Men's right to abortions

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Men's right to abortions
Reply #540 - October 12, 2014, 01:18 PM

Quote from: NYerInSaudi on October 12, 2014, 01:07 PM
Imagine you are 45 year old man. You've been divorced for 3 years because your wife decided that she didn't want to have children, but you did. You started a relationship with a young woman and a few months intothe relationship she got pregnant. You are financially and emotionally stable. You want to have children. She tells you she doesn't want to keep the baby because she just got her law degree and didn't want to derail her career when it was just starting. You offer to take full responsibility for the child and provide her with legal documents stating so. You even promise her access to the child whenever she wishes. She says she can't handle that and still aborts.

It's not a typical case where some young kids got a little too happy and oops a positive test.

It doesn't make a difference.
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Reply #541 - October 12, 2014, 01:26 PM

Most 45 year old men who start a relationship with a young woman after a divorce would be grateful to be in a relationship with a young woman in the first place.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #542 - October 12, 2014, 01:59 PM

Throwing virtual roses at Ishina's feet.

I get what you're saying, NY (by the way, if you're really in KSA, you're missing some cold and rainy weather back here), and it makes sense on the most simple level, but as was pointed out to you before, the devil is in the details. You have an appreciation for the emotions of both parties, but only superficially. The situation of the woman and the man in that early stage in question is not the same. The demands are not the same. Both the man or the woman may decide they're glad this happened and they're ready for a child all the same, but everything else is worlds away, and this is what you're not fully accounting for.

Besides, let me ask you this: imagine I found out my birth control failed this month, and I was pregnant. I'm telling you right now that there's no way I'd want to keep the kid. In fact, I told that to my husband before we were even married. Kids are off the table, at the very least until I've got myself together, and graduated, and gotten rid of some of this student loan debt, gotten some stability. I'm not sure if I ever want one period. And he agreed.

Now, earlier this week, we found a particularly nasty woods-dwelling spider living in our shoe closet, and we could never catch him, and the husband started calling him "closet spider." When I finally got the opportunity to mash closet spider up real nice, I already kind of liked the disgusting little thing, and so I tried and failed to catch him again, and he's still at large.

So imagine I'm pregnant, just the early weeks, and the husband changes his mind and decides, no, you're having this kid. Too bad. Give him to me when you're done making him. It'll be like 9 months of inconvenience, and you'll be right back to normal. Let's pretend the 9 months flew by without complications, I got to keep doing my own thing, and my work and school performance didn't suffer one bit.

Considering my misplaced affection for a mindless creepy-crawly just because I had thought about him for too long, do you sincerely think that I'd have even the remotest chance of handing over the kid and signing away the rights after 9 months of my entire body doing what it was designed to do and making me feel attached to it? Do you think this would be easy and without consequence for most women to do? For a great deal of us, if we continue on with the pregnancy, our lives after will be irreparably changed. It just ain't as simple as you're making it sound.
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Reply #543 - October 12, 2014, 02:02 PM

Quote from: lua on October 12, 2014, 01:59 PM
Throwing virtual roses at Ishina's feet.

I am getting no love this morning.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #544 - October 12, 2014, 02:14 PM

Oh, King of the Pub Regulars, you know you're good.
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Reply #545 - October 12, 2014, 02:17 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 12, 2014, 02:02 PM
I am getting no love this morning.

Quote from: lua
Oh, King of the Pub Regulars, you know you're good.

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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Reply #546 - October 12, 2014, 02:29 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 12, 2014, 12:59 PM
THAT IS IT...PERIOD...

the only thing others could do is suggest /help medically, emotionally or other wise..

i like the way your phone or pc auto corrected my lazy punctuation lol..
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Reply #547 - October 12, 2014, 06:03 PM

Yes, I really am in KSA...Riyadh actually. I really don't like it here, at all.

Anyway, I understand everyone's opinion/view here. I am simply voicing mine. I do not feel that the decision should solely be the woman's. If this is the case, then I feel that men should be able to legally withdrawl any responsibility to the unwanted pregnancy before it becomes a born child. If the man can't be a father when he has the opportunity to because the woman chose to abort against his wishes then a man shouldn't be forced to be a father against his will because the woman chose not to abort against his wishes. It's completely one sided. Biology aside, it's simply unfair.

I stated that the order to forfeit parental rights could be nullified permanently and irreversibly if the parents married. So it's not a one and done thing.

It seems unfair to force a woman to carry to term and birth a child she didn't want. Yes. It is also unfair to kill a child needlessly when the father is capable and willing to raise and care for it. It seems unfair to simply tell a guy that "hey you did the deed and now you have to take care of that baby.", when a woman in the same situation has the option to chose.

