Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #180 - September 14, 2009, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Hassan on September 12, 2009, 12:15 PM
Hi DH,

I'm not going to get into this thread again, but will just say that in all the years I was a devout and practising Muslims I always held moderate, peaceful and non-violent view of islam - as did many of the Muslims around me.

It depends what you mean by "moderate". How "moderate" exactly is someone who willingly works in a school that enforces sharia on its female students in the form of Muslim hijab? And how "moderate" is a Muslim father who forces his young daughters to school dressed thus? I see no reason to think that, given the chance, he wouldn't force all women everywhere to dress likewise. Certainly, it is difficult to see him do anything effective to oppose those who openly proclaim such as their ultimate goal. Furthermore, A grown woman who CHOOSES to dress Islamically where she is not having it forced on her by the state or her family etc is surely displaying strong pro-sharia tendencies. So can someone please list the key defining features of a "moderate" Muslim so they can be ID'd?

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I did eventually come to believe many of the peaceful interpretations were wrong and intellectually dishonest, the deeper I looked into them. But that doesn't mean that the very many peaceful and moderate Muslims are dishonest. They genuinely believe in their peaceful, metaphorical and moderate interpretations.

And, as I have said, where this is the case they faciliate the Islamization and shariaization of the host society, particularly when they are - like YOU - actively recruiting native non-Muslims to their Koranically unjustiable flimflam. And what happens when someone more knowledgable convinces these "moderate" Muslims and those they have converted of the fallacy of their beliefs and the terrible punishment promised by "Allah" for wilfully continuing to follow them?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #181 - September 14, 2009, 12:52 PM

Quote from: Hassan on September 14, 2009, 12:30 PM
Better than living in a world run by people like you.

And what are "people like me" exactly?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #182 - September 14, 2009, 01:05 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 14, 2009, 12:24 PM
As long as they aren't contravening any of the local laws there are no grounds for coming down on them, same as anyone else.

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Oh and by the way, you're initial question was "are you OK with moderate Muslims etc". You have just changed OK to happy.

My mistake. I'll give you that. Read "happy" as "OK".

So you're OK with the creeping Izlamization of western society. Just as long as people know where your site stands. And are you also OK with those passages from the Koran demonizing and vilifying "Kafirs" (ie most of that book) being preached from the pulpits of those mosques?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #183 - September 14, 2009, 01:12 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
Now isn't that typical. I offer the dude a chance to actually do something positive and he runs away. Go figure.

You tiresome bint...I didn't "run away". I'll have a look when I have a spare moment. At the moment, in between other things, I am mainly interested in the matter we have been debating. As you have raised the issue, why should we worry about this guy being deported to Afghanistan? The vast majority of Afghans are moderate, peace-loving Muslims who wouldn't touch a hair on his head aren't they?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #184 - September 14, 2009, 01:13 PM

Quote from: DH on September 14, 2009, 12:52 PM
And what are "people like me" exactly?

Narrow-minded bigots with a deep and irrational hatred towards a huge slice of the human race and wants them prevented from sharing the rights and freedoms others have and kicked out of "your" country.

Who will be the target of your hatred after Muslims are all gone?

Anyone who doesn't share your politics?

Your neighbour for allowing his dog to piss on your neatly cut lawn?
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #185 - September 14, 2009, 01:20 PM

Quote from: DH on September 14, 2009, 01:05 PM
My mistake. I'll give you that. Read "happy" as "OK".

So you're OK with the creeping Izlamization of western society. Just as long as people know where your site stands. And are you also OK with those passages from the Koran demonizing and vilifying "Kafirs" (ie most of that book) being preached from the pulpits of those mosques?

Well as my presence here might indicate I sure am ok with the creeping murtadisation of Islam in western democracies. You may want to think about that for a second or two.

Quote from: DH on September 14, 2009, 01:12 PM
You tiresome bint...I didn't "run away". I'll have a look when I have a spare moment. At the moment, in between other things, I am mainly interested in the matter we have been debating. As you have raised the issue, why should we worry about this guy being deported to Afghanistan? The vast majority of Afghans are moderate, peace-loving Muslims who wouldn't touch a hair on his head aren't they?

Well all smartassery aside I'm sure you know Afghanistan has the sharia penalty for apostasy in its laws. If you didn't know that you do now.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #186 - September 14, 2009, 03:00 PM

Quote from: DH on September 14, 2009, 12:52 PM
And what are "people like me" exactly?

