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 Topic: Inspiring words

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  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #90 - December 23, 2009, 11:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 23, 2009, 08:36 PM
    Why does Ali Sina's goals have to be the same as ours? He is not part of CEMB, he has different goals to us and is in no way associated with us. He doesn't have to act in any particular way just because he used to be a muslim. He doesn't have to change anything just because you feel all ex-muslim activists should behave in a certain way. He is not obliged to do anything.

    Ali Sina is crazy and deranged, he is not going to listen to reason and even if he was sane he is not obliged to follow any arbitrary rules regardless of whether they make sense or not.


    He can do what he likes. The discussion was rooted in how people feel about him in general. I, like quite a few others, think that his attitudes at their extreme taints whatever good he does.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #91 - December 23, 2009, 11:10 PM
    You're trying to put Ali Sina in a group that he never put himself in, that's what I've been criticising you for.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #92 - December 23, 2009, 11:17 PM

    I think you have misinterpreted what I've been saying - I'm sorry if it came out wrong.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #93 - December 23, 2009, 11:24 PM
    Fair enough then, sorry about that.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #94 - December 23, 2009, 11:32 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on December 23, 2009, 08:19 PM
    There are similarities because Nazism, like Islam and Communism is totalitarian. Nazism is infact a form of socialism


    Yeah, drink that Ayn Rand "all ideologies are either collectivist or individualist" Kool-Aid
    fuck you
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #95 - December 23, 2009, 11:41 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on December 23, 2009, 11:32 PM
    Yeah, drink that Ayn Rand "all ideologies are either collectivist or individualist" Kool-Aid


    Nah.. the proper term for it is in fact 'national socialism'... Hitler himself wrote in Mein Kampf that had it not been for their racial policies, the Nazi party would have been just like any other Marxist party.  Even if you listen to his some of his speeches, you will realise this.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #96 - December 23, 2009, 11:50 PM

    Comparing Islam to Nazism completely clouds the issues. At the most, the far-right Ummah-ist ideologues and Islamists might bear comparison, 'Ummah Nationlism' in its more deranged forms might have some resonances, but comparing the religion with nazism just distorts the issues.

    Its important to be accurate so that you can accurately challenge Islam.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #97 - December 23, 2009, 11:58 PM
    Yep, and North Korea calls itself the People's Democratic Republic of Korea-- how accurate do you think that description is?

    It's quite true that the NSDAP did adopt elements of socialism into its program, but capital remained in the hands of the industrialists, and most of it was not expropriated by the state, even if the state did direct much of what the industrialists were doing (but not any more than the war economy of the UK). Furthermore, in order not to alienate the capitalists, the military brass and the churches, Hitler had the most socialist elements of the Party physically liquidated or marginalized in 1934.
    fuck you
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #98 - December 24, 2009, 01:05 AM
    Quote from: billy on December 23, 2009, 11:50 PM
    Comparing Islam to Nazism completely clouds the issues. At the most, the far-right Ummah-ist ideologues and Islamists might bear comparison, 'Ummah Nationlism' in its more deranged forms might have some resonances, but comparing the religion with nazism just distorts the issues.

    Its important to be accurate so that you can accurately challenge Islam.


    If that was to me, then you should know that I was comparing the totalitarianism of Islam as a political system with that of Nazism.  There is a difference from saying that Islam is like Nazism.  I agree that there are a large number of fundamental differences between the two.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #99 - December 24, 2009, 01:07 AM
    @Billy. Good point.  Afro
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #100 - December 24, 2009, 01:19 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on December 23, 2009, 11:58 PM
    Yep, and North Korea calls itself the People's Democratic Republic of Korea-- how accurate do you think that description is?

    It's quite true that the NSDAP did adopt elements of socialism into its program, but capital remained in the hands of the industrialists, and most of it was not expropriated by the state, even if the state did direct much of what the industrialists were doing (but not any more than the war economy of the UK). Furthermore, in order not to alienate the capitalists, the military brass and the churches, Hitler had the most socialist elements of the Party physically liquidated or marginalized in 1934.


    True, there were big differences between his system and that of Marx (race and merit were fundamental values of his system). Nevertheless, when one looks at the stated aims of the nazis they are very much like a socialist agenda.  Hitler may have left capital in the hands of the industrialists but he nationalised their businesses and they were all directed by the party.  In reality there is no real entrepreneurship, the industrialists are simply workers themselves.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #101 - December 24, 2009, 04:17 AM
    Quote from: billy on December 23, 2009, 11:50 PM
    Comparing Islam to Nazism completely clouds the issues. At the most, the far-right Ummah-ist ideologues and Islamists might bear comparison, 'Ummah Nationlism' in its more deranged forms might have some resonances, but comparing the religion with nazism just distorts the issues.

    Its important to be accurate so that you can accurately challenge Islam.


