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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Should men have the right to have a baby aborted when they're not ready for it?
  • Yes - 10 (19.6%)
  • No - 41 (80.4%)
  • Total Voters: 51

 Topic: Men's right to abortions

 (Read 56004 times)
  • 12 3 ... 19 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Men's right to abortions
     OP - December 29, 2009, 06:56 PM

    I'm not talking about men being able to stop a woman from an abortion.

    I'm talking about men being able to make a woman to get one when she's pregnant with his baby.

    The reason is that, the man will have a responsibility to look after the child, pay for its school, clothes, etc, possibly sacrifice his education or career by having a baby when he's not ready.

    Even if a woman agrees to take 100% of the responsibility for the child, there will be a social backlash against the man, everyone will think of him as being 'bad' for not looking after his kid, etc.

    Further, when the child grows up, he will grow to hate his father for abandoning him and the father will not be happy with this knowledge.

    Women are known to sometimes lie about being on the pill to get pregnant when the husband/boyfriend doesn't want to make them pregnant. (I know some women who talk about doing that & threaten their husbands with it).

    Plus, since accidents happen, and in case of such an accident a woman has the right to abort the child, why doesn't the man also have the right to get the child aborted when he's not ready for the responsibility or simply does not want a child?

    Having the baby growing in a woman's uterus does not give her the right to force a man to become a father without his consent.

    Edit: To clarify, since everyone keeps bringing up using protection, let me add that accidents do happen if protection is used. And a clause can be added to this law saying that the man only has the right to abort the child if he took all precautions he could, such as using a condom or other birth control.

    Edit 2: After several days of thinking about this topic and the arguments given by others here I've changed my mind about this. Its the woman's body so its indeed her choice what she does with, whether she keeps the baby or aborts it.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #1 - December 29, 2009, 07:03 PM

    No.  You can't force a woman through a surgical procedure against her will, that sounds like something from the Stepford Wives, or North Korea.   If you're not ready for fatherhood use a condom.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #2 - December 29, 2009, 07:09 PM

    Condoms are not 100% and abortion isn't always a surgical procedure especially in the early stages! I've heard that there are other ways to abort such as pills, laser technology which doesn't hurt, etc.

    Its unfair that a man has to live in fear of getting someone pregnant and then being forced to live with a child, while a woman has no such fear because if she gets pregnant she can always get an abortion!

    Edit:

    Quote
    You can't force a woman through a surgical procedure against her will


    The surgical procedure will last 20-30 mins. You can't force a woman to go through that, but you can force the man to live a lifetime of :

    1) Unhappiness
    2) Frustration
    3) Anxiety
    4) Stress
    5) Guilt, if he abandons the child with/without the woman's consent?
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #3 - December 29, 2009, 07:16 PM

    Quote
    Condoms are not 100%


    They are a lot more effective than not using one and then whining about wicked women tricking you into fatherhood.

    Quote
    nd abortion isn't always a surgical procedure especially in the early stages!


    It is always a medical procedure which involves potential side effects, and no men should not have to dictate whether or not a woman is forced to undergo one.

    Quote
    And I've heard that there are other ways to abort such as pills, laser technology which doesn't hurt, etc.


    Only in the very early stages, and any dispute between the parents about whether or not an abortion should be had will likely rule out an early abortion.  Anyway, even abortifacent pills and other early stage techniques carry potential side effects for the woman.

    Quote
    Its unfair that a man has to live in fear of getting someone pregnant and then be forced to live with a child, while a woman has no such fear because if she gets pregnant she can always get an abortion!


    You don't seem to know what you're talking about.  Plenty of women - most, in fact - would see the prospect of having an abortion as quite frightening in itself.  As for the unfairness of it all - tough shit.  Its equally unfair that women aren't allowed to compete on equal terms with men in sports which involve physical strength, but both situations are ruled by human biology and no amount of social equality will ever change them.  Just learn to deal.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #4 - December 29, 2009, 07:25 PM

    Quote
    They are a lot more effective than not using one and then whining about wicked women tricking you into fatherhood.

    I do use a condom every time without fail. But the fact remains that a condom is not 100% and every man has that sword hanging over his head that the condom could break/leak and she could get pregnant. Why should we have to live with this fear?

    Quote
    Only in the very early stages, and any dispute between the parents about whether or not an abortion should be had will likely rule out an early abortion.

