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 Topic: Fishy Verses

 (Read 1844 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Fishy Verses
     OP - December 28, 2009, 06:14 PM

    k, So recently what I'm doing is going through the scripture[Quran] again to gain a better understanding of it. A lot of the stuff just doesn't make sense. And I feel guilty over it, knowing in the back of the mind, the 'book' is not to be doubted. I'm Confused, Is This Normal?

    I'll post more, but this is what struck me at the hour and I figured maybe you guys can back my questions up here.

    Surah3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. thereof that is allegorical, . And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

    Question One: If I'm not mistaken we are to believe in the prior books sent right? The three books[bible and torah etc]? was it like trial and error thing for god? i.e, oh the first book didnt work out lemme try a second one, second wasn't quiet as good let me try the third one, and so on? and lemme preserve the fourth and final one [quran], because it sums up the prior-texts. [If you look at it up close it really says what it is, a collection of previous texts =/...wakeup call inits own no?]
    Question 2: Basic and fundamental? Most of Its just generalized stuff; The Whole Concept of hell/heaven and even GOD is generic, and isn't backed up by any solid evidence.
    If you ask someone religious to firm it, they normally give the reference to the book Huh?
    A Asks: What evidence do you have that god/heaven/hell exist?
    B Answers: --I Don't, but its in the book.
    Question 3: "seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah", There's a certain way to grasp the meanings? Should it not be your own interptation of what you believe the verse is saying?For Instance, The way I see it there are two sides to every story['verse']. Are we not to analysis, question or debate this stuff? The verse contradicts. There?s hidden meanings to it that only god knows?, If so why should we bother trying to understand it, to begin with. We'd be making assumptions if that?s the case.
    Question 4:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding" meaning people who don't question it, and follow it with a blind fold?

    This stuff gives me a major headache.  Over react

    "A donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey"-Sufi Proverb

    "Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening, no doubt, no awakening."-Zen Saying
  • Re: Fishy Verses
     Reply #1 - December 28, 2009, 06:58 PM

    The world 'allegorical' does not exist. The word used 'Motahabehat' means 'similar to each other'. Which can mean allegorical, but also can mean everything else that is 'similar'.


    Here is the word for word translation. There is minimal interpretation in the translation and hopefully you can build up an understanding closer to the original Arabic.

    هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

    He
    Who
    Descended
    on you
    the book
    from it
    verses (Mohkamat -> Decisive - Tight - Well Judged)
    they are
    from
    the mother
    of the book
    and
    other (I do not know why it does not say others since it refers to the verses)
    (Motashabehat - Similar)
    so then
    those
    in
    their hearts
    (Zi - inclination to split)
    so they follow
    what
    (Tashaboh - is similar)
    from it
    wishing
    Fitna
    and wishing
    its interpretation
    and
    no one knows
    its interpretation
    except
    allah
    and those
    entrenched
    in (knowledge/science)
    they say
    Amen
    with all
    that is
    from our Rabb
    and
    only those with understanding
    remember

    ==========================


    My interpretation of this verse is that allah descended some verses from 'the mother of the book', and other similar to them. those who desire Fitna, they will follow those similarities for the purpose of creating fitna.

    So far there is nothing here about the first books. Just that Allah is descending verses that could be construed as ambiguous. And that some people will follow the ambiguity for the purpose of creating fitna.

    Basically Mohammed was getting tired that people were telling him he is messing up the verses and/or abrogating himself. Also when he said something with multiple meanings (ambiguous), he hated when people would find a meaning he did not intend for or want. He just wanted them to stop bothering him.

    Reading this material can become significantly easier if you put yourself in Mohammed's mindframe. He took 'belief' as a choice. You either choose to believe him or not. Since 'proof' was not a concept he understood, he did not feel inclined to offer it and so would get very angry when people would 'choose' not to believe him.

    Once you choose to believe him, then everything in the book is right, if it is not right, then you change the world around his text, to make it right. Once I realized this is the intention of the writer, it became much easier for me to decypher the text.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Fishy Verses
     Reply #2 - December 29, 2009, 08:01 AM

    @Baal
     Afro

    You should do your own translation of the Quran Cheesy
  • Re: Fishy Verses
     Reply #3 - December 29, 2009, 08:12 AM

    With Tafsir  Cheesy

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
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