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Theme Changer

 Topic: What is the most secular & sexually liberal country in the world?

 (Read 47859 times)
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  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #30 - December 20, 2009, 04:55 PM
    Well, if you consider the long term effects of things, France is a secular country and wants to remain that way, hence it is banning religious dresses etc in public.  Considering all the violence brought into the world by religions, I think this is a good step. You can still practice whatever you want in private, possibly in churches, mosques, etc too, but its a step in the right direction to start to ban stuff in public.

    Consider this. Drugs are banned in most countries because they harm people's health and if they are allowed, they will spread from one person to another and many naive/deluded people will start to use drugs.

    Religions are similar - they cause violence, oppression, lack of progress of soceity, etc. So why shouldn't they be banned - if a lot of people take drugs, does that make it right?
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #31 - December 20, 2009, 04:59 PM
    Study what the banning of alcohol in the US in the early 20th century caused. Many people argue that banning soft drugs such as marijuana causes more problems than it solves.

    A very good way to organize society seems to be to allow and actively control some irrational behaviour and only  fight the extremes.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #32 - December 20, 2009, 05:03 PM
    Quote
    Consider this. Drugs are banned in most countries because they harm people's health and if they are allowed, they will spread from one person to another and many naive/deluded people will start to use drugs.

    Wrong, countries where drugs are legal have the same amount of (and some less) drug use then where it is prohibited. All research shows it is more sensible to legalise drugs. I cant be asked getting into detail as this isn't the subject being discussed, you can check NewScientist for more info.

    Secularism involves providing religious freedoms, not being authoritarian. Banning the niqab is oppressive, even if the intent is a good one.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #33 - December 20, 2009, 05:08 PM
    Drugs probably weren't a good example, replace drugs with 'rape' and then consider my example..

    They aren't becoming dictators, all they're doing is ensuring that the public places of their cities remain religion free. Imagine a city where there are no religious people in funny outfits like hijab, nun outfits, etc. It represents the triumph of secularism & modernization to me.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #34 - December 20, 2009, 05:10 PM
    Rape is an even worse example! Nobody enjoys being raped, it is a crime that ONLY produces victims. Not everyone wearing a niqab is a victim, they may do it out of choice and it is their freedom you are taking away.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #35 - December 20, 2009, 05:14 PM
    Definitely Antarctica, I'm afraid. Have fun Afro
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #36 - December 20, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Very well, consider the example of the swine flu virus then. Consider that those who have this virus are quarantined to stop the spread of the virus from one person to another. The same applies to religion, it is also a kind of pyschological illness which has the potential to spread itself from one person to another in the society. Doesn't it make sense that those with this virus/meme should be 'quarantined' or forced to keep it to themselves and not spread it out to others?
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #37 - December 20, 2009, 05:23 PM
    Sounds very totalitarian and inhumane.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #38 - December 20, 2009, 05:26 PM
    IMO It is the right thing to do Peru, by taking small steps like this I think it will eventually eredicate this 'virus' and free up the next generations

    Edit: Good video to watch:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaJelU29jeI

    P.S do you think it is humane that young kids are brainwashed & indoctrinated into religious beliefs as a kid? That's the only reason why religions have survived this long and how they keep on surviving.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #39 - December 20, 2009, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 20, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Very well, consider the example of the swine flu virus then. Consider that those who have this virus are quarantined to stop the spread of the virus from one person to another. The same applies to religion, it is also a kind of pyschological illness which has the potential to spread itself from one person to another in the society. Doesn't it make sense that those with this virus/meme should be 'quarantined' or forced to keep it to themselves and not spread it out to others?


    Make all the arguments for this you want, but one thing is clear-- "quarantining" people for their beliefs is anything but liberal.
    fuck you
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #40 - December 20, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote
    Make all the arguments for this you want, but one thing is clear-- "quarantining" people for their beliefs is anything but liberal.


    Depends mate, when their beliefs are 1000s of years old and come from the dark ages, I think banning them is liberal and progressive  yes

    Again, its not like they'll throw you in a prison for being a muslim, they're only banning certain things in schools, etc so it doesn't spread amongst the kids, and in public
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #41 - December 20, 2009, 05:56 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 20, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Why not? have you ever been to Turkey? I have and I can tell you it's surprisingly librial place, for example, you'd have a club right next to a mosque, one size you would get jamaatis going to pray and other-side all the clubbers and women scantly dressed 

    When you leave the main Turkish cities and hit the villages, you start getting varied scenarios.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #42 - December 20, 2009, 05:58 PM
    Nope cant agree to this. Freedom of Belief is the staple of every liberal democracy. That means if you wish to believe, you are free to do so, if you dont want to believe, you are free to do so. The moment you infringe on somebody elses belief then you have crossed the line. Also, criticism of religion should not be equaled with hate speech. Academic, objective, criticism of any religion/ideology can NOT be equated with hate speech.