    Yes, but there should be a law saying that if a woman disputes an abortion and as a result cannot get an early abortion, it will be her responsibility and she would be made to get a surgical one in that case. This will cause most women to accept the man's rights and to go ahead and get an early abortion.

    Quote
    You don't seem to know what you're talking about.  Plenty of women - most, in fact - would see the prospect of having an abortion as quite frightening in itself.

    This is probably true but I'm not talking about their feelings, I'm talking about the facts. And the facts remain that women have the right to get accidental pregnancies aborted while men don't.

    Quote
    As for the unfairness of it all - tough shit.  Its equally unfair that women aren't allowed to compete on equal terms with men in sports which involve physical strength

    You can eaaasily live without being the #1 wrestler woman of the world and taking out arnold schwarznegger in an arm wrestling match, however a man cannot easily live having to support a child or live a life with guilt and stress if he abandons the child (although in many places the law forces him to pay child support). So please don't compare apples to oranges.

    Disadvantage of not being able to play sports: Feeling a little bad for a day or two

    Disadvantage of being forced to support a child or the guilt of abandoning one: A lifetime of anxiety or guilt, a sucky career, an unhappy life, and so on.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #5 - December 29, 2009, 07:33 PM

    Quote
    The surgical procedure will last 20-30 mins.


    It doesn't matter how long it lasts, you can't force a competent adult to undergo it against their will.

    Quote
    You can't force a woman to go through that, but you /can/ force the man to live a lifetime of :

    1) Unhappiness
    2) Frustration
    3) Anxiety
    4) Stress
    5) Guilt, if he abandons the child with/without the woman's consent?

     


    Nobody is forcing him to undergo those things.  

    Quote
    I do use a condom every time I have sex without fail. But the fact remains that a condom is not 100% and every man has that sword hanging over his head that the condom could break/leak and she could get pregnant. Why should we have to live with this fear?


    Every woman has that sword hanging over her head too, that's life.

    Quote
    This is probably true but I'm not talking about their feelings, I'm talking about the facts. And the facts remain that women have the right to get accidental pregnancies aborted while men don't.



    No men don't, and they never will have, thankfully.  The baby is growing inside the woman's body, not the man's, and no country outside a creepy dictatorship would take the decision about what happens in utero out of her hands and place it into his.

    Quote
    You can eaaasily live without being the #1 wrestler woman of the world and taking out arnold schwarznegger, however a man cannot easily live having to support a child or live a life with guilt and stress if he abandons the child (although in many places the law forces him to pay child support). So please don't compare apples to oranges.


    The woman faces all those consequences too.  We don't live in a Sharia state, women also have to support their own children, women suffer stress and guilt if they abandon their children, and frequently even when they're trying to raise them.

    Quote
    Disadvantage of not being able to play sports: Feeling a little bad for a day or two

    Disadvantage of being forced to support a child or the guilt of abandoning one: A lifetime of anxiety or guilt, a sucky career, an unhappy life, and so on.


    You missed the point of the comparison.  Both situations are "unfair" in the strictest sense of gender equality, and both will remain forever unfair in that same sense because of the biological realities of being human.  Its one of those things in life that's just tough shit, and none of your arguments from consequences will change that.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #6 - December 29, 2009, 07:51 PM

    Quote
    Nobody is forcing him to undergo those things.  

    Realistically & in practice he will be forced to go through all those things .First there are child support laws which he will have to comply with. He might have to sacrifice his career and happiness to take care of a child. If the woman agrees that he doesn't have to take care of the child, he will live with the knowledge that he has a baby whom he has abandoned and when the child grows up he would likely hate his father. This is a very tough feeling for a man and very much a forced one. With the knowledge of a child with your DNA growing up, its pretty much imposssible not to feel guilty if you abandon him for the sake of your career & personal happiness.

    Quote
    Every woman has that sword hanging over her head too, that's life.

    The sword which is hanging over the man's head is that the moment the woman gets pregnant, all his rights go out the door and it will be the woman who decides what to do, he has little to no say whatsoever. Whereas if the woman does get pregnant she has all the rights to get it aborted if she's not ready for it. Hence the sword hanging over the men's head inflicts a much deeper wound (which will last a lifetime) compared to the sword over the woman's head whose wound will only last the 1 hour it takes to get the abortion.

    Quote
    No men don't, and they never will have, thankfully.  The baby is growing inside the woman's body, not the man's, and no country outside a creepy dictatorship would take the decision about what happens in utero out of her hands and place it into his.

