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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam's arrested development.

 (Read 11800 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam's arrested development.
     OP - November 25, 2009, 04:43 PM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/25/islam-science-muslims-religion

    Quote
    Islam did ancient science brilliantly, but today Muslims lag behind. To catch up, they must demand the freedom to question

    The question: Can Islam be reconciled with science?


    Material resources are immaterial to the current sorry state of science in Islam. To do science, it is first necessary to accept the key premises underlying science ? causality and the absence of divine intervention in physical processes, and a belief in the existence of physical law. Without the scientific method you cannot have science because science is all about objective and rational thinking. Science demands a mindset that incessantly questions and challenges assumptions, not one that relies upon received wisdom. If this condition is not fulfilled, all the money and machines in the world make no difference.

    Can Islam accept the premises of science? There are some versions of the religion that can, and others that simply cannot.

    But before proceeding further, let me distinguish between ancient science ? which Muslims did brilliantly ? and modern science. They are not quite the same but are so often confused together that it is important to make the point. The ancient science of the Greeks, Chinese, Muslims, and Hindus was a rather limited affair that did not put any theological system under undue stress. Scholars observed, drew a few conclusions, and wrote a treatise that only a few could read. It was inconceivable at that time to imagine that the workings of the entire physical world could be understood from just a handful of basic principles. There was almost no link to technology and therefore no impact upon how people actually lived.

    Not so for modern science. This product of the European Enlightenment is now the essence of a universal human civilisation. Although it was fuelled by the discoveries of ancient science, including Muslim science, the Enlightenment had an impact that was totally different from the stellar works of individual ancient scholars.

    Modern science defines our world by constantly creating new technologies. It also claims to explain everything from the scale of the atom to the universe, and from times that range from the present to the very birth of the universe. It evokes resistance among traditionalists because it offers an explanation of how humans emerged from the depths of biological evolution to their present form. All this makes it hugely different from ancient science, which is what the Greeks and Muslims ? as well as Chinese and Hindus ? had done so splendidly in their respective times. So if a civilisation did great ancient science, this does not automatically mean that it is equally qualified for doing modern science.

    To return to the issue of the compatibility of science with Islam: at one level the for-and-against arguments resemble those for Christianity. Islam has had its share of pro-science reformers, such as the 19th century figure from India, Syed Ahmad Khan and the Iranian Jamaluddin Afghani, who argued that miracles specified in the Qur'an must be understood in broad allegorical terms rather than literally. Following the rationalist (Mutazillite) tradition of 9th century Islam, Muslim rationalists insisted on an interpretation that was in conformity with the observed truths of science. This meant doing away with cherished beliefs, also held by Christians, of the great flood and Adam's descent from heaven, etc. It was a risky proposition at that time but it was far safer than it is today when the mood has shifted away from empirical inquiry.

    On the other hand, fundamentalist versions of all religions, including Islam, are philosophically averse to the notion of material forces running the world. They insist that the divine hand constantly intervenes, and so individual wellbeing requires constant supplications to the powers "up above". This belief system ascribes earthquakes, as well as drought and floods, to divine wrath. On this basis, it would be fair to say that Saudi Islam, or the various Wahhabi-Salafi-Deobandi versions, reject material causality and hence the very basis of modern science.

    Shia Islam, on the other hand, while politically assertive and insurrectionist, is less inclined towards pre-modern beliefs. Ayatollah Khomeini was quite content to keep science and Islam in separate domains. He once remarked that there is no such thing as Islamic mathematics. Nor did he take a position against Darwinism. In fact, Iran is one of the rare Muslim countries where the theory of evolution is taught. Today it is a front-runner in stem-cell research ? something which President George Bush and his neo-conservative administration had sought to ban from the United States.

    But there is another side of the coin: Khomeini also developed the doctrine known as "guardianship of the clergy" (vilayat-e-faqih) which gives mullahs much wider powers than they had generally exercised in the past. Instead of being simple religious leaders, in post-revolutionary Iran they became political leaders as well. This echoed the broader Islamic fusion of the spiritual and the temporal, something that science is acutely uncomfortable with.

