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Theme Changer

 Topic: Funny cleric crying (video)

 (Read 7157 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Funny cleric crying (video)
     OP - December 16, 2009, 08:18 AM

    I saw this video and it made me laugh.. lol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyj3Eu43QAo
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #1 - December 16, 2009, 08:40 AM


    This makes me angry. I mean martyrdom of Hussain OK, no problem with that. But the reason why he is hitting himself is to punish himself for not being there when Hussain died, and no that doesn?t make sense. But if he really cares why doesnt he hit himself over all the people getting murdered right across the country? Yes, right over in Iraq. Where children are getting slaughtered? Surely he has a chance to do something now?  But no, he will hit himself and weep as if his own baby died, so as to feel the pain of the Shia. How is this being rational? Is this really what we need? If you feel so bad over shia why dont you go and do something about it now? Today? Over shia that are actually dying? Or other muslims? Or other people? but no, we are meant to tear out hair out for something that happened 1400 years, an event which is very sad, but what is more sad is that God let it happen, it was Qadr, they say it was done for the Islamic revolution, without the death of all those people (and babies) there would have been no Islamic revolution. How come then Shia are still a minority? How there are still sectarian wars? And there has always been.


    One, if this even actually happened and in the manner as described to us today then what good did it actually do? How can a merciful God let it happen? Two, why should I feel ashamed, or bad, I wasn?t there. Three, what about the Quranic tenets of not hitting yourself? Four, if one is not allowed to laugh because its more proper for a muslim to smile, then what is this emotional craziness? Five, what about today? What about real solidarity today?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #2 - December 16, 2009, 08:49 AM

    I want someone to explain to me when Clerics recite their Qur'an - why the heck do they exaggerate the echo over the speaker system? in an attempt to make it sound grand and spooky?

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #3 - December 16, 2009, 09:11 AM

    This makes me angry. I mean martyrdom of Hussain OK, no problem with that. But the reason why he is hitting himself is to punish himself for not being there when Hussain died, and no that doesn?t make sense. But if he really cares why doesnt he hit himself over all the people getting murdered right across the country? Yes, right over in Iraq. Where children are getting slaughtered? Surely he has a chance to do something now?  But no, he will hit himself and weep as if his own baby died, so as to feel the pain of the Shia. How is this being rational? Is this really what we need? If you feel so bad over shia why dont you go and do something about it now? Today? Over shia that are actually dying? Or other muslims? Or other people? but no, we are meant to tear out hair out for something that happened 1400 years, an event which is very sad, but what is more sad is that God let it happen, it was Qadr, they say it was done for the Islamic revolution, without the death of all those people (and babies) there would have been no Islamic revolution. How come then Shia are still a minority? How there are still sectarian wars? And there has always been.


    One, if this even actually happened and in the manner as described to us today then what good did it actually do? How can a merciful God let it happen? Two, why should I feel ashamed, or bad, I wasn?t there. Three, what about the Quranic tenets of not hitting yourself? Four, if one is not allowed to laugh because its more proper for a muslim to smile, then what is this emotional craziness? Five, what about today? What about real solidarity today?



    I agree with you, it never makes sense to me why they would hit themselves for something they didn't even see happening.. and they don't even know for sure if it actually even happened or not :p.

    But to be honest i found it pretty funny when there's a group of these guys sitting and first they're laughing and talking and then at a specific time (like 1 hr before the end of the meeting) they all suddenly start to cry in unison lol.. and to hit each other. I used to watch that on tv and laugh when i was a kid  dance
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #4 - December 16, 2009, 10:39 AM

    The whole incident of Karbala reminds me of a proper suicide mission undertaken by Imam Hussain... lipsrsealed

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #5 - December 16, 2009, 10:43 AM

    I still dont understand why. Why bring all the kids and women with you.
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #6 - December 16, 2009, 10:46 AM

    Emotional blackmail and torment. Almost like a human shield, or simply just a way of making his mission - which was doomed to fail - have the last laugh knowing how the women and kids will be treated as prisoners to rile those who had sympathy for Imam Hussain to take up arms against Yazid's Caliphate.