    Its the man's wallet from which everything from the labor surgery for the kid, to his diapers, to his education, and so on will be paid for the kid growing up inside the woman's uterus. And if he doesn't do that, its the man's body organs which will pay the price of the anxiety and constant guilt it would bring. How can you suggest that its not his decision & he has no rights in terms of this? The baby growing up inside her uterus does not give her the right to fuck up a man's life however she chooses to.

    Quote
    The woman faces all those consequences too.  We don't live in a Sharia state, women also have to support their own children, women suffer stress and guilt if they abandon their children, and frequently even when they're trying to raise them.

    Men have more child support laws in modern countries. And women don't have to abandon their children if they don't want them,  they can get an abortion anytime they choose to, whereas if she gets pregnant, the man has no rights to say if he doesn't want the child.

    Quote
    You missed the point of the comparison.  Both situations are "unfair" in the strictest sense of gender equality, and both will remain forever unfair in that same sense because of the biological realities of being human.  Its one of those things in life that's just tough shit, and none of your arguments from consequences will change that.


    The abortion is not a biological issue, its a social issue, because the child will be equally the man's as the woman's, and the consequences for having/not having an abortion are a lot compared to the consequences of not being able to beat men at football. Like I said above, having the baby in your uterus does not give a woman the right to fuck up a man's life.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #7 - December 29, 2009, 07:55 PM

    Condoms are not 100%


    That is load of nonsense.

    You will always hear this from chavvy teenagers who never seen one!

    oh my girlfriend got pregnant because condom burst!

    yea right!!! Even African Rhino on summer heat will not be able to rip one!!!!



    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #8 - December 29, 2009, 07:59 PM

    Should a man who chooses abortion but get's vetoed by the woman be forced to pay child support?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #9 - December 29, 2009, 08:00 PM

    Quote
    Realistically & in practice he will be forced to go through all those things .First there are child support laws which he will have to comply with. He might have to sacrifice his career and happiness to take care of a child. If the woman agrees that he doesn't have to take care of the child, he will live with the knowledge that he has a baby whom he has abandoned and when the child grows up he would likely hate his father. This is a very tough feeling for a man and very much a forced one. With the knowledge of a child with your DNA growing up, its pretty much imposssible not to feel guilty if you abandon him for the sake of your career & personal happiness.



    That is not a tenable argument for forced abortions.  Its an appeal to consequences which is a logical fallacy.

    Quote
    The sword which is hanging over the man's head is that the moment the woman gets pregnant, all his rights go out the door and it will be the woman who decides what to do, he has little to no say whatsoever. Whereas if the woman does get pregnant she has all the rights to get it aborted if she's not ready for it. Hence the sword hanging over the men's head inflicts a much deeper wound (which will last a lifetime) compared to the sword over the woman's head which would only last the 1 hour it takes to get the kid aborted.



    That's as inevitable as Venus Williams not being able to win the Men's Final at Wimbledon, because is growing inside her body and not his.  Plus, the potential side effects of an abortion can last a lifetime, especially if the abortion is forced.

    Quote
    Its the man's wallet from which everything from the labor surgery for the kid, to his diapers, to his education, and so on will be paid for the kid growing up inside the woman's uterus. And if he doesn't do that, its the man's body organs which will pay the price of the anxiety and constant guilt it would bring. How can you suggest that its not his decision & he has no rights in terms of this? The baby growing up inside her uterus does not give her the right to fuck up a man's life however she chooses to.


    Again, not a tenable argument for forced abortions.  Possibly an argument for changing the laws on child support, but not an argument to force women to undergo something against her will which will have potentially lifelong psychological and/or physical effects on her.

    Quote
    Men have more child support laws in regular countries. And women don't have to abandon their children if they don't want them,  they can get an abortion anytime they choose to, whereas if she gets pregnant, the man has no rights to say if he doesn't want the child.


    That's because human biology dictates that he can't be given the legal right to have the final say without legalising a truly obnoxious violation of women's rights to her own bodily integrity.  

    Quote
    The abortion is not a biological issue, its a social issue, because the child will be equally the man's as the woman's, and the consequences for having/not having an abortion are a lot compared to the consequences of not being able to beat men at football. Like I said above, having the baby in your uterus does not give a woman the right to fuck up a man's life.