To say a 45 year old man is lucky to have a young woman after a divorce is very innacurate. This could be a well to do, fit and very attractive man that any young woman would be so lucky to have.

Also, simply setting aside 1 day per month for 7 months and then a few days per month for 2 months is not going to disrupt a new graduates career. It's the maternity leave, days off for sickness, daycare closings, doctor appointments, etc that take too much time away from a blossoming career. The man is offering to remove all of that burden and still allow the mother full access to the child in trade for her not to abort so he can have his chance to be the father he wanted to be in his previous marriage. He's a grown ass man trying to stand up and do what's right and father his child while removing all the burden of raising the child.

These are all hypothetical any way. I stand with my views: a woman should not be forced to abort a child, if a man wants the abortion and took proper precautions (ie birth control, condoms...) to avoid the pregnancy the he should not be forced into raising or supporting a child he didn't want. He should be legally able to forfeit all parental rights and have his case heard by a judge. If a man does not want an unplanned pregnancy terminated and is able to financially support and raise the child and accepts the financial burden if the prenatal care, birth and post natal care then he should be allowed to have a say and have his case heard before a judge.

At any rate I don't forsee the courts filling with cases of men ddemanding a woman be denied an abortion. So i think that's most likely a non-issue vs. Men being forced to man up because they got someone pregnant.
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Reply #548 - October 12, 2014, 06:05 PM

Perhaps if these legalities existed there would be less casual sex, lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and all the other things that fall into the mix.
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Reply #549 - October 12, 2014, 06:29 PM

Quote from: NYerInSaudi on October 12, 2014, 06:03 PM
If a man does not want an unplanned pregnancy terminated and is able to financially support and raise the child and accepts the financial burden if the prenatal care, birth and post natal care then he should be allowed to have a say and have his case heard before a judge.

So in your hypothetical world, could a man force a teenager to drop everything and have his child?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #550 - October 12, 2014, 07:18 PM

If a person does not want to have a child do not have sex. If a person wants to avoid unwanted pregnancies do not have sex. It seems like we make a ton of excuses for people not showing better judgement. Also keep in mind the mothers are often put into a horrible position with children outside of marriage. Many need to fight for basic child support. This goes back to the fact that in the past men often could just deny the child and it was enough for society. We could rarely prove parentage of the father. Mothers are still required to prove parentage these days. It is a process which takes time and money both of which is a rare commodity for the mother.

I understand many want men to have some say in abortion. Well when men are capable of bring a child to term they can. Until then there is nothing to be done. If a father's right to pro/con abortion is granted these mother's become no more than rental space. This sets back women's rights decades.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #551 - October 12, 2014, 07:21 PM

Quote from: NYerInSaudi on October 12, 2014, 06:05 PM
Perhaps if these legalities existed there would be less casual sex, lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and all the other things that fall into the mix.

Why on earth would you want less casual sex?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #552 - October 12, 2014, 07:29 PM

This would require a lot of rules and exceptions, no doubt. How old was this man? How old was this teenager? Was the sex even considered legal or statutory rape? In any incident of sexual assault/rape committed by the male that would nullify any aspect of parental rights in my opinion. It has to be legal and consentual with a form of birth control used that failed to fit my reasoning behind a woman being denied the right to abort.

If we're talking a 19 year old and a 40 year old, then, yes, if the man is financially and mentally stable and agrees to completely support and raise the child wwithout any help from the bio mom and agrees to pay all prenatal, birth and post natal care, then yes.

Every day women and girls are talked into carrying a baby to term and putting the child up for adoption. Why would it be so bad to do the same only giving the child to its biological father who clearly wants to have the child in his life.

You see, this would all be a legal matter. Legal matters are not free and not typically easy like renewing your license online. The man would have to be willing to put forth the effort, time and money to even get an abortion denied medically.
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Reply #553 - October 12, 2014, 07:32 PM

[qdo author=Ishina link=topic=8079.msg788612#msg788612 date=1413141693]
Why on earth would you want less casual sex?
[/quote]

Promiscuity? Is that a better word? Basically, I mean people just randomly jumping in the sack and not thinking about the consequences.