    Mukhtar al-Saqafi did just that in his rebellion against the Ummayads and Muawiyah ibn Yazid abdicated after his father's death.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #7 - December 16, 2009, 11:33 AM

    Emotional blackmail and torment. Almost like a human shield, or simply just a way of making his mission - which was doomed to fail - have the last laugh knowing how the women and kids will be treated as prisoners to rile those who had sympathy for Imam Hussain to take up arms against Yazid's Caliphate.

    Mukhtar al-Saqafi did just that in his rebellion against the Ummayads and Muawiyah ibn Yazid abdicated after his father's death.


    Lets remember guys, *THAT* was Islam's 'golden age'.

    Rival factions attempting to climb the greasy pole of power and idiotic halfwitts like Al-Muhajiroun today claiming it was 'oh so fucking wonderful' that there was an orgy of violence almost every day somewhere in this perfect empire they envisage.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #8 - December 16, 2009, 03:16 PM

    This makes me angry. I mean martyrdom of Hussain OK, no problem with that. But the reason why he is hitting himself is to punish himself for not being there when Hussain died, and no that doesn?t make sense. But if he really cares why doesnt he hit himself over all the people getting murdered right across the country? Yes, right over in Iraq. Where children are getting slaughtered? Surely he has a chance to do something now?  But no, he will hit himself and weep as if his own baby died, so as to feel the pain of the Shia. How is this being rational? Is this really what we need? If you feel so bad over shia why dont you go and do something about it now? Today? Over shia that are actually dying? Or other muslims? Or other people? but no, we are meant to tear out hair out for something that happened 1400 years, an event which is very sad, but what is more sad is that God let it happen, it was Qadr, they say it was done for the Islamic revolution, without the death of all those people (and babies) there would have been no Islamic revolution. How come then Shia are still a minority? How there are still sectarian wars? And there has always been.


    One, if this even actually happened and in the manner as described to us today then what good did it actually do? How can a merciful God let it happen? Two, why should I feel ashamed, or bad, I wasn?t there. Three, what about the Quranic tenets of not hitting yourself? Four, if one is not allowed to laugh because its more proper for a muslim to smile, then what is this emotional craziness? Five, what about today? What about real solidarity today?




    I know what you mean!! I grew up surrounded by Shia rituals and mourning "festivals"... it's really quite a spectacle.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #9 - December 16, 2009, 03:29 PM

    Quote
    I know what you mean!! I grew up surrounded by Shia rituals and mourning "festivals"... it's really quite a spectacle.


    Tell us more!  grin12
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #10 - December 16, 2009, 03:37 PM

    Tell us more!  grin12


    There are various threads around this forum on the subject (some with posts by me, many with posts by other ex muslims, shia or not)...
    like:

    Ex Muslims from Shi'a backgrounds
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6305.0

    Shi'a apostates?
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5121.0

    Child Cruelty Conviction Over Muslim Flogging
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5120.0

    Shiia Iran Islam (Completed Islam)
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7117.0

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #11 - December 16, 2009, 04:09 PM

    I grew up with this shiite shite. Raised shia, part of Mo's very special family (not really according to him or he'd have left better instructions for them and his ummah before his unceremonious death).

    We were told we are special, Mo's blood is in our blood and we will lead everyone on Qayyamat (judgement day). Of course we sat around 2 months of each year singing music-less songs of death and mourning, beating our chests in rhythmic harmony, wailing, weeping, crowds and crowds of people wailing, weeping, chanting, crying. As children, my cousins and I would be encouraged to compete to see who could make their chest bleed by doing hard matam, the repetitive self flagellation with our own palms.

    The really devoted young men would do zanjeer matam. At public processions and in private backyards, blood would be all over the ground, people sharing the zanjeer (multiple knives on chains) many times.

    Other men and young babies would do qama, hitting the HEAD with a SWORD.

    The really devoted young women would walk barefeet on coals.

    All to prove how much we love Mo's very special family.

    I so wish I was making all this up.


    That's really disturbing man, I'm sorry to hear that and glad you got out..
    Did you ever participate in the matams as well or just watch? And did you ever cry? I'm just wondering because I find it hard to understand how they could cry so easily about something they had only read about in the books and never saw with their own eyes.. i think i would have to try very hard to make myself cry.
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #12 - December 16, 2009, 04:13 PM

    I'm just wondering because I find it hard to understand how they could cry so easily about something they had only read about in the books and never saw with their own eyes.. i think i would have to try very hard to make myself cry.