Generally known as jumped up jerks.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #187 - September 15, 2009, 12:51 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 14, 2009, 01:20 PM
Well all smartassery aside I'm sure you know Afghanistan has the sharia penalty for apostasy in its laws.

So how did a country in which - as I am sure you would assert - the "vast majority of Muslims" are "moderates" end up having in its laws the death penalty for apostasy from Islam?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #188 - September 15, 2009, 12:59 PM

In case you haven't noticed, Afghanistan is run by warlords. Warlords tend not to be moderate.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #189 - September 15, 2009, 01:09 PM

Are you taking the example of one of the poorest, conservative, volatile and dangerous regions of the world to prove your point?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #190 - September 15, 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 12:51 PM

So how did a country in which - as I am sure you would assert - the "vast majority of Muslims" are "moderates" end up having in its laws the death penalty for apostasy from Islam?

Who ever said that Afghanistan was full of moderates?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #191 - September 15, 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote from: Hassan on September 14, 2009, 01:13 PM
Narrow-minded bigots with a deep and irrational hatred towards a huge slice of the human race

Just show everybody where I have shown myself to be a "bigot" Hassan. My initial post on this thread was simply taking issue with this site propagating the dangerous fallacy that there can be a Koranically valid "non-political Islam". Over and above that, all I have really said in so many words is that if people claim to belong to a particular movement with a particular well-known ideology then it is reasonable to assume they subscribe to that ideology. Thus, if someone calls themselves a "Christian" it is reasonable to assume that they believe someone called Jesus was "the Son of God" who was born of a virgin, crucified and on the third day rose from the dead and anybody who does not share this view will burn in hell. Is that being "bigoted"? Is it "bigoted" to assume that someone who belongs to a political group like the British National Party holds certain racist views even if they don't openly express them? Is it "bigoted" to be sceptical if a member of a known racist political party claims "I am not a racist"? So why is it "bigoted" to be likewise sceptical of claims by members of "The Party of Allah" (Ar hizbullah: Koran 58,22) to being "secular" and "peaceful" when their core ideological text clearly and uncompromisingly advocates the implimentation of "divine law" and jihad (holy war)?

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and wants them prevented from sharing the rights and freedoms others have

What "rights and freedoms" do you think I want Muslims to be prevented from "sharing" exactly?

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and kicked out of "your" country.

I don't deny that I don't welcome the presence in "my" country of people who would, given the chance, make me and mine into second-class citizens forever having to walk on eggshells lest some frenzied mob of fanatics murder us in our very homes if we say something they perceive as "insulting" their precious religion and its "prophet". Why should I?

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Who will be the target of your hatred after Muslims are all gone?

Anyone who doesn't share your politics?

Your neighbour for allowing his dog to piss on your neatly cut lawn?

You may have onstensibly left Islam, Hassan, but you still retain a large part of the hallmark victimized, "unjustly targeted" Muslim mentality.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #192 - September 15, 2009, 01:48 PM

DH, Just a question? Are you religious or have you ever been so? Because I think if you were not, or are used to taking scriptures literally whilst you were religious, it is unlikely that you would appreciate that deluded people are capable of 'honestly' interpreting scriptures to suit their conscience yet still think they are not deceiving themselves or others.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #193 - September 15, 2009, 01:57 PM

Hey, DH, you don't think that the power base of a state is held by just a few do you? If so, bravo, what an ground breakingly new discovery!

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #194 - September 15, 2009, 01:58 PM

No that isn't what I am saying. I can't be bothered explaining it at the moment. Maybe tomorrow.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #195 - September 15, 2009, 02:01 PM

Quote from: brainyape on September 15, 2009, 01:48 PM
DH, Just a question? Are you religious or have you ever been so?

Although christened in a Roman Catholic church, I was, as a child, fortunate to have parents who spared me exposure to having their myths and legends taught to me as fact.

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Because I think if you were not, or are used to taking scriptures literally whilst you were religious, it is unlikely that you would appreciate that deluded people are capable of 'honestly' interpreting scriptures to suit their conscience yet still think they are not deceiving themselves or others.

How can someone who "interprets" the clear Koranic injunction to "mercilessly" flog adulterers as "Allah no longer wants horrid things like this to be done" not be deceiving themselves? Hassan himself admits he was doing just that.

