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 Topic: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)

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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #60 - November 22, 2009, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 08:07 PM
    thanks, maybe later i am not very computer savy and this is a bit overwhelming at the mo.

    I understand free-will, but I dont see how it negates the conclusion in my post?
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #61 - November 22, 2009, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 07:59 PM
    If I'm correct, according to islamic theology it is Allah's "Haq" to be worshipped.

    i dont deny that.  It is the way it was meant here (in the early comment) I was objecting to.  The quranic concept of haqq is there is nothing worthy of the status and indeed in a fuller sense nothing other than God (at all) so of course it is "right" as it would also be so "wrong" to negate it hence why kufr (properly understood) is a sin

  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #62 - November 22, 2009, 08:12 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 07:51 PM
    I would say here though, that your argument is from scripture. There is no reason why this isn't a legitimate demand, outside of the theist worldview.

    i think I see what you mean.  But why?  If someone restricts himself to a limited range of experential knowledge and as a result is unaware of certain phenomena or realities, is it acceptable for him to say because I won't turn around I deny there is anything behind me and moreover it proves there is nothing behind me Surely not?
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #63 - November 22, 2009, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 08:06 PM
    Sorry, I dont understand?


    If I'm correct and maybe lightrays or Hassan can elaborate. Allah has given us free will and he is pleased when we do good. However, when we sin or do bad, we capitulate our free will.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #64 - November 22, 2009, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 08:06 PM
    Sorry, I dont understand?


    i was referring to your assertion that God doesnt exist cos he let people misunderstand or misinterpret him>  i dont think that holds
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #65 - November 22, 2009, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 08:12 PM
    i think I see what you mean.  But why?  If someone restricts himself to a limited range of experential knowledge and as a result is unaware of certain phenomena or realities, is it acceptable for him to say because I won't turn around I deny there is anything behind me and moreover it proves there is nothing behind me Surely not?


    Please elaborate what you are saying here, so that I can respond correctly.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #66 - November 22, 2009, 08:18 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 08:15 PM
    i was referring to your assertion that God doesnt exist cos he let people misunderstand or misinterpret him>  i dont think that holds

    Regarding free- will
    "He whom God guideth is the guided" Quran 7:177  
    Regarding preventing us from believing him:
    "Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing" in Quran 2:7
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #67 - November 22, 2009, 08:27 PM
    NB: This is a separate point as free-will is unrelated to the suppositions that lead to the conclusion - but I would like to see how you interpret those quotes from the quran, or whether you see them as another contradiction in the Holy scriptures.

    In any case my argument  was that logical conundrums that exist (which you agreed) could lead a rational & logical thinker to think that the religion is man-made.  So why are you 100% again?
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #68 - November 22, 2009, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 08:18 PM
    Regarding free- will
    "He whom God guideth is the guided" Quran 7:177  
    Regarding preventing us from believing him:
    "Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing" in Quran 2:7



    I have to interject here Islame, as far as I understand, this verse is referring to those who having recieved the guidance (the Quran) reject it. The seal on the heart is the result of the rejection. But this is the view of one religion from the many that are out there. There is no reason why this should be an objective reality except to those who already believe and are muslims. To the outsider, the verse can be translated into "accept the blood of christ".
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #69 - November 22, 2009, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 08:18 PM
    Regarding free- will
    "He whom God guideth is the guided" Quran 7:177 
    Regarding preventing us from believing him:
    "Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing" in Quran 2:7

    the above verses don't negate free will they simply indicate that God is the source of both our righteousness and our error, raising of course the great paradox of free will and pre-destination.  Please dont ask me to answer that for you on day one here!  but suffice to say if you beleive in God, free will, his knowledge etc it doesnt lead to the conclusion you asserted so confidently.

  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #70 - November 22, 2009, 08:41 PM


    In any case my argument  was that logical conundrums that exist (which you agreed) could lead a rational & logical thinker to think that the religion is man-made.  So why are you 100% again?
    [/quote]

    because rationality and logic (lovely as they are) are not our highest faculties
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #71 - November 22, 2009, 08:44 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 08:41 PM
    because rationality and logic (lovely as they are) are not our highest faculties


    They are part of our reasoning faculties, which we all should share. Please elaborate on our higher faculty.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #72 - November 22, 2009, 09:02 PM
    They are the faculties that lead us to transplant pigs heart to replace human ones, allow us to see the universe from outerspace, allow us to walk on the moon, allow us to create medicines that might save your life one day.