    To conclude: scientific progress in Muslim countries requires greater personal and intellectual freedom. Without this there can be no thinking, ideas, innovations, discoveries, or progress. The real challenge is not better equipment or faster internet connectivity. Instead, to move ahead in science, Muslims need freedom from dogmatic beliefs and a culture that questions rather than obeys.

  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #1 - November 25, 2009, 09:54 PM

    Great article. Sadly it's like blowing in a ruptured bag. Muslims who actually need to hear this will prefer to watch Zakir Naik or read their Qur'an, or shut their mind and accuse him of 'insulting Islam'.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #2 - November 25, 2009, 10:04 PM

    Who needs science and technology when you have Harun Yahya and Zakir Naik. Takbir!

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #3 - November 25, 2009, 11:15 PM

    Who needs science and technology when you have Harun Yahya and Zakir Naik. Takbir!


     Cheesy
    or just the Qur'an.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #4 - November 26, 2009, 02:13 AM

    The solution to the problem with the Muslim world is quite simple; make the following changes:

    * Muhammad and all prophets were human and as such had human frailties.

    * The Qur'an is made in time rather than outside it and eternal.

    * Qur'an is the enspired word of God and not literal - it is the word of one man's encounter with the divine.

    * The advice needs to be taken into context - not all directives are relevant given then change in circumstances.

    * Hadiths are unreliable - they should only be used for enhance understanding of the Qur'an and religious regulations.

    * Drop the penal code section of Shari'ah.

    Do those things and the Islamic world would zoom up to meet the rest of the world in terms of development.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #5 - November 26, 2009, 07:03 AM

    Quote
    * Drop the penal code section of Shari'ah.


    Better yet, drop Sharia all together.
    What happened to Christianity during the Enlightenment, needs to happen to Islam today.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #6 - November 26, 2009, 09:30 AM

    Better yet, drop Sharia all together.
    What happened to Christianity during the Enlightenment, needs to happen to Islam today.


    True, I guess what I was trying to say was to whack it back to how one prays - whether you have a beard, shave your pubes etc. is immaterial to ones piety.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #7 - November 26, 2009, 09:51 AM

    I also think that Muslims need to stop thinking of the Medieval Islamic science as something never before & even never after achieved by any other civilization, coz such wishful thinking leads nowhere.

    As this article pointed out:

    Quote
    But before proceeding further, let me distinguish between ancient science ? which Muslims did brilliantly ? and modern science. They are not quite the same but are so often confused together that it is important to make the point. The ancient science of the Greeks, Chinese, Muslims, and Hindus was a rather limited affair that did not put any theological system under undue stress. Scholars observed, drew a few conclusions, and wrote a treatise that only a few could read. It was inconceivable at that time to imagine that the workings of the entire physical world could be understood from just a handful of basic principles. There was almost no link to technology and therefore no impact upon how people actually lived.


    Sure Islamic lands produced great science for some years, but then the lands which were Islamized produced great science looong before Islami was started by Muhammad, for three millennia before that.

    Ancient Egypt, Mesopotemia, the Indian sub continent, Persia, even Turkey & Syria was inventing & innovating for millennia before Islam.

    I had started a topic about the pre Islamic achievements of Islamic societies.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5290.0

    Its quite natural that they would continue inventing for sometime after Islam. Also, many of these lands didn't become fully or overwhelmingly Islamized until the 16th century, the same time as Islamic innovations dried out!  Wink For eg, even in the 16th century, Iraq was 50% Christian.

    Muslims also benefited from the location Islamic lands occupied in the world, they controlled the Silk Route, had China on one side, Greaco Roman knowledge on the other, while they ruled over India, Iran, Iraq, Egypt etc.

    So they had earlier access to Chinese printing, took 0 & the decimal positioning system from India( Muslims have a widespread myth that they invented 0) & of course got the wealth of ancient Iranian, Mesopotemian, Egyptian knowledge.