BTW, no one has answered my question of how a "moderate" Muslim can be distinguished from a so-called "extremist". Perhaps you can do so.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #196 - September 15, 2009, 02:04 PM

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BTW, no one has answered my question of how a "moderate" Muslim can be distinguished from a so-called "extremist". Perhaps you can do so.

Moderates don't kill people. Pretty distinct difference.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #197 - September 15, 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 02:01 PM
Although christened in a Roman Catholic church, I was, as a child, fortunate to have parents who spared me exposure to having their myths and legends taught to me as fact.

However, you were still forcibly christened by your parents who obviously took their faith seriously enough to do that, ergo, facilitating you to possibly become an extremist in later years (ridiculous but, your own point). So if I were you, I'd get off this forum now, and give 'em hell. Oh, and I just worked out what D H stands for.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #198 - September 15, 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 15, 2009, 01:57 PM
Hey, DH, you don't think that the power base of a state is held by just a few do you? If so, bravo, what an ground breakingly new discovery!

So what's to stop some western country eg Holland going the way of Afghanistan and a small minority of vicious sharia enforcing "warlords" taking hold against the (alleged) wishes of the (allegedly) "vast majority of peace-loving, moderate Muslims" in Holland?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #199 - September 15, 2009, 02:17 PM

Many Christians are capable of worshipping a God who mercilessly kills the firstborns of Egypt. They don't even bat an eyelid when they read the stuff. How are the same people capable of running orphanages and charities?

I never thought of that until I seen the question asked by someone else. There should be similar ways of doing the same in Islam. The power of delusion is immense.

Of course people would feel that they are deceiving themselves once the mental equilibrium between their delusions, morality and rationality is disturbed. Depending on the power of their delusions, they may reject faith, or go back to it.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #200 - September 15, 2009, 02:31 PM

The issue of Afghanistan will require a long discussion. For a start, Afghanistan was a nation that was used for proxying by the superpowers during the cold war and it has a complex political history. That's the best breeding ground for political Islam.

Holland is not the best comparison to make against such a country.

This doesn't disprove the possibility of a purely personal version of Islam.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #201 - September 15, 2009, 02:32 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 15, 2009, 02:11 PM
However, you were still forcibly christened by your parents who obviously took their faith seriously enough to do that,

A fair point, although my parents are irreligious. However, I do not call myself a "Christian" because I do not believe in the basic premises of Christianity like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus. To describe myself thus would be dishonest.Likewise, people who continue to call themselves "Muslims" when they (claim to) reject the Koran's nastier teachings are being dishonest.

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ergo, facilitating you to possibly become an extremist in later years

Someone who has been imbued with the merest hint of a religious identity at birth is I am sure more likely to "get into" whatever faith they were "born into" later in life than someone who has been spared this. If that religious identity happens to be "Muslim" or some other irredeemably violent cult all the worse don't you agree?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #202 - September 15, 2009, 02:32 PM

What brainyape said about Afghanistan

fuck you
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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #203 - September 15, 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 15, 2009, 02:04 PM
Moderates don't kill people. Pretty distinct difference.

So the only difference between a "moderate" Muslim and an "extremist" is that the latter actually engages in killing. So those guys carrying placcards like "slaughter those who insult Islam" can be classed as "moderates" as long as they don't actually DO any slaughtering. Correct?

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #204 - September 15, 2009, 03:03 PM

Quote from: brainyape on September 15, 2009, 02:17 PM
Many Christians are capable of worshipping a God who mercilessly kills the firstborns of Egypt. They don't even bat an eyelid when they read the stuff. How are the same people capable of running orphanages and charities?

Yes. It is amazing what religious faith can make people turn a blind eye to. "Yahweh" is a murdering ethnic-cleansing-ordering psycho of the first degree (Muhammad based Allah on him y'know). However, Christians and even Jews can validly satisfy themselves that God's commandments to the Israelites to slaughter men, women and children during their invasion of the "promised land" can be understood in a "historical context" and that they are under no obligations to behave in the same way. Moreover, Christians have the "turn the other cheek" teachings of Jesus to provide a further religious validation for eschewing "holy war" in today's world.

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I never thought of that until I seen the question asked by someone else. There should be similar ways of doing the same in Islam.