    They're mental.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #13 - December 16, 2009, 04:19 PM

    Quote
    They're mental.


    I don't think that's a nice way to talk about allat's family etc  whistling2
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #14 - December 16, 2009, 04:21 PM

     grin12 Sorry!

    Well they are mental.. at that moment when they are heavy in the throngs of their bros mourning and listening to the story of Karbala... it's like what happens during mass panic. People in large groups that begin to do the same thing can often behave crazy.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #15 - December 16, 2009, 04:25 PM

    I grew up with this shiite shite. Raised shia, part of Mo's very special family (not really according to him or he'd have left better instructions for them and his ummah before his unceremonious death).

    We were told we are special, Mo's blood is in our blood and we will lead everyone on Qayyamat (judgement day). Of course we sat around 2 months of each year singing music-less songs of death and mourning, beating our chests in rhythmic harmony, wailing, weeping, crowds and crowds of people wailing, weeping, chanting, crying. As children, my cousins and I would be encouraged to compete to see who could make their chest bleed by doing hard matam, the repetitive self flagellation with our own palms.

    The really devoted young men would do zanjeer matam. At public processions and in private backyards, blood would be all over the ground, people sharing the zanjeer (multiple knives on chains) many times.

    Other men and young babies would do qama, hitting the HEAD with a SWORD.

    The really devoted young women would walk barefeet on coals.

    All to prove how much we love Mo's very special family.

    I so wish I was making all this up.

    Pretty much my story as well...

    and Muharram is just around the corner here too...my family will be involved in majalis and I must tolerate this whilst I am still living with them!

    This will be my first proper Muharram as a skeptical atheist who just cant stand the sight of Shias tearing themselves for the useless 'Ghamm-e-Hussain' sham each and every year.

    I swear last year was the last time I vowed to cry hearing concocted stories of how the likes of 6 month old Ali Asghar ibn Hussain got an arrow fired in its throat when Hussain took him along to Amr ibn Saad's forces to win sympathy. Or the stories about Ali Akbar ibn Hussain supposedly looked just like Muhammad and his Fajr Azaan before the battle on 10th Muharram was perhaps the most painful and emotional one heard...or the stories about Abbas ibn Ali got slayed when he tried to go get water from the Euphrates.

    A proper suicide mission.  finmad

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #16 - December 16, 2009, 04:29 PM

    I don't think that's a nice way to talk about allat's family etc  whistling2


    you're right, and yea... that mass panic thing really fascinates/surprises me, would like to know more about that  yes
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #17 - December 16, 2009, 04:34 PM

    Pretty much my story as well...

    and Muharram is just around the corner here too...my family will be involved in majalis and I must tolerate this whilst I am still living with them!

    This will be my first proper Muharram as a skeptical atheist who just cant stand the sight of Shias tearing themselves for the useless 'Ghamm-e-Hussain' sham each and every year.

    I swear last year was the last time I vowed to cry hearing concocted stories of how the likes of 6 month old Ali Asghar ibn Hussain got an arrow fired in its throat when Hussain took him along to Amr ibn Saad's forces to win sympathy. Or the stories about Ali Akbar ibn Hussain supposedly looked just like Muhammad and his Fajr Azaan before the battle on 10th Muharram was perhaps the most painful and emotional one heard...or the stories about Abbas ibn Ali got slayed when he tried to go get water from the Euphrates.

    A proper suicide mission.  finmad


    Take it easy man. Will you have to participate in the matams etc, or can you decline?
    If I were you I would try not to take it too seriously, stay away from the times when they physically hurt themselves if i can, and watch and secretly laugh when they're all crying in the majlis etc  Cheesy

    I'm surprised by how the same story can make you cry each year though. Do you have to think about crying, thinking 'i'm supposed to cry' subconsciously to make yourself cry, or are you genuinely sad and its pretty much automatic?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #18 - December 16, 2009, 04:35 PM

    Did you ever participate in the matams as well or just watch?