    Backward Islamic regions like Saudi & Yemen remained backward after Islam, only they sent out jihadis to ravage other lands. In contrast, places like Scandinavia, Germany, France, even Britain developed long after Christianization.

    Thats not to say that Islam made no valuable contribution, course it did. But it was nothing extra ordinary, it didn't affect people's daily lives in a fundamental way, in the way that the post Enlightenment development of Europe did. Other civilizations too have comparable, if not superior achievements.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #8 - November 26, 2009, 10:12 AM

    Lets ask the great islamic scientists what they think. Al Razi, what do you have to say about all this?

    Well.....
    "The "sacred books" are only such a set of idle tales as any age could have and indeed did actually produce."

    The prophets-these billy goats with long beards, cannot claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority. These billy goats pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master." The miracles of the prophets are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies.

    You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!

    How can anyone think philosophically while listening to old wives' tales founded on contradictions, which obdurate ignorance, and dogmatism?
    Religion stifles truth and fosters enmity.

    Thank you Al Razi


    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #9 - November 26, 2009, 04:53 PM


      Islam and its Golden Age         By Farzad Rooh                                              

    Quote
    Why is it that most people believe that Islam had a great Golden Age while Europe was burning dreadfully in its Dark Age? This is a historical misconception which needs to be addressed. Allow me to give you an analogy before I make my point. There are two rotten apples in my analogy ?one of the apples is more rotten than the other one. Obviously, the less rotten apple looks more attractive when it comes to choosing one out of the two. This does not necessarily mean that the less rotten apple is not rotten.

    Now, take the above analogy and apply it to the so-called Golden Age Islamic civilization compared to the Dark Age Europe. Obviously, the Islamic civilization looks very pleasing when you compare it to the European Dark Ages. This does not necessarily mean that the Islamic civilization was a great civilization. This simply means that the Islamic civilization was not as rotten as its European Dark Age counterpart.


    Allow me to present a few true examples to illustrate my point regarding how Muslims of that era did so little to improve human life, even though, they controlled a large portion of the global power and wealth for almost a millennium.


    As you may know, the earliest known treatise on Algebra is credited to Diophantus of Alexandria in 3rd century A.D. However, it was a Muslim named Kharazmi from Persia, who for the first time used the Arabic language (the official language of the time) to write a book called Algebra. What did Muslims do with Algebra, anyway? The answer is that they just introduced the writing down of calculations in place of using the abacus. Surprised perhaps? Despite having the knowledge of Algebra for centuries and they did not achieve any significant accomplishments towards improving quality of life.


    On the other hand, when the West got hold of Algebra, it was Isaac Newton of England and Libnitz from Germany who invented and developed Calculus out of Algebra. With the newly invented Calculus and its mathematical outcomes, the secular West managed to send Man to the Moon; space crafts to distant planets, and space probes beyond our solar system. Over the centuries, it was the West that came up with Linear Algebra and its pattern in Graphs, Matrices, and Subspaces.


    It is true that Muslims managed to come up with Algorithm (Thanks to Kharazmi). This fact comes as no surprise to me. After all, the scientists of the Islamic civilization had access to many global resources yet what they accomplished over the millennia with Algorithm was literally ?NOTHING?. In contrast, when Algorithm was introduced to the West they invented electronics, digital computing, computers, robots, and the almighty Internet.


    As a whole, mathematics was a tool to keep Muslim scientists busy counting and writing numbers to replace the abacus, and writing mathematical formulas to please their Caliphs. In reality, what the secular West did with mathematics was to find the mysteries of our universe by inventing Quantum Mechanics, General Relativity, Special Relativity, cosmology and modern astronomy.


    Also, there is a big misconception that Muslims invented chemistry (Alchemy).

    Having their hands on chemistry, Muslims did not do much with it either. Nevertheless, in the West, chemistry was used to discover over 100 chemical elements which make up everything in this universe, including us. Furthermore, it was the West which came up with organic chemistry and the science of Pharmaceutical with its miraculous drugs and medications.