Experience in today's world should be enough to tell you that Muslims have an especial difficulty in refraining from Old-Testament-style "holy" violence. This is in fact due to the nature of the Koran itself which regards Jihad (holy war) as mandatory until "The religion of truth triumphs over ALL religion". (Koran 9:33)

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #205 - September 15, 2009, 03:03 PM

Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 02:32 PM
A fair point, although my parents are irreligious. However, I do not call myself a "Christian" because I do not believe in the basic premises of Christianity like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus. To describe myself thus would be dishonest.Likewise, people who continue to call themselves "Muslims" when they (claim to) reject the Koran's nastier teachings are being dishonest.

Someone who has been imbued with the merest hint of a religious identity at birth is I am sure more likely to "get into" whatever faith they were "born into" later in life than someone who has been spared this. If that religious identity happens to be "Muslim" or some other irredeemably violent cult all the worse don't you agree?

No, I reckon they suck just the same, but in different ways.

Hassan wasn't brought up strictly, yet he became a committed Muslim later on. How old are you? Theres always time to see the light and return to your faith roots as he once did.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #206 - September 15, 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote from: brainyape on September 15, 2009, 02:31 PM
The issue of Afghanistan will require a long discussion. For a start, Afghanistan was a nation that was used for proxying by the superpowers during the cold war and it has a complex political history. That's the best breeding ground for political Islam.

Afghan women (and Muslim women generally) were being forced into Burkhas and apostates there murdered long before the "Superpowers" ever existed. Christians were Judicially murdered in 9th century "tolerant" Muslim Spain for "insulting" Muhammad - who was in the habit of having his opponents and detractors "taken out". This stuff has been going on for centuries. It is simply the sort of thing has always gone on wherever Islam gets established.

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Holland is not the best comparison to make against such a country.

Holland, like other western countries, is experiencing disproportionate problems from its growing Muslim "communities" - including no go areas in a number of its towns and cities.

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This doesn't disprove the possibility of a purely personal version of Islam.

Islam can only be "personal" where it has no option to be otherwise. Islam in the west is being as faithful to the Koran as it can be AT THE MOMENT. As it becomes more able to impose its mores it will do so. It is in the nature of the beast I am afraid.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #207 - September 15, 2009, 03:29 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 15, 2009, 03:03 PM

No, I reckon they suck just the same, but in different ways.

In what ways exactly?

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Hassan wasn't brought up strictly, yet he became a committed Muslim later on.

Which proves my point about the dangers of acquiring ANY kind of a "Muslim" identity - particuarly when it is a person's ONLY identity.

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Theres always time to see the light and return to your faith roots as he once did.

It ain't going to happen.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #208 - September 15, 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 03:03 PM
Yes. It is amazing what religious faith can make people turn a blind eye to. "Yahweh" is a murdering ethnic-cleansing-ordering psycho of the first degree (Muhammad based Allah on him y'know). However, Christians and even Jews can validly satisfy themselves that God's commandments to the Israelites to slaughter men, women and children during their invasion of the "promised land" can be understood in a "historical context" and that they are under no obligations to behave in the same way. Moreover, Christians have the "turn the other cheek" teachings of Jesus to provide a further religious validation for eschewing "holy war" in today's world.

There are good stuff in the Quran too, that are enough for many Muslims to overlook the violent stuff.

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Experience in today's world should be enough to tell you that Muslims have an especial difficulty in refraining from Old-Testament-style "holy" violence. This is in fact due to the nature of the Koran itself which regards Jihad (holy war) as mandatory until "The religion of truth triumphs over ALL religion". (Koran 9:33)

but where? It doesn't say the world. Does it? For someone who considers this to be only for the land of Arabia, that's already done. In fact I've seen Muslims on youtube who thinks this doesn't apply to places captured after the death of the prophet.

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Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
Reply #209 - September 15, 2009, 05:25 PM

Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 02:32 PM
A fair point, although my parents are irreligious. However, I do not call myself a "Christian" because I do not believe in the basic premises of Christianity like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus. To describe myself thus would be dishonest.Likewise, people who continue to call themselves "Muslims" when they (claim to) reject the Koran's nastier teachings are being dishonest.

As I said, you still seem to be not able to understand what the deluded are capable of.

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Someone who has been imbued with the merest hint of a religious identity at birth is I am sure more likely to "get into" whatever faith they were "born into" later in life than someone who has been spared this. If that religious identity happens to be "Muslim" or some other irredeemably violent cult all the worse don't you agree?

Now, with plenty of open critcism of the religion thanks to the Internet, isn't it also likely that they might end up on this site?

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