If having Sex had bigger repercussions in the event of unplanned pregnancy, perhaps people (especially young people) would be more cautious about who they sleep with, more diligent with their birth control methods and STD prevention methods.
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Reply #554 - October 12, 2014, 07:36 PM

In the animal kingdom even if an animal is forced into sex she bears and raises whatever offspring are produced without choice. Since we are above the mentality of wild animals perhaps we should be more cautious with sex and hold ourselves more accountable.
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Reply #555 - October 12, 2014, 07:39 PM

That's just using pregnancy as punishment, though. There are moral ramifications of using children as leverage or as a means to an end.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #556 - October 12, 2014, 07:55 PM

I suppose you could see it that way. Being forced to pay child support, health insurance, private school tuition, unexpected large expenses such as braces, surgery, etc could be viewed as a form of punishment as well. My old neighbor receives $900 per month in child support for her daughter, the father provides her medical insurance and pays half of her private school tuition. He also pays half of her extra curricular activities. She has NEVER seem her father because he said he didn't want to have children and my neighbor would not abort. He told her "it's me or the baby.". His punishment for having Sex with the woman he was with for 3 years, who was on birth control at the time, has been 16 years of child support at $900 per month, medical insurance, tuition, etc. And she's already visiting universities so he'll still be paying support even after she turns 18. Seems like a steep price to pay when you told the person whom you were in a relationship with that you did not want kids and took measures to prevent it only to have an unintended pregnancy with a woman who morally would not ever have an abortion.
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Reply #557 - October 12, 2014, 08:06 PM

Quote from: NYerInSaudi on October 12, 2014, 07:55 PM
I suppose you could see it that way.

What way did you mean it?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #558 - October 12, 2014, 08:09 PM

That pregnancy is being used as punishment. I don't see it as punishing the woman, but more as what must happen in order to prevent a child from being aborted. There are only 2 options: abort or carry to term.
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Reply #559 - October 12, 2014, 08:24 PM

No, I mean, you said you want to use forcing pregnancy to term punitively to stop casual sex. You spoke about repercussions for actions. But forced birth as a repercussion, when abortion is available, is a consciously inflicted repercussion by you - in other words: punishment. It is not an unavoidable consequence of actions, since abortion is available. It is a punitive intervention into events by you. And quite a spiteful one at that, given how considerable a burden full term pregnancy and childbirth is.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #560 - October 12, 2014, 09:23 PM

I'm not intending it to spiteful. I simply don't agree with men being removed from that decision.
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Reply #561 - October 12, 2014, 09:43 PM

I get that you're voicing your opinion, NY. It's just also my opinion that you're wrong. No animosity between us, hopefully.

Anyway, yes, life is awfully unfair, but this is one instance in which the parties are not equal and can never be equal. The situations are not equal and can never be equal. It sounds to me that you know that there is something very terrible about forcing a woman to undergo a pregnancy, and I'm a little sad that you, who has admittedly had some tough pregnancies, would take this stance for other women.

In your not so nuanced attempt to make things even between the two parties, you've put one at a severe--and I mean severe--disadvantage in all ways. If the man contends with an unwanted pregnancy, he gets to say he wants the child, or walk away with a clean slate. A clean, sparkling white slate. With the woman, she can decide to keep the kid, or she can be forced to carry and deliver it, and deal with the consequences of all of that and everything that comes after.

You're completely disregarding the stresses and changes to a woman during and after pregnancy. You have nothing to say about mental fitness, nothing to say about what psychological issues she could encounter being forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy. The fact that they'd have to go to court to force her doesn't make it any better. Why would it?

If the end result is that a girl could be forced to carry a child or face prosecution, even in instances (and surely you will admit this would happen) where the man is hoping to either punish her or keep her in his life when she was ready to leave, you have frankly not only compensated for the comparatively minor sufferings of men in the status quo, but you've given them extraordinary power to abuse, put women at a severe disadvantage, and, if even one girl is forced to undergo this and suffers tremendously, you'd have launched us face first into inhumanity.

By the by, I tend not to agree with drastic legal punishments to discourage social behaviors that you do not agree with. You live in KSA, so you know the kind I'm talking about. A lot of people like to play that same card with chopping off the hands of a thief. So severe, they say, that no one would ever steal again, so it doesn't matter that it's barbaric!...But let's be honest. People will steal again. And it is still barbaric, whether it is happening to one man or scores of them.
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Reply #562 - October 13, 2014, 12:33 PM

Quote
Promiscuity? Is that a better word? Basically, I mean people just randomly jumping in the sack and not thinking about the consequences.

If having Sex had bigger repercussions in the event of unplanned pregnancy, perhaps people (especially young people) would be more cautious about who they sleep with, more diligent with their birth control methods and STD prevention methods.

Is something wrong with human sexuality? I'm just assuming that as obviously people think about STDs and pregnancy.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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