    Both Nazism and Islam have the belief between the pure and impure, the Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Kufr - to ignore the dualistic approach that traditional Islam partitions the world into is to ignore a large chunk of Islamic theology in the process.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #102 - December 26, 2009, 04:07 PM
    Saying Islam is the new nazism is to completely misunderstand both ideologies.  Islam is a pre-democratic system whose totalitarian elements revolve around traditional hierarchies, while Nazism and Fascism are direct products of democracy in decay and their totalitarian elements are their raison d'etre.  There may be Islamist groups like Hizb ut Tahrir who have learnt alot from Nazism, but Islam as a whole - no.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #103 - December 26, 2009, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: kaiwai on December 24, 2009, 04:17 AM
    Both Nazism and Islam have the belief between the pure and impure, the Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Kufr - to ignore the dualistic approach that traditional Islam partitions the world into is to ignore a large chunk of Islamic theology in the process.



    Dualism is certainly an Islamic propensity. But that in itself is not enough to make it like Nazism.

    My problem with this line of thought is that it detracts from being accurate from Islams many flaws - which are manifold, and contextualised in a long history. Islam has enough self-incriminating moral flaws. You don't need to stretch comparisons to bring its inanity and cruelty to light.

    Oh, and what cheetah said, too ^^^
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #104 - December 26, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on December 26, 2009, 04:07 PM
    Saying Islam is the new nazism is to completely misunderstand both ideologies.  Islam is a pre-democratic system whose totalitarian elements revolve around traditional hierarchies, while Nazism and Fascism are direct products of democracy in decay and their totalitarian elements are their raison d'etre.  There may be Islamist groups like Hizb ut Tahrir who have learnt alot from Nazism, but Islam as a whole - no.

    well put  Afro
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    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #105 - December 26, 2009, 06:18 PM
    Duality is a by-product of tribalism as well as totalitarism. And tribes are pretty much totalitarism at its best anyways.

    To compare islam to nazism is as counter-productive (stupid) as stupid as stating monkeys are the ancestors of humans. It is like offering yourself as the sacrificial virgin of the year for the pit of pedants. Which is super stupid, unless oc course, you live to eat the pedantic shit and the last name of your nick is Torrance.

    * We say monkeys and humans share a recent common ancestor.
    * We say nazism and islam share the common traits of duality and absolute morality (even absolute morality might require some proof and best to be left unmentioned).
    * Islam & Fascism share the common trait of assigning people to lord over elected officials. Fascism assigned industrialists, and islam assigns theocratic figures.
    * Islam does not have a central figure and forms pockets of totalitarism. Nazism revolved around the Fuehrer (The Guide?).

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #106 - December 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on December 24, 2009, 01:19 AM
    True, there were big differences between his system and that of Marx (race and merit were fundamental values of his system). Nevertheless, when one looks at the stated aims of the nazis they are very much like a socialist agenda.  Hitler may have left capital in the hands of the industrialists but he nationalised their businesses and they were all directed by the party.  In reality there is no real entrepreneurship, the industrialists are simply workers themselves.


    That's like saying Chester may have touched little boys in their swimsuit areas but that doesn't make him a child molester. Not expropriating the capitalist class means not being socialist. Nazism/Fascism were syncretic ideologies that incorporated both socialist and capitalist ideas and were seen as a "third way" between the two at a time capitalism was failing, and anarchist and communists were rebelling against it. It promised stability to both workers and capitalists, which is why a good portion of both supported it. If it were truly socialism, the capitalists would have universally opposed it.

    Here's a way to simplify the analysis above-- if Henry Ford thinks it's not such a bad idea, then it's probably not socialism.
    fuck you
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #107 - December 27, 2009, 03:51 AM
    Quote from: billy on December 26, 2009, 04:16 PM

    Dualism is certainly an Islamic propensity. But that in itself is not enough to make it like Nazism.

    My problem with this line of thought is that it detracts from being accurate from Islams many flaws - which are manifold, and contextualised in a long history. Islam has enough self-incriminating moral flaws. You don't need to stretch comparisons to bring its inanity and cruelty to light.

    Oh, and what cheetah said, too ^^^


    When you view it within the context of the paganistic occult like theology behind Nazism - both talk about a pure people; the difference being in the case of Nazism there was the use of race rather than the purity that Islam talks about - but it is still purity none the less. Those who are Muslims/Aryans are the pure, the master race, the born and destined rulers of the world - those who are kaffir/non-Aryan are either only worthy of a lowly existence or should be expelled from the newly conqueror Muslim/Nazi land.

    I'm sure on further reflection can find more similarities.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #108 - December 27, 2009, 04:04 AM

    But it still doesn't illuminate in the way that Islam can and should be illuminated. You could just as easily say, Islam is like Khmer Rouge with Muhammad as Pol Pot. See what I mean? We can identify all sorts of touchstones and resonances. And given the thicket of history and politics of Nazism, with its own references, relevancies and collective memory and history, it distracts from the vital study and refutation of Islam that can be done from the standpoint of religion, and the actual history and theology of Islam itself. Its too damn sensationalist. Islam can be criticised on its own terms.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #109 - December 27, 2009, 04:09 AM
    They were both supremacist ideologies driven by a ruthless desire for growth.  

