more serious understandings. Otherwise you can continue to speak for islam as you dont need me.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #46 - November 22, 2009, 07:20 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 07:16 PM
I dont think you would even find a fundamentalist believer who accepted a cruel and unjust God.

True, only they might not view certain actions as being unjust or cruel. Remember certain perceptions on morality change from culture to culture

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #47 - November 22, 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 07:16 PM
despite any percieved irony you are both looking at this in the wrong way. I dont think you would even find a fundamentalist believer who accepted a cruel and unjust God. Their literalistic interpretations my lead them into logical conundrums and I would agree with you in not believing in their God. Fortunately most serious muslim theologians have demonstrated considerably more maturity of argument. Surely on here we can move on and tackle the more serious understandings. Otherwise you can continue to speak for islam as you dont need me.

The problem is the central text of Islam - the Qur'an. The literal word of God.

For me there were issues that simply meant I could not believe it was the word of God, no matter what any scholar or intellectual said - and believe me I have read and heard a lot.

I should add that I am not against Islam and certainly not against Muslims - but I do criticise certain aspects of it.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #48 - November 22, 2009, 07:27 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 07:16 PM
despite any percieved irony you are both looking at this in the wrong way. I dont think you would even find a fundamentalist believer who accepted a cruel and unjust God. Their literalistic interpretations my lead them into logical conundrums and I would agree with you in not believing in their God. Fortunately most serious muslim theologians have demonstrated considerably more maturity of argument. Surely on here we can move on and tackle the more serious understandings. Otherwise you can continue to speak for islam as you dont need me.

Youre right - literalistic interpretations do lead to logical conundrums. Something an omnipotent creator should/would not make unless he was not aware some people would be lead astray through no fault of their own. That leads to the conclusion that is must be man-made. Your suggestion that you are 100% sure in Islam is therefore false.

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #49 - November 22, 2009, 07:48 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 06:24 PM
Sorry I took Omars comments to be concerning knowledge of God and why he created us. The questions concerning the nature of God, the existience of evil, lifes purpose etc

I see that as seperate from the question of what is heaven and hell. We can know much about the former. The latter will be as the Quran describes something we will never understand in our current form. An interesting but seperate discussion. I am more concerned with the why he created us questions personally.

I'm an atheist myself. But I'm familiar with the arguments that muslims who know something about aqeedah present. I am also aware that God showing himself would invalidate "faith", which is what God wants us to have.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #50 - November 22, 2009, 07:50 PM

Quote from: ras111 on November 22, 2009, 07:20 PM
True, only they might not view certain actions as being unjust or cruel. Remember certain perceptions on morality change from culture to culture

of course hence why the attibutes of god remain fixed (and Hasan note their absoluteness is in this sense of being perfect qualities which reflect in any particular human actions, not a silly absolute that says he can be one and therfore not the other). And of course the changing culture and times require a flexible understanding of what is right and wrong in each case. The absoluteness og God is a measure against which we make sense of the imperfect world.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #51 - November 22, 2009, 07:51 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 05:56 PM
DMI That is what beleif is you chose to believe in whatever you do. You have not basis for it ie to say so why doesnt God show himself to me is a pretty weak way of bolstering you belief wouldnt you say?

I would say here though, that your argument is from scripture. There is no reason why this isn't a legitimate demand, outside of the theist worldview.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #52 - November 22, 2009, 07:56 PM

Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 07:27 PM
Youre right - literalistic interpretations do lead to logical conundrums. Something an omnipotent creator should/would not make unless he was not aware some people would be lead astray through no fault of their own. That leads to the conclusion that is must be man-made. Your suggestion that you are 100% sure in Islam is therefore false.

Quad Erat Demonstrandum

oh my god that is so clever, except it requires me to agree with you that God wouldnt give literalists the ability to make literalist assumptions nor give people the ability deviate and misinterpret for any number of reasons. But why do you feel that should be so?
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #53 - November 22, 2009, 07:57 PM

I think it is something called free will which allows us to act like asses
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #54 - November 22, 2009, 07:59 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 06:56 PM
Re: Hasan

Re- God's "right" to be worshipped - that is of course all correct

Is it? I think it sounds rather silly

If I'm correct, according to islamic theology it is Allah's "Haq" to be worshipped.

Quote
In which case again, God would be punishing people for morality and integrity.

Well again that is a ridiculous statment. I am sorry I really cant see how you are arriving at this?

We are back to Euthyphro's dialogue. What makes something moral? Is it because God commands it from his will, or is the the act itself? This topic of morals and ethics demands a seperate thread I think. But lets stick to the existence of God and theology here.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #55 - November 22, 2009, 08:04 PM

Lightrays I would be interested in your views on Hell and eternal punishment of unbelievers - as this is at the heart of why I reject the Qur'an - would you like me to start a separate thread for this?
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #56 - November 22, 2009, 08:06 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 07:16 PM
despite any percieved irony you are both looking at this in the wrong way. I dont think you would even find a fundamentalist believer who accepted a cruel and unjust God. Their literalistic interpretations my lead them into logical conundrums and I would agree with you in not believing in their God. Fortunately most serious muslim theologians have demonstrated considerably more maturity of argument. Surely on here we can move on and tackle the more serious understandings. Otherwise you can continue to speak for islam as you dont need me.

I agree with you here. The classical theologians such as Tahawi, Mathuridi and Ashari have diligently worked out theology, there is no denial there. But remember, in western theology the burden of proof lies with the theist and not the atheist. In Islam the existence of God is taken as self evident and thus the atheist is the one who has to justify his non-belief. In which case the atheist would have to justify not only his non-belief in Allah, but also the many other deities of history.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #57 - November 22, 2009, 08:06 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 07:57 PM
I think it is something called free will which allows us to act like asses

Sorry, I dont understand?

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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #58 - November 22, 2009, 08:07 PM

thanks, maybe later i am not very computer savy and this is a bit overwhelming at the mo.
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Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
Reply #59 - November 22, 2009, 08:08 PM

Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 08:07 PM
thanks, maybe later i am not very computer savy and this is a bit overwhelming at the mo.

I assume that was a reply to me - OK, no problem - I know it can be really overwhelming when lots of ppl want to talk to you.
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