     


    Abortion is a biological issue because the pregnancy is carried solely by the woman, and you are still missing the point of the comparison.  As for fucking up a man's life, its no more fucked up by an unwanted pregnancy than hers is likely to be, and considerably less fucked up than hers would be if she was forced to abort against her will.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #10 - December 29, 2009, 08:02 PM

    Imagine you have a baby developing inside of your body, liberated, now ask yourself does anyone else have a right what you should do with the baby? Does the woman who got you pregnant have a right to choose what you do with the baby ultimately? Sure she can have a say and input etc, but would you let her make the choice as to what you do with your body?

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #11 - December 29, 2009, 08:06 PM

    Should a man who chooses abortion but get's vetoed by the woman be forced to pay child support?


    I think yes because you should taken precaution against pregnancy. It would act as a deterence perhaps.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #12 - December 29, 2009, 08:07 PM

    Quote
    Imagine you have a baby developing inside of your body, liberated, now ask yourself does anyone else have a right what you should do with the baby? Does the woman who got you pregnant have a right to choose what you do with the baby ultimately? Sure she can have a say and input etc, but would you let her make the choice as to what you do with your body?


    If its the woman who will be primarily responsible for the welfare of the child and for lifetime guilt if she doesn't meet her 'responsibilities', of course. She has more at stake than I do with a 30 minute painless laser operation. I would say it is her decision.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #13 - December 29, 2009, 08:09 PM

    That is load of nonsense.

    You will always hear this from chavvy teenagers who never seen one!

    oh my girlfriend got pregnant because condom burst!

    yea right!!! Even African Rhino on summer heat will not be able to rip one!!!!


    Are you suggesting that no one has ever gotten pregnant while using a condom?
    OK, add a condition to this law, if a man wears a condom and takes every possible precaution and still gets the woman pregnant, then he will have the right to get the baby aborted. If he doesn't wear a condom, he doesn't have this right. Fine with me.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #14 - December 29, 2009, 08:11 PM

    How about just not having sex until you are ready to have a baby?

    If you don't like that sword hanging over your head, then get your neck off the chopping block.

    No a man should not ever have the right to decide what to do to a womans body.  Roll Eyes


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #15 - December 29, 2009, 08:15 PM

    Quote
    That is not a tenable argument for forced abortions.  Its an appeal to consequences which is a logical fallacy.


    The consequences which are 100% likely to occur and have been observed in many cases, so how is this not a tenable argument? The argument for women being able to abort a child whereas men are not allowed to stop them, is also based on the consequences.

    Quote
    Abortion is a biological issue because the pregnancy is carried solely by the woman, and you are still missing the point of the comparison.  As for fucking up a man's life, its no more fucked up by an unwanted pregnancy than hers is likely to be, and considerably less fucked up than hers would be if she was forced to abort against her will.


    Simply growing the baby in her body does not make it a biological issue. It has long term effects on the man as well. Her life is not fucked up by an unwanted pregnancy because she can get it aborted at any time she chooses. Women get abortions every day and go on to live happy lives. What negative effects are you talking about?
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #16 - December 29, 2009, 08:19 PM

    How about just not having sex until you are ready to have a baby?

    If you don't like that sword hanging over your head, then get your neck off the chopping block.

    No a man should not ever have the right to decide what to do to a womans body.  Roll Eyes


    Easy for you to say - why don't you try it with millions of years of evolution urging you to spread your seed?

    No woman should ever have the right to decide what to do with a man's life either.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #17 - December 29, 2009, 08:20 PM

    If its the woman who will be primarily responsible for the welfare of the child and for lifetime guilt if she doesn't meet her 'responsibilities', of course. She has more at stake than I do with a 30 minute painless laser operation. I would say it is her decision.



    You've no idea do you? There can be so much psychological effect that's attached to this and you act as if it's like 'nothing', just clipping of a nail, sure. It's the woman's body-she chooses, but it's the law you should be wanting to change, not the right of the woman to do what she wants with her body.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #18 - December 29, 2009, 08:21 PM

    Are you suggesting that no one has ever gotten pregnant while using a condom?


    It is impossible. Unless sperms have suddenly evolved the ability to penetrate not only the egg but latex rubber!!!

    Quote
    OK, add a condition to this law, if a man wears a condom and takes every possible precaution and still gets the woman pregnant, then he will have the right to get the baby aborted.


    It will be an accident. And we pay for our accidents don't we?

    Quote
    If he doesn't wear a condom, he doesn't have this right. Fine with me.


