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 Topic: wow is that luck?

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • wow is that luck?
     OP - December 02, 2009, 04:03 AM
    look at  this answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091008215012AA7yxs3 the Best Answer his speech is really accurate about the big bang theory.
    Bazinga!
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #1 - December 02, 2009, 07:10 AM
    Hello Zizo and welcome to the forums....  Afro

    Yes it is amazing, huh?

    That verse (Sura 21, verse 30) has been one of my most impressive verses in the whole of the Quran...

    Here it is in Arabic:

    أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ ﴿٣٠﴾

    and Translated:

    Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe? (30)

    If I was still a Muslim, I would have used it as evidence that Big Bang was mentioned in the Quran, and also Evolution as the verse clearly says life began from water.

    Whether it was pure wild educated guess or luck or whether it was copied from somewhere from previous scriptures or writings of ancient Egyptians or Hindus remains a big question!
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #2 - December 02, 2009, 09:01 AM
    "وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ"

    "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We will continue to expand it."

    Holy quran 51:47

     Thinking hard
    Bazinga!
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #3 - December 02, 2009, 12:20 PM
    Of course it isn't luck because these verses are not scientifically accurate at all. And well done for choosing the one translation of 51:47 that says "we will continue to expand it" instead of choosing one of the many many translations that says that the universe is very big, just so that you can prove your point.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #4 - December 02, 2009, 12:56 PM
    Well that's the only translation i saw, can you list the others?
    Bazinga!
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #5 - December 02, 2009, 01:10 PM
    Can I ask, did you see that translation on a site talking about the scientific miracles of the Qur'an?

    Anyway, here are some more translations.

    Quote
    YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
    PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
    SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.


    None of these translations say the universe is expanding, they just say the universe is very big.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #6 - December 02, 2009, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: zizo on December 02, 2009, 09:01 AM
    "وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ"


    the more accurate translation would be mine (RIBS translation) as I am not convinced they were translated literaly. Here is my translation from Arabic:

    And the sky we build by hand, and we will widen it (i.e make it wider).

    Whatever that was!
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #7 - December 02, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: zizo on December 02, 2009, 09:01 AM
    ...,We will continue to expand it."

    It is true that our Universe is currently probably expanding, however there is no definite proof that this always was the case or that it will go on expanding forever, hence the ultimate fate of the Universe is (for now) a matter of speculation.
    If you want to know more get yourself a copy of A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking. Get the illustrated version, much easier to read.



    I also have a request if you don't mind. If you want to make a good case for scientific miracles that Quran allegedly contains then find me proof of Fermat's Last Theorem in the Quran. That would be really impressive.

    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 07:10 AM
    ... We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

    This could actually mean anything. Taken at a face value this actually is totaly innacurate. Organisms that conquered land actually did come from the oceans but that is pretty much it. There is a hell of a lot more to a living organism then just water.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #8 - December 02, 2009, 01:31 PM
    And Aristotle said that every living thing was made of water. Is that a miracle?
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #9 - December 02, 2009, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: zizo on December 02, 2009, 09:01 AM
    "وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ"

    "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We will continue to expand it."

    Holy quran 51:47

     Thinking hard

    Here is a more accurate word-for-word translation without interpretation:

    "And the sky we built it with hands and we are expanders"
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #10 - December 02, 2009, 01:47 PM
    So if i find a living thing that does not contain water, does that mean the verse is wrong? Will u stop believing in the sanctity of the text Zizo?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #11 - December 02, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 01:24 PM
    the more accurate translation would be mine (RIBS translation) as I am not convinced they were translated literaly. Here is my translation from Arabic:

    And the sky we build by hand, and we will widen it (i.e make it wider).

    Could you also give us your translation for: "...and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?"?
    Thanks!

    And Baal could you also give a more accurate translation of the above (if you don't mind)? Thanks!
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #12 - December 02, 2009, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 01:24 PM
    the more accurate translation would be mine (RIBS translation) as I am not convinced they were translated literaly. Here is my translation from Arabic:

    And the sky we build by hand, and we will widen it (i.e make it wider).

    Whatever that was!

    In the word to word translation, there is no 'it' at the end. It just says "and we are expanders", it does not state expanders of what.

    And the sky we build 'it' by hand, and we are expanders.

    Ribs, there is a letter right before expanders: Lamuassi-oon. I can not translate this letter. help?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #13 - December 02, 2009, 02:50 PM
    21:30

    http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=Quran&func=goto&gotoparam=21%3A30&at[]=999&at[]=50&at[]=3&at[]=6&at[]=1&at[]=5&at[]=10&at[]=11&at[]=13&at[]=12&at[]=14

    ...and we made from water every thing alive 'afala' they believe.

    afala is a bit weird and every one is translating different but all translating to the same meaning. Personally I think it is from a local slang.

    a --> ??
    fa --> so
    la --> not
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #14 - December 02, 2009, 04:14 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 07:10 AM
    Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up,


    Hum this is the Yusuf Ali Translation:

    Quote
    30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?


    Heaven and Earth being joined together is an ancient belief. So there is nothing remarkabel it.


    Quote
    We have made of water everything living


    Again it's ancient belief. Nothing remarkable.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #15 - December 02, 2009, 05:15 PM
    The verb used is not 'closed up' per se. It is more like the verb used to describe the opposite of a 'split cloth'. Two pieces of cloth that are still attached to each other. Before they were split.

    As for creating things from water, it is as impressive, and as wrong unfortunately, as the verse were everything is created in pairs.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #16 - December 02, 2009, 05:33 PM
    Quote
    The verb used is not 'closed up' per se. It is more like the verb used to describe the opposite of a 'split cloth'. Two pieces of cloth that are still attached to each other. Before they were split.