    I did participate in the matam, it was more of a musical experience for me, now looking back I realize that. When you have crowds of people beating anything (their own chests in this case) in unison, it creates a sort of trance like state, the monotonous rhythm that is. Plus the chanting/singing is usually very melodic and sometimes actually beautiful, if you have an ear for rhythm and music. I used to sing the nohas too, with my mom and later by myself, and lead the chorus in the singing - the whole enchilada. It's how I learned to sing, and where I developed a bug for performance and poetry, so in a way, I'm glad I went through all that. Though I wouldn't go back now, no way. I use the singing/performance/poetry/music in other ways now.

    And did you ever cry? I'm just wondering because I find it hard to understand how they could cry so easily about something they had only read about in the books and never saw with their own eyes.. i think i would have to try very hard to make myself cry.


    Y'know that was the strangest thing to me. I felt bad about these characters Hussain, Asghar, Abbas, Zainab, Sakina etc. whose highly mythologized (a term I learned later) stories were repeated in every majalis (several ones each year are held in both private homes and public mosques). I felt bad for them like I would feel bad for any character in any story who goes through torture and a painful, slow death. But I never, even when I believed in Islam as a whole, ever understood why the extreme emotional attachment some people seemed to show to these at most historical figures, and possibly just mythical composite characters in what is essentially a tribal/folk legend. Some people seemed to be really deeply crying over the events at Karbala. Like it was happening NOW. Like it was happening TO THEM.

    Some years later, I once asked one of the older ladies how to get myself to cry like those people who seemed to be wailing and walking around with red puffy eyes all evening. She told me to just imagine the worst thing I could imagine that has happened to me or could happen to me, and then let the tears flow.

    I wondered about this later... all this grand religious ritualistic spectacle was really like a giant group therapy session. Where nobody was talking about their own actual issues, but were all using this mythical story as a way to purge their own sadness and fears, a pseudo-catharsis that is probably a very human thing to do, cry sometimes, let the steam off, but it comes, in this case and in most cases of religion, wrapped in unquestioned traditions and imaginary characters, mythology and ritualized self-flagellation.


    I don't think that's a nice way to talk about allat's family etc  whistling2


    No offense taken. LOL I've said the same thing about some of them.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #19 - December 16, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Take it easy man. Will you have to participate in the matams etc, or can you decline?
    If I were you I would try not to take it too seriously, stay away from the times when they physically hurt themselves if i can, and watch and secretly laugh when they're all crying in the majlis etc  Cheesy

    I'm surprised by how the same story can make you cry each year though. Do you have to think about crying, thinking 'i'm supposed to cry' subconsciously to make yourself cry, or are you genuinely sad and its pretty much automatic?

    Well I am lucky in that my family, and close extended ones, have always refrained from flagellation that actually causes blood to spill etc. Its just the standard chest beating, singing along the noha recitals in the crowd and often just standing back and watching lads chain themselves in the street and showing off their blood as a trophy for the (often very attractive) Shia girls who watch afar from windows or behind screens etc.

    I have no qualms going along, and attending this as I have never been forced to do anything which I never wanted to do in Muharram my entire life. So I am safe and secure, pissed off at the lunacy yes but not under any threat and I choose to take passive part just to help family out and avoid being the Asshole on Ashura  whistling2

    Its not hard to make me cry, and yes I have cried a lot sometimes (sometimes my pseudo-Muslim dad wasnt pleased with it because he thought I over-did myself  Cheesy ) but this time I wont shed a tear.

    In fact I'll just listen and scoff silently at such fables with no historical accuracy or intellectual importance.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #20 - December 16, 2009, 05:01 PM

    Thanks allat, very fascinating to know all of this. I've always wondered about this but could never ask a shia for obvious reasons  yes

    But I never, even when I believed in Islam as a whole, ever understood why the extreme emotional attachment some people seemed to show to these at most historical figures, and possibly just mythical composite characters in what is essentially a tribal/folk legend. Some people seemed to be really deeply crying over the events at Karbala. Like it was happening NOW. Like it was happening TO THEM.

    Some years later, I once asked one of the older ladies how to get myself to cry like those people who seemed to be wailing and walking around with red puffy eyes all evening. She told me to just imagine the worst thing I could imagine that has happened to me or could happen to me, and then let the tears flow.


    This confirms what I used to think, on how they could possibly be that sad over something they never saw happening (precisely like that cleric in the video I posted at the start of this thread).
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #21 - December 16, 2009, 05:05 PM

    Well I am lucky in that my family, and close extended ones, have always refrained from flagellation that actually causes blood to spill etc. Its just the standard chest beating, singing along the noha recitals in the crowd and often just standing back and watching lads chain themselves in the street and showing off their blood as a trophy for the (often very attractive) Shia girls who watch afar from windows or behind screens etc.