    And you expect us to disregard these faculties, in favour of something that is untested and unproven?  Next time you are ill will you stick to higher spiritual faculties rather than our lower ones that have produced medicines/vaccines etc?  I will stick to the 'lower' ones as they are the only ones that have been proven to work time & time again - does that make me a bad person.  If that in turn makes me realise religion is man-made, does that mean I deserve to go to hell?
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #73 - November 22, 2009, 09:05 PM
    Hmmm the higher faculty,  well in Islam the word Dhikr connotes rememberence and this is reference to the spiritual knowledge we all possess (The breath of God).  Much of the task of the seeker of knowledge in this world is to obtain a state where the base desires of our material existence (pleasant as they may be) do not deviate the soul fom remembering that knowledge.  All epistimological knowledge needs to be weighed in the scale of this intuitive knowledge and is subservient to it not the other way around.  The quran refers to it as the furqan and God places it on a par with revealed revalation in the quran.  
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #74 - November 22, 2009, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 09:02 PM
    They are the faculties that lead us to transplant pigs heart to replace human ones, allow us to see the universe from outerspace, allow us to walk on the moon, allow us to create medicines that might save your life one day.

    And you expect us to disregard these faculties, in favour of something that is untested and unproven?  Next time you are ill will you stick to higher spiritual faculties rather than our lower ones that have produced medicines/vaccines etc?  I will stick to the 'lower' ones as they are the only ones that have been proven to work time & time again - does that make me a bad person.  If that in turn makes me realise religion is man-made, does that mean I deserve to go to hell?

    no it doesnt Islame.  It just means you are not very reflective.  I could possibly suggest a few books for you to read.  To comprehend these ideas and concepts is certainly not beyond you.  Man has grappled with them for millenia and you misunderstand me if you think I would turn to them to fix my plumbing for instance.  Everything has its purpose.

  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #75 - November 22, 2009, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 09:05 PM
    Hmmm the higher faculty,  well in Islam the word Dhikr connotes rememberence and this is reference to the spiritual knowledge we all possess (The breath of God).  Much of the task of the seeker of knowledge in this world is to obtain a state where the base desires of our material existence (pleasant as they may be) do not deviate the soul fom remembering that knowledge.  All epistimological knowledge needs to be weighed in the scale of this intuitive knowledge and is subservient to it not the other way around.  The quran refers to it as the furqan and God places it on a par with revealed revalation in the quran.  


    I take it you mean the subtle faculty in the eye of the "rooh". Am I right? But remember here, that this is subjective to the muslim and his "leap of faith". We have not even got to the point where we have shown or demonstrated that there is a coherent and objective proof for the existence of God. Let alone asserting that Islam is the path he wants us to take. The dhikr and spiritual development comes after these hurdles have crossed. Also remember Soren Kierkegaard spoke of this leap of faith and made a similar leap. In his case he made a leap to a lutheran branch of christianity. Was his leap ill founded?
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #76 - November 22, 2009, 09:15 PM
    How do you know all of this?  Because Islam told you?  You seem to be on a different page to me, and you are making a lot of assumptions - is Islam based on assumptions or something more solid?  I still cant understand how you are 100% sure, unless you are just saying that..  So all the polytheists & athists are wrong (and there number is greater than Muslims) but you are 100% right?  So what greater knowledge so you possess?

    Also please let me know your thoughts to this question at the end

    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 09:02 PM
    They are the faculties that lead us to transplant pigs heart to replace human ones, allow us to see the universe from outerspace, allow us to walk on the moon, allow us to create medicines that might save your life one day.

    And you expect us to disregard these faculties, in favour of something that is untested and unproven?  Next time you are ill will you stick to higher spiritual faculties rather than our lower ones that have produced medicines/vaccines etc?  I will stick to the 'lower' ones as they are the only ones that have been proven to work time & time again - does that make me a bad person.  If that in turn makes me realise religion is man-made, does that mean I deserve to go to hell?

