Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #60 - January 01, 2010, 11:20 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 31, 2009, 02:28 PM
I remember an atheist friend in high school confronted me with the rock question. I was a Muslimeen back then and answered it by saying that god can create a rock that he can't lift and he can also lift a rock that he can't lift because Allah subhanawatala isn't bound be logic. How close I was to the truth.

LOL. Ye i'm sure we all said shit back in the day which we would be totaslly embarrassed of now.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #61 - January 01, 2010, 11:38 PM

Those types of can be easily dismissed by saying God is wholly other. So "Rock" and "Lift" are meaningless to a God who is wholly other. So these types of question becomes like this "what is north of north pole?"...

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #62 - January 02, 2010, 01:13 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 08:46 AM
God is eternal, existed before time and after time will exist

God will be alive after the death of everything, ie after time

There is no "before/after time".
It's a contradiction of terms.

"before/after X" in this case means "during a time before/after X"

So: during a time before/after time?

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #63 - January 02, 2010, 08:40 AM

I think chapter 112 from the Quran probably sums it up as best as possible:-

Quote
al-Ikhl?s - The Purity

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #64 - January 02, 2010, 08:58 AM

Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 11:38 PM
Those types of can be easily dismissed by saying God is wholly other. So "Rock" and "Lift" are meaningless to a God who is wholly other. So these types of question becomes like this "what is north of north pole?"...

Not at all... It is simple, because they are actions.

step 1: Create a Rock
step 2: lift it (using magical powers or whatever).

Now, create a Rock that cant be lifted by your powers....That's the paradox

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superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #65 - January 02, 2010, 09:07 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 08:58 AM
Not at all... It is simple, because they are actions.

step 1: Create a Rock
step 2: lift it (using magical powers or whatever).

Now, create a Rock that cant be lifted by your powers....That's the paradox

When I was muslim, I was always told that the question itself was incorrect and logically inconsistent because of the way it's constructed.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #66 - January 02, 2010, 09:14 AM

How so?

The real problem is god is logically inconsistent

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #67 - January 02, 2010, 09:31 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 09:14 AM
How so?

The real problem is god is logically inconsistent

Not necessarily - it depends on whether one claims they know God exactly. The problem is that Muslims claim that the Qur'an is perfect and leaves out no details yet it took at least 200-300 years in conjunction with greek philosophy to lay down at least some rudimentary theology.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #68 - January 02, 2010, 09:36 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 09:14 AM
How so?

The real problem is god is logically inconsistent

What we were told in lessons on islamic theology went as following:-

1 - Can God create a rock

2 - Which he can't lift?

What was done is the sentence itself was broken down as logically inconsistent when applied to God. The sentence is examined in two parts.

1 - So in the first part the sentence refers to a positive attribute "create" which he has. So in the first instance the answer would be yes. Creating is an attribute of God.

2 - The second part is usually dismissed as being inconsistent, simply because the word "can't" is a negative attribute which doesn't apply to God by definition.

I think those who are familiar with islamic theology will be familiar with this and will usually dismiss this sentence as logically inconsistent, because as I said that negative attribute by definition doesn't apply to him. It would be like asking "Does got get tired?" By it's very definition, tiredness does not apply to God and is not a befitting attribute.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #69 - January 02, 2010, 10:01 AM

I still want to go back to the impossibility of Omniscience, but with omnipotence I still see it as a paradox.
You could then make god almighty, but not omnipotent, as omnipotence is a paradox.

Let me try and rephrase the question, so that it does not give a negative attribute.

Could god create a something , that is omnipotent?

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #70 - January 02, 2010, 10:17 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 10:01 AM
Could god create a something , that is omnipotent?

Again, it's a question of definition. Omnipotence is an attribute that solely belongs to God. So, in this case, the issue isn't coudn't but rather wouldn't. Again, they are word games and doesn't negate God's existence.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #71 - January 02, 2010, 10:23 AM

That is a fair answer to that, if he could but wouldnt.
Now, what about the problem of Omniscience?
I still maintain that the attribute itself is not possible.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #72 - January 02, 2010, 10:29 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on January 02, 2010, 09:36 AM
What we were told in lessons on islamic theology went as following:-

1 - Can God create a rock

2 - Which he can't lift?

What was done is the sentence itself was broken down as logically inconsistent when applied to God. The sentence is examined in two parts.

1 - So in the first part the sentence refers to a positive attribute "create" which he has. So in the first instance the answer would be yes. Creating is an attribute of God.

2 - The second part is usually dismissed as being inconsistent, simply because the word "can't" is a negative attribute which doesn't apply to God by definition.

I think those who are familiar with islamic theology will be familiar with this and will usually dismiss this sentence as logically inconsistent, because as I said that negative attribute by definition doesn't apply to him. It would be like asking "Does got get tired?" By it's very definition, tiredness does not apply to God and is not a befitting attribute.

That's an overly complex argument.

It's just easier to say that the concept of "a rock that cannot be lifted by somebody who can lift everything" is logically inconsistent.

It's like asking:
Can god create a square circle? Or bright darkness? Or divide by zero?