    VIVA LA LIBERTE!
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #43 - December 20, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote
    Nope cant agree to this. Freedom of Belief is the staple of every liberal democracy. That means if you wish to believe, you are free to do so, if you dont want to believe, you are free to do so. The moment you infringe on somebody elses belief then you have crossed the line. Also, criticism of religion should not be equaled with hate speech. Academic, objective, criticism of any religion/ideology can NOT be equated with hate speech.

    VIVA LA LIBERTE!


    Believing is different than wearing hijab/religious outfits in school though. You can believe freely, just keep your beliefs to yourself.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #44 - December 20, 2009, 06:23 PM
    Yeah but would you seriously tell a jewish man not wear his yarmulke in an office or school?
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #45 - December 20, 2009, 06:33 PM
    Quote
    Yeah but would you seriously tell a jewish man not wear his yarmulke in an office or school?


    I would. It sounds harsh, but the right decision is often tough. I will consider the long-term effects of a secular society and and tell him
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #46 - December 20, 2009, 06:35 PM
    Would you tell goths not to dye their hair black?
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #47 - December 20, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Or a rastafari not to have dreads?
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #48 - December 20, 2009, 06:39 PM
    The Antarctic, definitely.  Can't beat those penguins for liberalism.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #49 - December 20, 2009, 06:41 PM
    Goths = fashion, not religion!  Cheesy
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #50 - December 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
    Antarctic is a continent, not a country  parrot
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #51 - December 20, 2009, 06:46 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
    Antarctic is a continent, not a country  parrot


    No government. You can't get more liberal.  Cheesy


    Quote from: liberated on December 20, 2009, 06:41 PM
    Goths = fashion, not religion!  Cheesy


    Uh. What if there suddenly is a fashion of wearing head scarves. How do you decide whether something is a fashion or a religion? And why exactly would you distinguish between the two? What difference does it make why someone appears a certain way?

    Certainly, it should be the consequences of an action that decide whether the action is lawful, not the motives.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #52 - December 20, 2009, 06:47 PM
    Quote from: liberated on December 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
    Antarctic is a continent, not a country  parrot


    I don't think the penguins know the difference, so we'll not worry, eh?   parrot
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #53 - December 20, 2009, 06:50 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on December 20, 2009, 06:46 PM

    Uh. What if there suddenly is a fashion of wearing head scarves. How do you decide whether something is a fashion or a religion? And why exactly would you distinguish between the two? What difference does it make why someone appears a certain way?

    Certainly, it should be the consequences of an action that decide whether the action is lawful, not the motives.


    I guess you have a point. May be this stuff should be allowed in public & in work, etc, but at the very least no children should be allowed to wear any religious symbols anywhere in public or in private because its child abuse  finmad
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #54 - December 20, 2009, 06:52 PM
    Banning a woman's right to choose her clothing is the epitome of anti-liberalism. It's a great example of secularism at it's height, but secularism is not liberalism. And I'm guessing you're talking about social liberality, thus banning the hijab is really the opposite of social liberty. So I really don't know what the heck your arguing about liberated.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #55 - December 20, 2009, 06:53 PM
    But again, my definition for 'liberal' includes sexual liberalism & no oppression of women. And seeing how hijab is mostly used to oppress women and repress sexual liberism, its a good sign that France banned/is thinking about banning it  bunny
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #56 - December 20, 2009, 06:56 PM
    Then you obviously have no idea what liberalism means.

    What your arguing for is social engineering, the total opposite of the liberal society.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #57 - December 20, 2009, 06:59 PM
    What about hijab - fetishism? If you ban wearing hijabs in public, are you then not repressing the sexual liberty of hijab fetishists?

    BTW: Most prominent case of hijab-fetishism


    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #58 - December 20, 2009, 06:59 PM
    Besides people are NOT cattle. Religious or irreligious. Just a few months ago, if not weeks, I was devout/practicing. Same person as I am today, with the same respect towards all people. But, if you were to tell me that my mom has to remove her veil, even though she doesnt want to, I would call for self-defence. Even though I hate, detest violence, I still would, under the flag of self-defense, for my liberty and freedom of belief, fight the powers that be, as contorted as that all sounds. OK actually Im not sure if I would use violent means, but I would protest and demonstrate and do anything else that I can, I would not see it as something thats fair and just. It would for me seem as the beginning of a new holocaust, a new Kristallnacht. And that horror can NEVER be relived again, ever.

    Now imagine if you were to do this with every religious group, you'd have an uprising on your hands. And lots of blood.

    Besides, this removal of religious imagery has already been done, and it didnt do shit, it only suppressed faith long enough for it to explode and boom when the suppression was released.

    The only way to beat superstition, religion and an ideology is with education, rationality and patience. Using force to "deconvert" people is just as wrong as using force to convert people, and it uses the same pretentious bullshit excuse "this is for your own good".


    BESIDES
    as far as I know it was banning the wear of niqab/burka in governmental institutions. And people voted against it, or something was done so it didnt happen. It was never the hjiab in the first place.
  • Re: What is the most liberal country in the world?
     Reply #59 - December 20, 2009, 07:00 PM
    I probably meant it in terms of the most liberal society, rather than the most liberal government. A society without hijab  = liberal!
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