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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #77 - November 22, 2009, 09:16 PM
    no of course his leap wasn't misguided there are many paths to gnosis and should we really be surprised to find at the end of the day they all lead to the same source.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #78 - November 22, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 08:28 PM
    I have to interject here Islame, as far as I understand, this verse is referring to those who having recieved the guidance (the Quran) reject it. The seal on the heart is the result of the rejection. But this is the view of one religion from the many that are out there. There is no reason why this should be an objective reality except to those who already believe and are muslims. To the outsider, the verse can be translated into "accept the blood of christ".


    Yeah, I suppose that's the meaning behind the verse. I have a note about this Ay'ah, which goes on to explain the meaning of it, more indepth, if you're interested, Islame, in learning more about it;

    Note 7 (Quran Ref: 2:7 )

    A reference to the natural law instituted by God, whereby a person who persistently adheres to false beliefs and refuses to listen to the voice of truth gradually loses the ability to perceive the truth, "so that finally, as it were, a seal is set upon his heart" (Raghib). Since it is God who has instituted all laws of nature -which, in their aggregate, are called sunnat Allah ("the way of God") -this "sealing" is attributed to Him: but it is obviously a consequence of man's free choice and not an act of "predestination". Similarly, the suffering which, in the life to come, is in store for those who during their life in this world have wilfully remained deaf and blind to the truth, is a natural consequence of their free choice -just as happiness in the life to come is the natural consequence of man's endeavour to attain to righteousness and inner illumination. It is in this sense . that the Qur'anic references to God's "reward" and "punishment" must be understood.(Quran Ref: 2:7 )
    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #79 - November 22, 2009, 09:23 PM
    dear Islame,  yes 100% sure,

    I don't say wrong or right to anyone or any belief, Islam has a beauty and comprehensiveness which I acknowledge but all faiths are only partial representations of the truth that is God.  A muslim scholar once remarked " If  muslims were to truly understand what Idol worship is they would realise that all religion is idol worship.  There is much truth in that.

    Also please let me know your thoughts to this question at the end

    and no it is not that which will make you a bad person.  

    [/quote]
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #80 - November 22, 2009, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 09:16 PM
    no of course his leap wasn't misguided there are many paths to gnosis and should we really be surprised to find at the end of the day they all lead to the same source.


    In that case, if his leap wasn't misguided, then one can adopt whatever faith he likes? His gnosis didn't lead to Allah, his gnosis led to accepting the blood of christ, which is not even close to islamic monotheism. So you are better off saying something along the lines of "I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong, other faiths could just be as valid". Unfortunately Islam does not afford you the luxury of even entertaining such a notion.

    Also please elaborate on these steps:-

    Quote
    I'd be interested from any muslim or any theist even. But particularly from muslims, how you get from the position of a blank slate say, with just the cosmos as something objective, to the particular position you have taken in your respective faith. By that I mean Sunni, Shia or any other sect. I would like to know the steps taken right from the bottom with all the steps in between. Thanks

  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #81 - November 22, 2009, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 08:28 PM
    I have to interject here Islame, as far as I understand, this verse is referring to those who having recieved the guidance (the Quran) reject it. The seal on the heart is the result of the rejection. But this is the view of one religion from the many that are out there. There is no reason why this should be an objective reality except to those who already believe and are muslims. To the outsider, the verse can be translated into "accept the blood of christ".

    But he has sealed it meaning they are unable to come back to it, even after further investigation and if they were to change their minds.  It proves that Allah is the one in control, not anyone else.
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #82 - November 22, 2009, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on November 22, 2009, 09:24 PM
    In that case, if his leap wasn't misguided, then one can adopt whatever faith he likes? His gnosis didn't lead to Allah, his gnosis led to accepting the blood of christ, which is not even close to islamic monotheism. So you are better off saying something along the lines of "I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong, other faiths could just be as valid". Unfortunately Islam does not afford you the luxury of even entertaining such a notion

    no i can simply be tolerant of other faiths.  ultimately I am responsible only for the journey of my own soul