Can god do something that breaks logic?

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #73 - January 02, 2010, 10:34 AM

Quote
Can god create a square circle? Or bright darkness? Or divide by zero?

These things are simply words. A square circle would be a square not matter what, as it is only the actual shape that is significant, not the word or name for the shape

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #74 - January 02, 2010, 10:38 AM

And "a rock that cannot be lifted by someone who can lift anything (by definition)" is a contradiction in terms.
So it's also "simply words" that don't mean anything.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #75 - January 02, 2010, 10:43 AM

If there is a magic being that can lift anything as long as it exists, then nothing can be both existing and not-liftable-by-the-being-that-can-lift-everything.

So, since god can lift everything by definition of god...
Asking if god can create a rock he cannot lift is like asking if god can create a rock that exists and doesn't exist at once.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #76 - January 02, 2010, 10:44 AM

Not really...I dont follow.

Make 'Rock' mean whatever you want, its just a variable.
That is why I rephrased it as
Could god create a something , that is omnipotent?

but...I really want to get off the rock stuff, as I think the omniscience question is better

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #77 - January 02, 2010, 10:47 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on January 02, 2010, 10:43 AM
If there is a magic being that can lift anything as long as it exists, then nothing can be both existing and not-liftable-by-the-being-that-can-lift-everything.

So, since god can lift everything by definition of god...
Asking if god can create a rock he cannot lift is like asking if god can create a rock that exists and doesn't exist at once.

That is why it would be a paradox

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #78 - January 02, 2010, 10:55 AM

Ok, let's replace all the words.

The question can be generalized to:

Can X create an Y so that Y cannot be lifted by a Z that can lift everything that exists?

Now, let's take a closer look at Z:

Z, by its own definition, can lift everything that exists.
In other words:
If some thing exists, then such thing is liftable by Z.
This logically implies that:
Anything that is not liftable by Z, doesn't exist.

Now, let's take a closer look at Y:

You're defining Y so that it's not liftable by Z.
So, Y cannot possibly exist by definition of Y and Z.

Can X create an Y that cannot exist?
No, and it has nothing to do with the abilities of X.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #79 - January 02, 2010, 10:56 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 10:47 AM
That is why it would be a paradox

And that is why it's the same as asking if god can create a square circle, or bright darkness.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #80 - January 02, 2010, 11:04 AM

Quote
And that is why it's the same as asking if god can create a square circle, or bright darkness.

No, because those are not things that are defined on their own. What would the definition of a square circle or what would be a variable that woudl represent the idea...since we define what squares and circles are..a square circle would not be something we define as a circle..and I'm making myself dizzy

Basically, we are both saying that it is a paradox, which I am fine with, so then the answer then is would god create a paradox. Since the answer would, I guess, be no, that would negate the question.
I guess that is a good way to go with it, would you agree?

What are your thoughts on the impossibility of omniscience
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8063.msg198845#msg198845

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #81 - January 02, 2010, 11:46 AM

Quote from: Homer on January 02, 2010, 08:58 AM

Not at all... It is simple, because they are actions.

step 1: Create a Rock
step 2: lift it (using magical powers or whatever).

Now, create a Rock that cant be lifted by your powers....That's the paradox

the word "lift" and "weight" it is in the context of our material world.

They don't apply to a God.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #82 - January 02, 2010, 12:11 PM

So guys if you cant prove God doesn't exist why do you obsess about it. You might be right you might be wrong accept it and get a life!
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #83 - January 02, 2010, 12:15 PM

Quote
You might be right you might be wrong accept it and get a life!

You believe God exists - thats fine go and be happy and live your life :-)

You shouldn't be here.

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #84 - January 02, 2010, 12:19 PM

sorry dont you wish to have your beliefs challenged?
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #85 - January 02, 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote
sorry dont you wish to have your beliefs challenged?

But you "obviously" got a "life" - so why bother challenging our "beliefs" for ;-)

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #86 - January 02, 2010, 12:27 PM

I have my reasons. But surely the boot is on the other foot. On this site you generally attack religion and feel you know that it is bad etc etc. If you take such a clear position surely you should be able to defend it. If you don't have "proof" as you would put it wouldnt it be better to hold your counsel?
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #87 - January 02, 2010, 12:39 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 12:19 PM
sorry dont you wish to have your beliefs challenged?

we're waiting but you dont seem to be doing a very good job?

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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #88 - January 02, 2010, 12:42 PM

It is sufficient if you are humble enough to accept that it is your belief that there is no God.
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Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
Reply #89 - January 02, 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 12:27 PM
I have my reasons. But surely the boot is on the other foot. On this site you generally attack religion and feel you know that it is bad etc etc. If you take such a clear position surely you should be able to defend it. If you don't have "proof" as you would put it wouldnt it be better to hold your counsel?

who says we dont have proof? we have proof as in the quran. most of us believe the quran is manmade. THink you are getting confused with the concept of a supernatural creator.

That is impossible to prove, only because its impossible to prove an unscientific concept by sceintific means.

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