    Thats just about the only meaningful conclusion I can draw, but parallels they are, and constantly drummed into the followers pysche, both in the Quran & Mein Kampf.  

    Sensationalist or not, I think its a useful comparison to draw, when you are trying to understand how to deal with such a cult or future ones like it e.g. by definition, neither will be accepting of dissidents, so change from within is more difficult etc
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #110 - December 28, 2009, 08:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 27, 2009, 04:09 AM
    They were both supremacist ideologies driven by a ruthless desire for growth. 

    Thats just about the only meaningful conclusion I can draw, but parallels they are, and constantly drummed into the followers pysche, both in the Quran & Mein Kampf. 

    Sensationalist or not, I think its a useful comparison to draw, when you are trying to understand how to deal with such a cult or future ones like it e.g. by definition, neither will be accepting of dissidents, so change from within is more difficult etc


    Just be careful which Islam you're talking about since we all obviously know Islam has many different versions which essentially vary from believer to believer.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #111 - December 28, 2009, 08:28 PM
    I am not talking about the faith that the majority of Muslims follow (pick & mix version of the Quran), i was referring to Islam the ideology.

    I certainly appreciate that the personal version my mum chooses to follow is not too dangerous, however some of the things she has said in the past could certainly give Hitler a hard-on.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #112 - December 28, 2009, 08:34 PM
    So u feel drawing this comparison could wake Muslims up and more non-Muslims to realise what we are dealing with here in regards to traditional wahabbi Islam?

    Since most Muslims would regard Hitler's actions as dreadful I can understand the logic behind this but I think it could possibly anger more Muslims then help them realise the reality in truth.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #113 - December 28, 2009, 08:48 PM
    OK people lets not fucking bullshit ourselves, explain these pics:

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Images:Islamic_Nazism

    I have a friend who has the swastika and Hitler as a profile pic on messenger. I've called him on it but he shrugs it off, he's a muslim, and an arab. Calling him a moron wont help so what should I say, basically after I'm done if he still insists in having that pic he should feel like a moron. Mind you he hasn't had this pic for a while and its only for a few minutes, I think everybody else on his list would hate him for it. So I don't think he's fully comfortable with it. And maybe he's changed his mind.
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #114 - December 28, 2009, 08:50 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on December 28, 2009, 08:34 PM
    So u feel drawing this comparison could wake Muslims up and more non-Muslims to realise what we are dealing with here in regards to traditional wahabbi Islam?

    Since most Muslims would regard Hitler's actions as dreadful I can understand the logic behind this but I think it could possibly anger more Muslims then help them realise the reality in truth.

    No, I was not writing this for muslims, it was an ideological discussion between us.  

    Certainly little point of hitting muslims with charges of Nazism or paedophilia, however true it may be, as you'll get a knee-jerk reaction, but thats not the point - we were having a discussion amongst us non-believers  Huh?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #115 - December 28, 2009, 08:54 PM
    Quote
    "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion...The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"


    Quote
    "Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism (Islam), that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so."


    Are these quotes of Adolf Hitler accurate, anyone know?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #116 - December 28, 2009, 08:56 PM
    Should be easy to find? Mein Kemp might be in Google books? Search for Islam there?
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #117 - December 28, 2009, 08:58 PM
    Quote
    "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn?t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"


    This quote is from as good a first hand source as is possible, Albert Speer's 'Inside the Third Reich'

    He just had limp-dick syndrome. He admired the violent, aggressive aspect of Islam, but he also praises Japanese nationalism's compact with religion.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #118 - December 28, 2009, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 08:48 PM
    OK people lets not fucking bullshit ourselves, explain these pics:

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Images:Islamic_Nazism


    Explain what? There are Muslim Nazis-- there's your explanation. There are also Nazis who are Christians, neopagans, atheists, agnostics, weird quasi-Jewish/Christian cults like British Israelism and Christian Identity. Fuck, I wouldn't be surprised if there are Hindu and Buddhist Nazis out there somewhere. Neopaganism is particularly popular amongst neo-Nazis, but I don't think that necessarily means there's anything particular to neopaganism that makes it more ideologically suitable to Nazism than other religions.
    fuck you
  • Re: Inspiring words
     Reply #119 - December 28, 2009, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 08:56 PM
    Should be easy to find? Mein Kemp might be in Google books? Search for Islam there?


    Yeah I've just been googling but have not located the reference yet.

    Back to the discussion, I think nazism is so time / nation and historical specific that it just clouds more than it illuminates.

    Although on an ad hoc basis it might be interesting to mark resonances and links, Islam contains its own weaknesses and faults that condemn it completely - I think it destroys the credibility of critiques of Islam to take this angle - it becomes like Godwin's law, and is so wide a paradigm that it doesn't get to the specifics of what makes Islam what it is and what make it unique.

    Having said that, I think that Islamism, political Islam, Ummah nationalism can easily be said to have fascist qualities. And I don't doubt that Mo was tyrannical and could be viewed in the aftermath of the last century as a fascist, if you wanted to apply 20th Century and 21st Century templates of understanding to his life and era.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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