    I have no qualms going along, and attending this as I have never been forced to do anything which I never wanted to do in Muharram my entire life. So I am safe and secure, pissed off at the lunacy yes but not under any threat and I choose to take passive part just to help family out and avoid being the Asshole on Ashura  whistling2


    Its good that you're safe and won't be forced to do anything  yes. I would personally be disturbed watching anyone chain themselves and would not want to watch that, but you can always look away at those times and wave at the shia girls instead  whistling2
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #22 - December 16, 2009, 05:15 PM

    This confirms what I used to think, on how they could possibly be that sad over something they never saw happening (precisely like that cleric in the video I posted at the start of this thread).


    Some of the people would and probably will still swear that they really are grieving over Hussain and his family. There are always those who are doing it either out of a sense of duty/nationalism or because they take all stories to heart or because they do believe that these people hundreds of years ago were exactly like their own fathers, sons, daughters etc. That is, some start having these "relationships" with some of these mythical characters... you'll hear stories of various characters (like Hussain, Abbas, Ali, Zainab) showing up in people's dreams "telling" them things like what to do with their lives, who to marry, etc. So it is probably more complicated than just a pseudo-catharsis for everyone involved.

    Like atheist.pk mentioned, the zanjeer matam (with blades/knives) is most likely a way for the younger men (and some of the older ones do it too), to show the womenfolk how manly they are.

    It's all a fascinating subject that I wouldn't mind doing my thesis on, if I didn't y'know, value my own life and stuff.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #23 - December 16, 2009, 05:23 PM

    thesis, so you're doing PhD?

    You can always do your thesis and not show it to anyone except your teacher, or does it have to be publically released?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #24 - December 16, 2009, 05:24 PM

    I really want a read an unbiased account of the Battle of Karbala, which means avoidance of both Shia glorification of the so-called Ahle-Bayt and also Sunni apologists for the Umayyads -  as well as Islam-bashing Arab-phobic Iranian nationalists.

    But that's near to impossible

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #25 - December 16, 2009, 05:30 PM

    I'm in the process of finishing up undergrad and then going to grad/post grad ASAP. I'm still playing with different ideas for theses/papers and the whole Shia ritual mourning phenomenon is something fascinating that I think would make for a very interesting paper, something that's not widely known about, and has not been analyzed from an atheist/exmuslim/exshia perspective (as far as I know). It's one of the options I'm considering yeah.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #26 - December 16, 2009, 05:33 PM

    Atheist.pk, I think you should check the wikipedia account for it, they're the most neutral/objective i've seen anyone about the topic.

    On another note, why do you care anymore? There have been 100s of battles throughout the history of mankind and where people were killed, this one was no more special than any of those IMO.
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #27 - December 16, 2009, 05:35 PM

    I'm in the process of finishing up undergrad and then going to grad/post grad ASAP. I'm still playing with different ideas for theses/papers and the whole Shia ritual mourning phenomenon is something fascinating that I think would make for a very interesting paper, something that's not widely known about, and has not been analyzed from an atheist/exmuslim/exshia perspective (as far as I know). It's one of the options I'm considering yeah.


    If not as a thesis, you can always write a paper on it and publish it on the internet, that won't put you in any danger imo.
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #28 - December 16, 2009, 05:47 PM

    Yeah... might do that. As soon as I'm done with all this darn studying! (I kid, I actually love academia, especially the "soft sciences", which really aren't as soft as I used to think.)

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Funny cleric crying (video)
     Reply #29 - December 16, 2009, 06:02 PM

    Atheist.pk, I think you should check the wikipedia account for it, they're the most neutral/objective i've seen anyone about the topic.

    On another note, why do you care anymore? There have been 100s of battles throughout the history of mankind and where people were killed, this one was no more special than any of those IMO.

    Yes but wikipedia isnt exactly accurate Wink

    Why do I care? Well its simple, after living my entire life being told about it in majalis, songs, writings and what not...I only care because of one thing: Separating fact from fiction.

    The truth sets you free.  bunny

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
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