    There chappy. You are on the right track...the Track of Taking Responsibility for your actions.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #19 - December 29, 2009, 08:21 PM

    What if a woman drugs a man and then has the man's sperm surgically removed and inserted into her to become pregnant? Does he have a right then?

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #20 - December 29, 2009, 08:22 PM

    What an incredibly stupid idea. I think Cheetah's said all that needs to be said.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #21 - December 29, 2009, 08:23 PM

    Quote
    The consequences which are 100% likely to occur and have been observed in many cases, so how is this not a tenable argument? The argument for women being able to abort a child whereas men are not allowed to stop them, is also based on the consequences.


    No, it isn't, its based on her right to bodily integrity.

    Quote
    Simply growing the baby in her body does not make it a biological issue.


    Yes, it does.  There is no way for the responsibility of pregnancy, childbirth and the potential side effects of both to be shared between the man and the woman, and no amount of social equality will change that.  Ditto for abortion.  That's why the final say is given to the individual who has to face those responsibilities and consequences.

    Quote
    It has long term effects on the man as well. Her life is not fucked up by an unwanted pregnancy because she can get it aborted at any time she chooses. Women get abortions every day and go on to live happy lives. What sort of negative effects are you talking about?


    A woman's life can be very easily fucked up by an unwanted pregnancy.  She could be against abortion on religious/ethical grounds, she could go ahead with it and then regret it when it was too late to turn back, she could have an abortion and suffer physical side effects, (including potential lifelong infertility), or psychological side effects of guilt, stress, depression.  

    These are the risks we all, men and women, take when they become sexually active.  Like Berbs said, if you don't like that sword over your head then take your neck off the chopping block.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #22 - December 29, 2009, 08:25 PM

    And if the laws changed and fine and dandy for you, and then you're like 'but no i don't want the guilt etc' then tough shit, should stop having sex then if you want to avoid  100% the risk of having a baby. She's taking a risk of becoming pregnant by having sex too you know? both parties are taking a risk because there's no 100% risk avoidance.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #23 - December 29, 2009, 08:26 PM

    What if a woman drugs a man and then has the man's sperm surgically removed and inserted into her to become pregnant? Does he have a right then?


    that would be classed as rape wont it?

    and we have punishment for rape don't we?


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #24 - December 29, 2009, 08:26 PM

    What if a woman drugs a man and then has the man's sperm surgically removed and inserted into her to become pregnant? Does he have a right then?

    No but he should be given the right not to pay child support.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #25 - December 29, 2009, 08:28 PM

    Quote from: liberated
    Easy for you to say - why don't you try it with millions of years of evolution urging you to spread your seed?


    She has millions of years of evolution urging her to reproduce too.  She's the same species as you, remember?  Roll Eyes

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #26 - December 29, 2009, 08:29 PM

    that would be classed as rape wont it?

    and we have punishment for rape don't we?

    He said the sperm is surgically removed. I don't think that counts as rape however it is still a crime nonetheless.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #27 - December 29, 2009, 08:36 PM

    OK, what if your criminally insane crack-head sister knocked you out and surgically removed your sperm to make herself pregnant and due to the incest factor and crack the ultrasound revealed that the fetus had 4 arms and a tail?

    Just thinkin outside the box.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #28 - December 29, 2009, 08:38 PM

    It is the man who bears the brunt if the child is born.

    1) Child support
    2) Lifetime guilt if he abandons the child, especially as the man grows older and the child begins to mature.

    Yes, the child grows in the woman's body but it is the man primarily responsible for the child's welfare after the kid has grown beyond the need for breastfeeding (and even then it is the man who works during the woman's pregnancy and afterwards).

    Women should not have the right to fuck up a man's life. Period. A woman feels psychological trauma if she's forced to get an abortion which lasts for usually a month or so, an year max, but a man goes through psychological trauma for his lifetime if he's forced to live with a child. Don't the man's feelings count for anything? Yes they do, and moreso than the woman's since the man is the primary stakeholder in the kid's life.
  • Re: Men's right to abortions
     Reply #29 - December 29, 2009, 08:39 PM

    Quote
    OK, what if your criminally insane crack-head sister knocked you out and surgically removed your sperm to make herself pregnant and due to the incest factor and crack the ultrasound revealed that the fetus had 4 arms and a tail?

    Just thinkin outside the box.


    Doesn't matter what bizarre scenario you dream up, Bob, there's no getting around the fact that you're arguing for forced abortions.  No, it is never acceptable to force someone to undergo surgery against their will.  End of.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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