What does the Hijab say about men?

Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #30 - November 24, 2009, 06:55 AM

Thats not modest..thats showing off (though it doesnt work on me) =p

21:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them

Hijab isnt mandatory, Quran only tells women to wear hijab as an advice instead of obligation.
21:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and they SHOULD wear their HEAD-COVERINGS over their bosoms

http://www.quran-islam.org
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #31 - November 24, 2009, 07:08 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 06:55 AM
(Clicky for piccy!)
Thats not modest..thats showing off (though it doesnt work on me) =p

21:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them

Hijab isnt mandatory, Quran only tells women to wear hijab as an advice instead of obligation.
21:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and they SHOULD wear their HEAD-COVERINGS over their bosoms

We are not talking about whether that was modest or showing off! We are talking about if they are allowed or not. In Islam or Islamic countries (at least in my home country in north Africa) men, especially on the beach, they can go like the model in my previous post, while most women are expected to swim with a blanket on top of her, as if they are supposed to and expected to drown! Wishful thinking, huh? Silly Man-made religions (I mean man with a penis, and not man as in mankind)!!

...
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #32 - November 24, 2009, 07:14 AM

Man made rules (Hadith) is exactly like that, Quran only says that both Men & Women must look modest. So, if we're at the beach, and men & women wear decent swimwear i call it as modest. While women swim with blanket on top of her is not Modest, it's crazy. Modesty depends on each culture & event.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #33 - November 24, 2009, 08:42 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 07:14 AM
Man made rules (Hadith) is exactly like that, Quran only says that both Men & Women must look modest. So, if we're at the beach, and men & women wear decent swimwear i call it as modest. While women swim with blanket on top of her is not Modest, it's crazy. Modesty depends on each culture & event.

What you just said makes lots of sense, but I am afraid this is not what is being taught in Muslim schools or on Muslim TV channels and by practicing Muslims.

...
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #34 - November 24, 2009, 08:56 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 07:14 AM
Man made rules (Hadith) is exactly like that, Quran only says that both Men & Women must look modest. So, if we're at the beach, and men & women wear decent swimwear i call it as modest. While women swim with blanket on top of her is not Modest, it's crazy. Modesty depends on each culture & event.

Ummm, I think you need to understand how Fiqh is constructed - Shariah is constructed from more than just the Qur'an; Hadith/Sunnah play a vital role in understanding the Qur'an and what Allah expects from Muslims.

Believe what you want to believe but don't try to make out that you some how have the 'true Islam'(tm) and everyone else is following 'imitation Islam'(tm).

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #35 - November 24, 2009, 09:06 AM

RIBS: No, it's not what being taught but i believe sooner or later some people can open their mind that practicing Islam is by practicing Quran itselfs and not taking Hadith in the same level as Quran (that if they learn history of hadith) but only as "reference made by men".
Kaiwai : Fiqh is another law made by men, sure the law is taken from Quran and Hadith.. and for me i just see hadith as stories inherited by 1 man's word of mouth for dozens and hundreds of years to another. Like any other references or stories there are some good stories/reference to take and there are that just too absurd.

Anyway i also swim, and i dress modestly when swimming. In my house complex swimming pool, there's a rule to dress in decent swimsuit, and in our neighborhood "decent swimsuit" is 1 simple piece of swimsuit. Whats not modest in our custom are bikini and dude's thong --> that aint modest, that to our custom is as crazy as a girl wearing blanket when swimming at the beach :p Im not really comfortable too if there're too much guys around so i swim at night (and the "atmosphere" is nicer =))

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #36 - November 24, 2009, 09:15 AM

That's nothing to do with modesty.

That's privacy.

You can't conflate the two.

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #37 - November 24, 2009, 09:23 AM

To me it's Modesty, cos it decides what's conform/not "Flashy"/not "weird"/not "taking too much attention" in the society.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #38 - November 24, 2009, 09:53 AM

Quote
To me it's Modesty, cos it decides what's conform/not "Flashy"/not "weird"/not "taking too much attention" in the society.

You can't just change the meaning of words to suit you.

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #39 - November 24, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 09:23 AM
To me it's Modesty, cos it decides what's conform/not "Flashy"/not "weird"/not "taking too much attention" in the society.

Gatty, could you not type with slashes so much please? it makes it hard to understand what you`re trying to say.

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #40 - November 24, 2009, 10:25 AM

Also, is the dress code because of modesty or public decency? Because if were talking about the laws of a secular society. odds are they dont care about you being modest.

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #41 - November 24, 2009, 11:17 AM

Angel54 : Okay, then i shouldve written "Flashy, Not weird, you know.. not taking so much attention"
Rubaiyat : sure, sure, of course, whether it's modesty, privacy, or public decency as long as it guards their فُرُوجَهُمْ (modesty? politeness? conformity?) for both men and women, sometimes i cant find an exact word translation in arabic dictionary and sorry for that confusion :p

24:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their فُرُوجَهُمْ (modesty, politeness, conformity ?): that will make for greater purity for them

And
24:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and they SHOULD wear their HEAD-COVERINGS over their bosoms

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Rubaiyat
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #42 - November 24, 2009, 11:28 AM

here is a definition of modesty.

Quote
freedom from vanity or conceit

How is a woman wearing a bikini on the beach is vain or conceited?

Changing the meaning of words to suit you is kind of conceited don't you think?

Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #43 - November 24, 2009, 11:31 AM

فُرُوجَهُمْ could mean modesty, conformity, politeness, etc. So, wearing bikini on the beach can be called as Vain/impolite/conceited depends on each culture and custom of the society.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #44 - November 24, 2009, 02:31 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 09:06 AM
Kaiwai : Fiqh is another law made by men, sure the law is taken from Quran and Hadith.. and for me i just see hadith as stories inherited by 1 man's word of mouth for dozens and hundreds of years to another. Like any other references or stories there are some good stories/reference to take and there are that just too absurd.