    So Yusuf Ali's is more accurate isn't it?

    Quote
    As for creating things from water, it is as impressive, and as wrong unfortunately, as the verse were everything is created in pairs.


    People living in desert or where waters is parse - life coming out of water is easy to imagine. It does not need a genius :-)
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #17 - December 02, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: Baal on December 02, 2009, 02:37 PM
    In the word to word translation, there is no 'it' at the end. It just says "and we are expanders", it does not state expanders of what.

    And the sky we build 'it' by hand, and we are expanders.

    Ribs, there is a letter right before expanders: Lamuassi-oon. I can not translate this letter. help?



    I think the leter "la" in the word "LA-muassioon" could mean "will" in the sense, we will expand it.
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #18 - December 02, 2009, 08:01 PM
    To the arabic speakers: on the whole, who is the best english translator of the Quran - Pickthal, Shakir or Yusif Ali?

    I hear its Pickthal, but would be interested to hear your opinions too..
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  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #19 - December 02, 2009, 10:01 PM
    I never read translations. Only here there few verses from the forum. So I can not say which one is better...
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #20 - December 05, 2009, 12:34 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I think the leter "la" in the word "LA-muassioon" could mean "will" in the sense, we will expand it.

    Nope. can not think of any rule or example.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #21 - December 05, 2009, 02:17 PM
    Hello everyone,

    Quote from: IsLame on December 02, 2009, 08:01 PM
    To the arabic speakers: on the whole, who is the best english translator of the Quran - Pickthal, Shakir or Yusif Ali?

    With Arabic being my native language, and from what I have been exposed to, Pickthal is most dealt with here.
    -------------------

    51:47
     وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
    Lamuassi-oon
    The additional letter here "Laam" ( according to "earab", a branch of Arabic language studies ) is a harf-tawkeed --> affirmation-letter.

    The word َمُوسِعُونَ is tricky:
    it comes from the root و س ع
    the only difference that can be made in meaning is by "Tashkeel"
    وَسَّعّ : to extent, to widen, to enlarge
    أَوْسَعَ : to give generously, to grant willingly
    and a word widely used in Arabic: بِوِسْعِيْ : I am able to, I am willing to.

    from what I see, Quran doesn't employ the first use of the root ( as no "shaddah" is seen, and it would have been used like this لَمُوَسِّعُوْنْ ).

    P.S.
    some Quran studiers insist on the use of the word as in "and we built the sky by hand, and we will expand it", and there is no straightforward way of refuting this, since the Arabic Language is very "rubberlike" and certain phrases can be interpreted in various ways ( and advantage Islam uses from my point of view ).
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #22 - December 05, 2009, 02:25 PM
    Quote from: Baal on December 05, 2009, 12:34 PM
    Nope. can not think of any rule or example.


    انا لصابرون على كل ما بنا من ضنك
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #23 - December 05, 2009, 02:43 PM
    21:30
    أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

    This is derived from older scriptures, including Judaism Texts, and the Babylonian creation myth Enuma Elis.
    They all mention the splitting of two layers of water and water being the origin of every living thing.

    An interesting thing to point out in the previous verse is the word فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا
    It's combined with a dual pronoun; and the word فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا is translated into "we split them" and this cannot be a reference to the Big Bang -or the singularity- in any way.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #24 - December 06, 2009, 08:44 AM
    Quote from: iThink
    This is derived from older scriptures, including Judaism Texts, and the Babylonian creation myth Enuma Elis.
    They all mention the splitting of two layers of water and water being the origin of every living thing.


    this is nice, can you pls point me to a reference.
    ...
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #25 - December 06, 2009, 08:52 AM
    Whoa, that sacred-texts site is fucking sweet! Thanks iThinks!!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #26 - December 06, 2009, 10:40 AM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 06:47 PM
    I think the leter "la" in the word "LA-muassioon" could mean "will" in the sense, we will expand it.

    I considered it, but i have never seen any example or rule of La being used for the future tense. As it stands, it seems more for grandiosity, an addition to the  the royal we preceding it.

    It can not be translated to the future tense: "we will expand it". But an interpretation could be that allah, being an expander, the expansion never stops.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #27 - December 07, 2009, 12:02 AM
    Hello RIBS,
    this is a reference to the Bible, Genesis.  Notice Verses 6 to 9, not only it refers to splitting the two layers of water; it also indicates them being "heaven" and "earth" as Quran stated.
    21:30
    أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

    And here's the text to Enuma Elish - Babylonian Epic of Creation / First Tablet. The first few lines also speak of water being the origin of everything.

    I just wanna add, I don't see how some are so concerned with linking the Quran to the Big Bang, does the Big Bang really go together with the creation according to Quran and Sunnah ? does Quran 2:29 :
    - creating a separate part of the universe at first ( earth ), then creating heavens really go with the cosmology of the Big Bang ?

    Cheers.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #28 - December 07, 2009, 11:04 AM
    There is no Big Bang in the Quran.

    If Big Bang is disproven tomorrow then you will find Quranic Translators saying - that too has been forseen in the Quran.

     
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: wow is that luck?
     Reply #29 - December 07, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 02, 2009, 07:10 AM
    Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe? (30)

    If I was still a Muslim, I would have used it as evidence that Big Bang was mentioned in the Quran, and also Evolution as the verse clearly says life began from water.

    Whether it was pure wild educated guess or luck or whether it was copied from somewhere from previous scriptures or writings of ancient Egyptians or Hindus remains a big question!


    Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them;
    This is a stolen myth, another culture before Islam believed in the heavens and earth splitting up too (I cant remember who). It doesn't matter though as this verse makes no sense. The heavens and earth were never split up, they formed after they were split up.

    We have made of water everything living
    This was already written about by the Greeks.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
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