  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #83 - November 22, 2009, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 22, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Yeah, I suppose that's the meaning behind the verse. I have a note about this Ay'ah, which goes on to explain the meaning of it, more indepth, if you're interested, Islame, in learning more about it;

    Note 7 (Quran Ref: 2:7 )

    A reference to the natural law instituted by God, whereby a person who persistently adheres to false beliefs and refuses to listen to the voice of truth gradually loses the ability to perceive the truth, "so that finally, as it were, a seal is set upon his heart" (Raghib). Since it is God who has instituted all laws of nature -which, in their aggregate, are called sunnat Allah ("the way of God") -this "sealing" is attributed to Him: but it is obviously a consequence of man's free choice and not an act of "predestination". Similarly, the suffering which, in the life to come, is in store for those who during their life in this world have wilfully remained deaf and blind to the truth, is a natural consequence of their free choice -just as happiness in the life to come is the natural consequence of man's endeavour to attain to righteousness and inner illumination. It is in this sense . that the Qur'anic references to God's "reward" and "punishment" must be understood.(Quran Ref: 2:7 )


    Quote from: Ibn Saba on November 22, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Yeah, I suppose that's the meaning behind the verse. I have a note about this Ay'ah, which goes on to explain the meaning of it, more indepth, if you're interested, Islame, in learning more about it;

    I thought so. The interpretation of that Ayah is loaded with assertions. It assumes that God exists, then builds on top of that.

    Note 7 (Quran Ref: 2:7 )

    A reference to the natural law instituted by God, whereby a person who persistently adheres to false beliefs and refuses to listen to the voice of truth gradually loses the ability to perceive the truth, "so that finally, as it were, a seal is set upon his heart" (Raghib). Since it is God who has instituted all laws of nature -which, in their aggregate, are called sunnat Allah ("the way of God") -this "sealing" is attributed to Him: but it is obviously a consequence of man's free choice and not an act of "predestination". Similarly, the suffering which, in the life to come, is in store for those who during their life in this world have wilfully remained deaf and blind to the truth, is a natural consequence of their free choice -just as happiness in the life to come is the natural consequence of man's endeavour to attain to righteousness and inner illumination. It is in this sense . that the Qur'anic references to God's "reward" and "punishment" must be understood.(Quran Ref: 2:7 )


  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #84 - November 22, 2009, 09:34 PM
    of course it assumes God exists, surely you cant criticise tafsir of the quran for assuming God exists.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #85 - November 22, 2009, 09:36 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 22, 2009, 09:26 PM
    But he has sealed it meaning they are unable to come back to it, even after further investigation and if they were to change their minds.  It proves that Allah is the one in control, not anyone else.


    stop proving things it just makes you look silly when we (even your fellows here) show you that your arguments are not sensible
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #86 - November 22, 2009, 09:37 PM
    Quote
    no i can simply be tolerant of other faiths.  ultimately I am responsible only for the journey of my own soul


    I am glad you have at least acknowledged that much. But here again, what makes you 100% sure that God exists and that Islam is true. This is BEFORE we get to dhikr and everything else that comes with it. Also remember this aspect of mysticism isn't something which has agreed upon "ijma" amongst everyone who calls themselves muslim. Here I include the sunni, shia, salafi and everyone else who makes this claim.
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #87 - November 22, 2009, 09:40 PM
    it is not acknowleding much to say that as muslims we tolerate lesser representations of the truth.  No religion will encompass the whole truth the quran tells us that.  I think I need to get on with a few other things tonight but will certainly return to the forum in future. 
  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #88 - November 22, 2009, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on November 22, 2009, 09:23 PM
    dear Islame,  yes 100% sure,

    I don't say wrong or right to anyone or any belief

    But by saying you are 100% sure, then you are saying polytheists are wrong.  Aren't you?

    Quote
    and no it is not that which will make you a bad person.  

    But these faculties have enabled me to see the truth i.e. Islam is false?
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  • Re: Islamic theology (split from Kim's intro)
     Reply #89 - November 22, 2009, 09:43 PM
    no Islame I am not saying that.  Please read back over the posts.  God Bless! 
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