    I believe that the invention of glass was a hallmark in the history of mankind. Glass is thought to have been invented around 3000 BC during the Bronze Age. Modern glass originated in Alexandria during the Ptolemaic period in which slices of colored glass were used to create decorative patterns. Over time, Glassblowing was developed during the 1st century BC by the glassmakers of Syria. However, during the 15th century, in Venice, Italy the first clear glass called cristallo was invented and exported throughout the world. In 1675, glassmaker George Ravenscroft invented lead crystal glass by adding lead oxide to Venetian glass.

    It was 1902, when Irving W. Colburn patented the sheet glass drawing machine, making the mass production of glass for windows possible. In 1904, a patent for a "glass shaping machine" was granted to Michael Owen that paved the way to the mass production of bottles, jars, etc. Look around and you will see it?s all around us.

    What Muslims did during the Golden Age with glass was to make their holy mosques and shrines more decorative and beautiful to please their Caliphs and the nonexistent Allah. In this case, when the secular West got hold of glass, they invented the lens to improve the visually impaired. Thanks to Antony van Leeuwenhoek, the microscope was invented to see and explore the micro-universe. Consequently, the West invented microbiology (Thanks to Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch) and established modern medicine. At the same time, they used glass to invent telescope to explore the macro-universe (Thanks to Galileo Galilee) and to see that our universe is expanding (Thanks to Hubble).


    As a matter of fact, Muslims had their chance for a millennium to contribute many milestones to the world. Yet much of their legacy is in the form of great mosques and shrines. Since the great Renaissance, the secular West seized upon its chance to shape the world and in my opinion, they have done so.


    Within a couple of centuries, the West launched the industrial revolution with its great outcomes of our modern life. Just think about your life without electricity!

    With these facts in mind, without Western ingenuity and creativity the Islamic Golden Age would only be one step above the Dark Ages of Europe. Hardly surprising, when its followers were brought up to believe that ?paradise is under the shade of the sword?. What do you expect from a civilization that eulogize martyrdom and celebrate death with no respect for life on Earth? Moreover, what do you expect from a society whose spiritual leader (Khomeini) once said: ?Economy is for the donkey?? Or, what do you expect from a society that dresses up a toddler as suicide bomber and take pride in their own ignorance? These are the principles pursued by the so-called Golden Islamic civilization.


    Finally, I let you elaborate on other Western inventions and discoveries. You can start with textile, sewing and weaving machines. Try to imagine a world without these machines where the Ayatollahs, Imams, and mullahs have no turban to wrap around their heads. That would be a good start.

    Cheers!
    Farzad


    http://mwillett.org/atheism/islamicgoldenage.htm

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #10 - November 26, 2009, 05:11 PM

    Lets ask the great islamic scientists what they think. Al Razi, what do you have to say about all this?

    Well.....
    "The "sacred books" are only such a set of idle tales as any age could have and indeed did actually produce."

    The prophets-these billy goats with long beards, cannot claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority. These billy goats pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master." The miracles of the prophets are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies.

    You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!

    How can anyone think philosophically while listening to old wives' tales founded on contradictions, which obdurate ignorance, and dogmatism?
    Religion stifles truth and fosters enmity.

    Thank you Al Razi




    Razi was the shit! I wonder how on earth he didn't lose his head for saying stuff like that.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #11 - November 27, 2009, 03:52 AM

    Islam and its Golden Age         By Farzad Rooh                                              (Clicky for piccy!)

    http://mwillett.org/atheism/islamicgoldenage.htm


    This one is brilliant Paloma!  yes I might use it somewhere.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #12 - November 29, 2009, 02:26 AM

    Islam and its Golden Age         By Farzad Rooh                                              (Clicky for piccy!)

    http://mwillett.org/atheism/islamicgoldenage.htm


    That is a pretty stupid article. This guy sounds like an idiot.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #13 - November 29, 2009, 04:20 AM

    That is a pretty stupid article. This guy sounds like an idiot.


    I thought it was an extremely honest appraisal, an invented glorious past won't give Muslims a future. Egypt's real Golden Age was from 3000 B.C. to 100 B.C., Pakistan's in the Indus Valley when they had their own washrooms, Persia's in Cyrus' the Great time.

    Indeed, far from ushering in a Golden Age, Islam could well be blamed for causing these places' downfall as early as the 16th century.

    Given the bad climatic conditions of European lands like France, Britain, Germany, Scandinavia etc, its no wonder they were historically less developed than the lands Muslims took over.

    Also, as this author has rightly pointed out, Islamic Golden Age didn't change the standard of living of the ordinary person in any dramatic way.Women still would die in huge numbers in childbirth, loads of kids wouldn't reach their first birthday, people would die at 40, life would be harsh, uncomfortable & short.

    They did churn out a few good things, but so did very many other civilizations, including all the past civilizations of the lands they took over.

    An imaginary glorious past is no basis for a god future.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #14 - November 29, 2009, 04:32 AM

    This is a great article, on the same theme:

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/islam_myth.htm

    Quote
    The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary liberal mind. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of other civilizations beyond what the facts support. The noble savage myth is a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied about concerning the supposed "golden age" of Islamic civilization during what we know as the Middle Ages.

    The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam?s apologists to save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove, as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.

    Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that their goal is,

    "to recover for postmodernity that lost medieval Judeo-Islamic trading, social and cultural world, its high point pre-1492 Moorish Spain, which permitted and relished a plurality, a convivencia, of religions and cultures, Christian, Jewish and Moslem; which prized an historic internationality of space along with the valuing of particular cities; which was inclusive and cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan here meaning an ease with different cultures: still so rare and threatened a value in the new millennium as in centuries past."

    In other words, a fairy tale designed to create the illusion that multiculturalism has valid historical precedents that prove it can work.

    To be fair, the myth of the golden age of Islam does have a partially valid starting point: there were times in the past when Moslem societies attained higher levels of civilization and culture than they did at other times. There have been times, that is, when some Moslem lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. Baghdad under Harun ar-Rashid (his well-documented Christian-slaying and Jew-hating proclivities notwithstanding), or Cordova very briefly under Abd ar-Rahman in the tenth century, come to mind. These isolated episodes, neither long nor typical, are endlessly invoked by Islam?s Western apologists and admirers.

    This "golden" period in question largely coincides with the second dynasty of the Caliphate or Islamic Empire, that of the Abbasids, named after Muhammad?s uncle Abbas, who succeeded the Umayyads and ascended to the Caliphate in 750 AD. They moved the capital city to Baghdad, absorbed much of the Syrian and Persian culture as well as Persian methods of government, and ushered in the "golden age."

    This age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement. A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

    Three speculative thinkers, notably the three Persians al-Kindi, al-Farabi, and Avicenna, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with other ideas introduced through Islam. Greatly influenced by Baghdad?s Greek heritage in philosophy that survived the Arab invasion, and especially the writings of Aristotle, Farabi adopted the view ? utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint ? that reason is superior to revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of truth, and, like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to provide guidance to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning of the authority of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote more than 100 works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous City. But these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire belongs to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it, indeed opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see again and again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or political achievement, are usually the least Moslem.

    The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution, exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.

    On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averro?s exercised much influence on both Jewish and Christian thinkers with his interpretations of Aristotle. While mostly faithful to Aristotle?s method, he found the Aristotelian "prime mover" in Allah, the universal First Cause. His writings brought him into political disfavor and he was banished until shortly before his death, while many of his works in logic and metaphysics had been consigned to the flames. He left no school.

    From Spain the Arabic philosophic literature was translated into Hebrew and Latin, which contributed to the development of modern European philosophy. In Egypt around the same time, Moses Maimonides (a Jew) and Ibn Khaldun made their contribution. A Christian, Constantine "the African," a native of Carthage, translated medical works from Arabic into Latin, thus introducing Greek medicine to the West. His translations of Hippocrates and Galen first gave the West a view of Greek medicine as a whole.

    The "golden age" of Islamic art lasted from AD 750 to the mid-11th century, when ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated manuscripts, and woodwork flourished. Lustered glass became the greatest Islamic contribution to ceramics. Manuscript illumination became an important and greatly respected art, and miniature painting flourished in Iran. Calligraphy, an essential aspect of written Arabic, developed in manuscripts and architectural decoration.

    In the exact sciences the contribution of Al-Khwarzimi, mathematician and astronomer, was considerable. Like Euclid, he wrote mathematical books that collected and arranged the discoveries of earlier mathematicians. His "Book of Integration and Equation" is a compilation of rules for solving linear and quadratic equations, as well as problems of geometry and proportion. Its translation into Latin in the 12th century provided the link between the great Hindu mathematicians and European scholars. A corruption of the book?s title resulted in the word algebra; a corruption of the author?s own name resulted in the term algorithm.

    The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.

    As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India." The decimal numbers were thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as "Arabic" numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.


    Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam?s "golden age" were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little application, be it in technology or politics. At the present day, for almost a thousand years even speculation has stopped, and the bounds of what is considered orthodox Islam have frozen, except when they have even contracted, as in the case of Wahabism. Those who try to push the fundamentals of Moslem thought any further into the light of modernity frequently pay for it with their lives. The fundamentalists who ruled Afghanistan until recently and still rule in Iran hold up their supposed golden age as a model for their people and as a justification for their tyranny. Westerners should know better.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #15 - November 29, 2009, 11:44 AM

    Hm seems to be some ( alot ?) innacuracies there but I'm too lazy to point all of them. Instead I'll present you this interesting pdf on the decline of islamic civilisation : http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/ScienceandTechnology-WGCS.pdf

    wich is,shocking , referenced and imho balanced. But warning it's long and not sensationnalist, hence I guess boring.
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #16 - November 29, 2009, 11:52 AM

    Hm seems to be some ( alot ?) innacuracies there but I'm too lazy to point all of them. Instead I'll present you this interesting pdf on the decline of islamic civilisation : http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/economicHistory/GEHN/GEHNPDF/ScienceandTechnology-WGCS.pdf

    wich is,shocking , referenced and imho balanced. But warning it's long and not sensationnalist, hence I guess boring.


    Hi kodogue!

    More than boring, that article starts with a  False hadith.

    Yes, that hadith, "Seek knowledge...in China," attributed to Muhammad is false, read it in this Islamic link, no less.


    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/13637


    The article I posted, strives to present only true hadiths, not false ones.

    Hard to take an article if it starts with a false hadith, right.

    You can go ahead & search for the China hadith too.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #17 - November 29, 2009, 12:12 PM

    Well google is my friend and look what I found in the first link:

    http://www.sunnah.org/sources/hadith_utlub_ilm.htm

    You must be perfectly aware that in the realm of hadith science there is a certain amount of divergence, and from my experience the consensus abouth this hadith was that it was fair.

    Secondly you said that your article strived to present only true hadith , but correct me if I overlooked them, because I didnt saw any hadith in it, true or false.
  • Re: Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #18 - November 29, 2009, 12:13 PM

    Sorry it was meant to be a reponse to rasha in the corresponding topic.
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #19 - November 29, 2009, 12:26 PM

    Well google is my friend and look what I found in the first link:

    http://www.sunnah.org/sources/hadith_utlub_ilm.htm

    You must be perfectly aware that in the realm of hadith science there is a certain amount of divergence, and from my experience the consensus abouth this hadith was that it was fair.

    Secondly you said that your article strived to present only true hadith , but correct me if I overlooked them, because I didnt saw any hadith in it, true or false.


    Can you find me hadith book eg Bukhari, Volume & number?

    Otherwise its difficult to judge.

    The bukhari, Muslim & sunan abu Dawud are all available online.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #20 - November 29, 2009, 12:29 PM

    Well google is my friend and look what I found in the first link:

    http://www.sunnah.org/sources/hadith_utlub_ilm.htm

    You must be perfectly aware that in the realm of hadith science there is a certain amount of divergence, and from my experience the consensus abouth this hadith was that it was fair.

    Secondly you said that your article strived to present only true hadith , but correct me if I overlooked them, because I didnt saw any hadith in it, true or false.

    Hi kodogue,

    Your link only confirms my statement:

    Hadith HASAN MASHH?R - "fair, famous." Note: Applied to a hadith, the term mashh?r refers to a type of ahad narration that has five to nine narrators at each link of its chain and is therefore nearly mass-narrated (tawatur). Note that this is not an index of its authenticity as a mashh?r hadith may be either sah?h, hasan, or da`?f. Also, the label of mashh?r is sometimes given to merely famous narrations which are not nearly-mass-narrated.

    Quote
    Narrated from Anas by al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Imaan and al-Madkhal, Ibn `Abd al-Barr in Jami` Bayaan al-`Ilm, and al-Khatib through three chains at the opening of his al-Rihla fi Talab al-Hadith (p. 71-76 #1-3) where Shaykh Nur al-Din `Itr declares it weak (da`?f). Also narrated from Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Ibn Mas`ud, Jabir, and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, all through very weak chains. The hadith master al-Mizzi said it has so many chains that it deserves a grade of fair (hasan), as quoted by al-Sakhawi in al-Maqaasid al-Hasana. Al-`Iraqi in his Mughni `an Haml al-Asfar similarly stated that some scholars declared it sound (sah?h) for that reason, even if al-Hakim and al-Dhahabi correctly said no sound chain is known for it. Ibn `Abd al-Barr's "Salafi" editor Abu al-Ashbal al-Zuhayri declares the hadith hasan in Jami` Bayaan al-`Ilm (1:23ff.) but all the above fair gradings actually apply to the wording: "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim."

     

    So as I said, China part is extremely dubious, its "every Muslim."

    So it can be simply Islamic knowledge.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #21 - November 29, 2009, 12:45 PM

    Well I have not really time to do my research now, but the subject was Islam arrested development, not the veracity of this specific Hadith, and I think it is quite hard to justify your stance on not reading the article I provided just because of this matter (the hadith).

    Edit: " So it can be simply Islamic knowledge." that's just an extrapolation on your part.
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #22 - November 29, 2009, 12:52 PM

    Well I have not really time to do my research now, but the subject was Islam arrested development, not the veracity of this specific Hadith, and I think it is quite hard to justify your stance on not reading the article I provided just because of this matter (the hadith).

    Edit: " So it can be simply Islamic knowledge." that's just an extrapolation on your part.


    Well, knowledge is somewhat more vague, telling people to go to far off Mushrikeen developed China to learn things makes it seem that Islam values all sorts of knowledge, whereas simply knowledge doesn't add that much significance.

    Telling people to learn from idolatrous China would be more special, show a real value of all knowledge, even from sources & people with a civilization & worldview diametrically opposed to Islam.

    A reason for the arrested development was that Islamic minds shut themselves to new knowledge, hadiths like that China bit might help them to retain interest in learning from others.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #23 - November 29, 2009, 12:57 PM

    Well I have not really time to do my research now, but the subject was Islam arrested development, not the veracity of this specific Hadith, and I think it is quite hard to justify your stance on not reading the article I provided just because of this matter (the hadith).

    Edit: " So it can be simply Islamic knowledge." that's just an extrapolation on your part.


    What is defined as knowledge depends on your vantage point. A conservative Muslim might view that as strictly a matter of science or technology - when it comes to a Sufi it might include science, technology as well as new meditation techniques that can be Islamacised.

    Regarding Rashna, read the Hadith - it doesn't state that you literally go to China and get knowledge; China was only used to denote a far off place and emphasising that you shouldn't limit knowledge to a regional location. To take the hadith literally misses the point entirely.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #24 - November 29, 2009, 01:01 PM

    Regarding Rashna, read the Hadith - it doesn't state that you literally go to China and get knowledge; China was only used to denote a far off place and emphasising that you shouldn't limit knowledge to a regional location. To take the hadith literally misses the point entirely.


    The hadith probably doesn't mention China at all, its only"seek knoewledge." Both the link I gave & kodogue's link says that the China part is dubious.

    If China was not used, then there's no mention of as you said, "denote a far off place and emphasising that you shouldn't limit knowledge to a regional location", adding China gives the hadith those meanings.

    Hadith said simply knowledge. This from my link.

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/13637


    Quote
    With regard to the hadeeth mentioned, ?Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China, for seeking knowledge is a duty on every Muslim,? Shaykh al-Albaani said in Da?eef al-Jaami?: ?(It is) fabricated.? (no. 906). 

    The proven hadeeth is that which was narrated by Ibn Maajah from the hadeeth of Anas ibn Maalik, who said: ?The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.?? (220. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Ibn Maajah. What is meant by knowledge here is knowledge of sharee?ah (Islamic knowledge). Al-Thawri said: ?It is the knowledge for which no person has any excuse for not knowing.? And Allaah knows best.

     


    From kodogue's link.

    Quote
    but all the above fair gradings actually apply to the wording: "Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim."

     

    So I was just saying that China isn't mentioned in the hadith at all.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #25 - November 29, 2009, 02:37 PM

    People It's a very interesting discussion, and I don't want to evade it,  but I think we are getting off topic there.
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #26 - November 29, 2009, 03:23 PM

    People It's a very interesting discussion, and I don't want to evade it,  but I think we are getting off topic there.

    Well on topic kodoque, I've always wondered why the region which is known as Saudi & Yemen today didn't contribute anything to science & technology in the Golden Age. Sure, they sent out jihadis to overrun other nations, impose Islamic Governments, jizya taxes & other such stuff, but no science & technology contributions.

    Why the contributers were places like Persia, Mesopotemia, Egypt etc-places which had been contributing to science & technology for three & a half millennia pre Islam?

    Compare this with Christianized regions like France, Germany, Scandinavian nations, all of which contributed to science after Christianization, & were extremely backward before.

    So why didn't the Saudi & Yemeni regions, first places to be Islamized, contribute?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #27 - November 29, 2009, 04:29 PM

    Because those place did not have a tradition of scientifical inquiry, simple. Then you are asking me to explain european exceptionalism. You know this is a big deal. There are just too many factors.  You have for example the fact that black pest and various war provoked a great decrease in european population , thus increasing incentives to mechanize work. And many other stuff.

    Never hold simplistic view, world is always a lot more complex than "us vs them".
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #28 - November 29, 2009, 04:38 PM

    Because those place did not have a tradition of scientifical inquiry, simple. Then you are asking me to explain european exceptionalism.

    Precisely, you've hit the nail on the head there. Afro Islamic science happened in nations which were scientific pioneers for 4000 years & more before Islam. It was only after they were majority Islamized that they lost that ethic. They'd made many very valuable contributions long before Islam. Unlike Germany, France, Scandinavia etc.


    Europe isn't the only one, Japan, South Korea & now some other non Muslim societies too did very well.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Islam's arrested development.
     Reply #29 - November 29, 2009, 04:56 PM

    For you saudi arabia and yemen are the only true representant of the islamic world? I don't see how it deserves my point, you seem to be confounding me with some one who thinks that all of human knowledge come from the islamic world. I merely stated that Islam was a framework from wich already existing ideas and culture would mix together. And again you seem to imply that absence of islam was the only factor in the resurgence of europe.

    As for Japan and sou the korea, you will agree with me if I say that we need further analysis before declaring that those country were succesful because they were "preserved" from islam.
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