But they are still used to construct fiqh; fiqh isn't constructed by a lowly person sitting at home but by precedents that are traced back to the original work done by the four imams (in the case of Sunnism) and built upon, and thanks to the wonderful principle of Taqlid, no new ideas can come into circulating if they contradict a ruling made in the past. So you're perpetually suck in a situation where you can't move forward on any of the major social issues that plague society today - the net result? people leave Islam because it has no capacity of continual renewal as times change and circumstances evolve in a direction different to what it was like 1400 years ago.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #45 - November 24, 2009, 10:33 PM

Kaiwai : Of course, and any law made by human (no matter how good they are), they never be good enough & must have flaws.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #46 - November 24, 2009, 11:06 PM

Fiqh and Sharia are also man made.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #47 - November 24, 2009, 11:34 PM

Awais : Yup, exactly

http://www.quran-islam.org
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #48 - November 24, 2009, 11:35 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 10:33 PM
Kaiwai : Of course, and any law made by human (no matter how good they are), they never be good enough & must have flaws.

But you fail to address the issue of Taqlid and the fact that once a ruling has been made you can't establish a new one that contradicts it. That doctrine was created by you guys - not me.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #49 - November 24, 2009, 11:39 PM

Kaiwai : That's possible, like i said Fiqh and Syaria are human made law, just like tradition, of course it has flaws.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- Alecto
- Goddess of Unceasing Anger
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #50 - November 24, 2009, 11:39 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:31 AM
فُرُوجَهُمْ could mean modesty, conformity, politeness, etc. So, wearing bikini on the beach can be called as Vain/impolite/conceited depends on each culture and custom of the society.

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:17 AM
Angel54 : Okay, then i shouldve written "Flashy, Not weird, you know.. not taking so much attention"
Rubaiyat : sure, sure, of course, whether it's modesty, privacy, or public decency as long as it guards their فُرُوجَهُمْ (modesty? politeness? conformity?) for both men and women, sometimes i cant find an exact word translation in arabic dictionary and sorry for that confusion :p

24:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their فُرُوجَهُمْ (modesty, politeness, conformity ?): that will make for greater purity for them

And
24:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and they SHOULD wear their HEAD-COVERINGS over their bosoms

Modesty and decency are two different things. (Islamic) Modesty means you shouldnt be so vain as to show off your body. Decency means there`s other people around and no one else should have to look at your body. If your being immodest, people see you as slutty or vain maybe. If your being indecent people see as impolite. They`re different. And I don`t think the Quran suggest covering your head in 24 31. The veil is presented in that verse in such a way that it is IMPLIED that women are already wearing it, which would be correct. Jahiliyan women ore the veil as a sign of freedom. Slaves weren`t permitted to do so. So I think its saying if you already wear the veil then cover your breasts with it. It is not a suggestion to wear it. If God was telling women to wear it would've said , Tell believing women to wear the veil, or Tell believing women they may wear the veil for modesty.

"We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #51 - November 24, 2009, 11:46 PM

Okay, modesty and decency to you is 2 different things but in different language فُرُوجَهُمْ could mean modesty, decency, or conformity.

24:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and they SHOULD wear their HEAD-COVERINGS over their bosoms

or

24:31 And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and LET them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms

I still dont see it as an obligation to wear hijab, but rather a strong advice (should) and right (let) to wear it. Ofc you may interpret the verse with your own opinion, i read the verse "As Is" and my opinion's different than you.

http://www.quran-islam.org
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #52 - November 24, 2009, 11:52 PM

Quote from: gatty on November 24, 2009, 11:39 PM
Kaiwai : That's possible, like i said Fiqh and Syaria are human made law, just like tradition, of course it has flaws.

But you're assuming the fiqh is as malleable as you're claiming on this forum; events around the world given implementations of Shariah of varying levels shows that you maybe living in the 21st century but the scholars are still living in the 12th Century.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #53 - November 24, 2009, 11:56 PM

I've seen more 'modest' kafir women than these Hijabis. I once saw a hijabi wearing low rider jeans and her ass crack was hanging out. No joke!

The sexual nature of humans cannot be repressed. Repressing it just twists human sexuality and results in what we see with Muslim men in Muslim nations - sexually frustrated hounds and creeps who harrass and lust after women in the least classiest way imaginable.

If Allah was smart he's just tell *all* of us to be a bit modest instead of all that bullshit. But Allah is as smart as a pastoralist goat herder turned merchant turned prophet.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- Saif Rahman
- Ex-Muslim
- Je suis Haram
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #54 - November 25, 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on November 24, 2009, 11:56 PM
I've seen more 'modest' kafir women than these Hijabis. I once saw a hijabi wearing low rider jeans and her ass crack was hanging out. No joke!

My Book
My Blog
- gatty
- The Unseen are Real.
- Member
- offline
Re: What does the Hijab say about men?
Reply #55 - November 25, 2009, 12:06 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on November 24, 2009, 11:52 PM
But you're assuming the fiqh is as malleable as you're claiming on this forum; events around the world given implementations of Shariah of varying levels shows that you maybe living in the 21st century but the scholars are still living in the 12th Century.

Yup, and thats why some Syaria law which based on hadith (like stoning law for example, it doesnt exist in Quran, but only hadith) for me doesnt make sense in 21th century.

Kafirist : So did i, i think those hijabi should cover their "Ornaments" and private parts first before wearing Hijab that covered their bossom

http://www.quran-islam.org
Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »