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 Topic: Some questions about evolution

 (Read 53980 times)
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  • Some questions about evolution
     OP - December 30, 2009, 01:49 AM

    I've been doing some research about evolution and I'm having a few doubts, would love for someone here to clear them up.

    1) Addition of information to the genome. How could it be that the Homo Erectus who had a brain size about half our size had their brain size doubled in us, with billions of extra neurons added? Could a single mutation of the DNA be enough for such a large change to occur? Secondly, what about the new features added to an organism, like the ability of the human eye to see colors, the wings added to the birds, etc? Where does the knowledge to create these new organs come from?

    2) My understanding is that a random mutation causes a change in a species to occur, and then natural selection helps spreading this change out and eventually speciation occurs where the ancestor species and the new species can no longer reproduce.

    How could random mutations have been so successful to consistently produce the various very complex traits found in the species? E.g wings, long neck of the giraffe, stripes of the zebra, claws and the strength of lions & tigers which make them more effective than smaller cats, etc?

    3) How did random mutations helped in the evolution from the earliest bi-polar apes (e.g Lucy) to homo erectus, to human beings, etc? Was it just random mutations that caused homo erectus to lose their body hair, or was there a controlled process behind it which knew that less hair would be more beneficial? Please clarify.

    Thanks.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #1 - December 30, 2009, 02:49 AM

    If you want to understand how those DNAs came about, then you have to learn about Abiogenesis.

    Random Mutations such as wings, long neck and such things are all because of Natural Selection. The ability of a species to naturally adapt to their environment for survivability. These takes years and years long.

    I remember in my genetics and evolution class our teacher showing a evolutionary process of how the eye came about in a certain Species. It was very interesting. You see the earlier species didnt have it, then you saw a different generation some what remotely having an eye, then later generation having a fully developed eye.

    What you have to understand is, one random mutation just didnt create a huge neck for a giraffe. It was one mutation after another over the years of different generation to where we see the long neck now

    I tried to answer you question in terms of the GIST. I dont know how much i helped
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #2 - December 30, 2009, 02:56 AM

    I dont believe in Natural Evolution, i only believe Evolution by genetic modification made by something or someone intelligence / with conscious, not naturally happen to evolve like Monkey naturally become Human for example  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #3 - December 30, 2009, 03:04 AM

    I dont believe in Natural Evolution, i only believe Evolution by genetic modification made by something or someone intelligence / with conscious, not naturally happen to evolve like Monkey naturally become Human for example  Roll Eyes


    Evolution is not about that. Monkeys don't naturally become Humans. I don't know why people keep saying that.

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #4 - December 30, 2009, 03:07 AM

    Good, cos if primates were said as Human ancestors it's because Darwin wanted to be a Monkey so much  Cheesy  thnkyu
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #5 - December 30, 2009, 03:10 AM

    I dont believe in Natural Evolution, i only believe Evolution by genetic modification made by something or someone intelligence / with conscious, not naturally happen to evolve like Monkey naturally become Human for example  Roll Eyes


    no that is Christian or Theist propaganda to defame Evolution

    We came from a COMMON ANCESTOR of primates. We did not come from Apes. Monkeys share about 93% of their Genes with Humans
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #6 - December 30, 2009, 03:13 AM

    no that is Christian or Theist propaganda to defame Evolution


    That's not Theist propaganda. That's Creationist propaganda. I'm a theist and don't believe in Creationism.

    tea and cake or death!!!

    "Dear Josh, we came by to fuck you, but you were not home. Therefore... you are gay."  Ghost World
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #7 - December 30, 2009, 03:13 AM

    Yes, and i dont believe that evolution happen naturally but to me it makes more sense that it was genetic modification made by something with intelligence whether it was god, aliens, jin, or human being.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #8 - December 30, 2009, 03:15 AM

    Well it happens regardless of what you believe.  dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #9 - December 30, 2009, 03:15 AM

    Good, cos if primates were said as Human ancestors it's because Darwin wanted to be a Monkey so much  Cheesy  thnkyu


    You are kope and I claim my $5.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #10 - December 30, 2009, 03:16 AM

    Wuts a Kope ?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #11 - December 30, 2009, 03:20 AM

    Someone who used to post here. You sound suspiciously like him.  grin12

    BTW, this forum doesn't recognise Sterling. I hope the exchange rate is good.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #12 - December 30, 2009, 03:22 AM

    If you want to understand how those DNAs came about, then you have to learn about Abiogenesis.

    Random Mutations such as wings, long neck and such things are all because of Natural Selection. The ability of a species to naturally adapt to their environment for survivability. These takes years and years long.

    I remember in my genetics and evolution class our teacher showing a evolutionary process of how the eye came about in a certain Species. It was very interesting. You see the earlier species didnt have it, then you saw a different generation some what remotely having an eye, then later generation having a fully developed eye.

    What you have to understand is, one random mutation just didnt create a huge neck for a giraffe. It was one mutation after another over the years of different generation to where we see the long neck now

    I tried to answer you question in terms of the GIST. I dont know how much i helped


    But whats perpexling is how so many successful random variations could have happened. If they were all random, how did they successfully work towards creating that organ in each iteration?  Huh?. Plus, how did the genome get the knowledge of how to build the complex structure like the eyes etc in the first place? Someone please clarify...
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #13 - December 30, 2009, 03:26 AM

    @Pano : noooo.. im not him,... im a her, and this is my only nickname on CEMB.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #14 - December 30, 2009, 03:39 AM

    and this is my only nickname on CEMB.


    sure... hehe

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #15 - December 30, 2009, 03:48 AM

     Thread jacked
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #16 - December 30, 2009, 03:59 AM

    But whats perpexling is how so many successful random variations could have happened. If they were all random, how did they successfully work towards creating that organ in each iteration?  Huh?. Plus, how did the genome get the knowledge of how to build the complex structure like the eyes etc in the first place? Someone please clarify...


    Liberated for you to get a better answer, you would have to ask a Evolutionist or Geneticist.

    Atheists are knowledgeable in generality of Evolution but you have specific questions which I dont know the answer to
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #17 - December 30, 2009, 06:59 AM

    Here you go, Liberated. This will explain how you got here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8asQkegV_wk

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #18 - December 30, 2009, 07:07 AM

    I dont believe in Natural Evolution, i only believe Evolution by genetic modification made by something or someone intelligence / with conscious, not naturally happen to evolve like Monkey naturally become Human for example  Roll Eyes

    Any proof or white paper on this, or this is just a belief of yours that is contrary to the white papers and proof we know so far?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #19 - December 30, 2009, 07:36 AM

    I've been doing some research about evolution and I'm having a few doubts, would love for someone here to clear them up.

    1) Addition of information to the genome. How could it be that the Homo Erectus who had a brain size about half our size had their brain size doubled in us, with billions of extra neurons added? Could a single mutation of the DNA be enough for such a large change to occur?

    No. multiple mutations over a long time. Brain went from 400 cc to about (1100cc?) over a long time. Elephants since 1925 had been growing smaller and smaller tusks, till now we have elephants that grow no tusks whatsoever. After a while, we will get more an more elephants that will grow no tusks. Once people stop killing them for tusks, it is highly probably that the elephants will grow their tusks again, unless too much time has passed with the elephants growing no tusks.

    Secondly, what about the new features added to an organism, like the ability of the human eye to see colors, the wings added to the birds, etc? Where does the knowledge to create these new organs come from?

    Knowledge is not the correct word. But let's use it for the purpose of this. Most of the knowledge comes from past DNA in the species.

    Certain traits have a range. Some do not. Skin can have a range of colors. Can have a range of patterns like small dots and large dots. Size is another one that often falls in a range. Somehow, the inside of our organs is almost always the same color. Livers look the same. There just was no purpose for livers to change colors.

    So experiments tells us that, for a fish that has dots on its skin. If the fish was to have its offpsring split, some placed with big rocks, some placed with small rocks, then 99.99% of the offspring, will either develop big dots to adapt to big rocks, or small dots to adapt to small rocks. But it would be unknown and unpredictable, if, and when, any will develop something completely new like 'bony ridges' to mimic stones, or even the ability to lick extra food from the stones. The last Two traits might, or might not happen. Even if beneficial to the fish, it still might or might not happen. No guarantees on new features. Only guarantee on existing features.

    2) My understanding is that a random mutation causes a change in a species to occur, and then natural selection helps spreading this change out and eventually speciation occurs where the ancestor species and the new species can no longer reproduce.

    yes. natural selection = manual selection in the case of breeding, sexual selection, survival selection and the other types of selection.

    How could random mutations have been so successful to consistently produce the various very complex traits found in the species? E.g wings, long neck of the giraffe, stripes of the zebra, claws and the strength of lions & tigers which make them more effective than smaller cats, etc?

    Because we observed small changes in the lab from one parent to its kids. Certain traits were already programmed in the specie, but every now and then, something new and completely novel takes hold. Generally speaking though, random mutations causes death and disabilities.

    3) How did random mutations helped in the evolution from the earliest bi-polar apes (e.g Lucy) to homo erectus, to human beings, etc? Was it just random mutations that caused homo erectus to lose their body hair, or was there a controlled process behind it which knew that less hair would be more beneficial? Please clarify.

    Your Second point answered this question. Mutation is random, Natural selection is not. Natural selection is a very cruel picker as well.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #20 - December 30, 2009, 10:19 AM

    Liberated it may help to think through evolution in a slightly different way. It is very difficult to comprehend timescales when pondering upon evolution. A term that is really important is "Cumulative Selection"

    Imagine a process that takes millions of years. In this process, a tiny almost insignificant mutation occurs. This mutation may or may not be beneficial. If it is, it will survive. If not, the change will not survive. The vast majority of mutations do not survive. Now if the mutation does survive, then over an incredibly long time period, it can further improve over a vast number of steps. This is the process of cumulative selection. A series of incredibly small changes building upon the advantages of the previous mutation.

    It is also very easy to imagine that evolution has a thought process. Evolution does not "think" and decide anything. If successive mutations are beneficial, they will survive. If not, they will die out.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #21 - December 30, 2009, 11:01 AM

    Thread jacked


    No the thread still on the subject. Kope imposing as gatty is a process of evolution. kope found out that he does better if his name was changed. So natural selection for Trolls is to keep changing their usernames! You see the thread still on the topic of Evolution!  Afro

    ...
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #22 - December 30, 2009, 01:13 PM

    Thanks baal and abuk, you cleared up a lot of things, but there're a few things I'm still unclear about.

    How did the first ever creature / cell learn to develop a skin, a heart, liver, etc and other body organs? What I mean is, all the organs of the animals were at one time not present in any animal, and they were created over time. Where did the knowledge / information to create those traits in the first place come from?

    Secondly, I'm still finding it a bit hard to swallow that random mutations will be so consistently successful over a period of years to bring about a change which will result in a full body organ?

    3rd, Baal mentioned that if a fish are left to live near some stones, overtime they might develop big dots or bony ridges to mimic the stones. Was that a random mutation to the fish's DNA or did the fish 'know' that it should develop those traits? In which case the mutation won't be so random, would it?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #23 - December 30, 2009, 02:42 PM

    3rd, Baal mentioned that if a fish are left to live near some stones, overtime they might develop big dots or bony ridges to mimic the stones. Was that a random mutation to the fish's DNA or did the fish 'know' that it should develop those traits? In which case the mutation won't be so random, would it?

    I am no expert, but I think of it this way.
    The first time it was something random. The dots weren't exactly there to mimic stones, they just happened to one of possibly millions of that species. That fish had more chance at survival because predators didn't notice it. Over time the dotted fish had become the dominant variant of the species because it kept passing that trait and the off-springs were more numerous as they were attacked less often.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #24 - December 30, 2009, 03:39 PM

    How did the first ever creature / cell learn to develop a skin, a heart, liver, etc and other body organs?


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005lp0j

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005lnm7

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #25 - December 30, 2009, 03:42 PM

    Thanks baal and abuk, you cleared up a lot of things, but there're a few things I'm still unclear about.

    How did the first ever creature / cell learn to develop a skin, a heart, liver, etc and other body organs? What I mean is, all the organs of the animals were at one time not present in any animal, and they were created over time. Where did the knowledge / information to create those traits in the first place come from?




    Organs were not created in one go. They evolved from tiny little improvements. Let's take the example of the eye. A few mutations generate a very primitive cell which is light sensitive. If this provides a competitive advantage, then those species with photo sensitive cells will prosper over those that do not. Over time they will become the dominant species. Further iterations could dictate that those species who have photo sensitive cells clumped in one area may offer the competitive advantage over others. This process continues - each time tiny improvements are rendered.


    Secondly, I'm still finding it a bit hard to swallow that random mutations will be so consistently successful over a period of years to bring about a change which will result in a full body organ?



    Take the example of skin. In very sunny climates, dark skin is an advantage. If we take the native Australians, they have relatively dark skin. "White" Australians, who emigrated from Europe, have paler skin. However, over the generations, the skin pigmentation has darkened to successive generations being exposed to a high degree of sunlight. It is predicted that within the next 200 years, the Australians will have dark skins.

    I do agree that it is very difficult to comprehend evolution because of the time needed to make dramatic changes. However, if you study how pigeons are bred, it may provide a simple example of change. Pigeon breeders pick certain traits they would like to see eg large tail feathers. They pick pigeons with large tail feathers and breed successively. Over time, the off spring from this pair will all have very large tail feathers.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #26 - December 30, 2009, 04:16 PM

    reminds me of elephants have evolved to have smaller tusks.  Not because of natural forces mind you, only because hunters would kills the elephants with the larger ones..
    although this does not admittedly answer your query about how complete organs came about.  Without knowing exactly, my guess is that organs came about in the same way, as explained earlier, as he eye came about i.e. each progressive stage had its own advantage..

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #27 - December 30, 2009, 04:43 PM

    The follwing link to a Nat Geo article is a good summary:

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2006/11/evolution/zimmer-text/1
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #28 - December 30, 2009, 04:49 PM

    I think I understand the process through which the eye for example, is created over progressive millions of generations.

    1) A random mutation in the DNA causes a small photo-sensitive organ to be developed in a cell

    2) Over thousands of generations this organ is improved just a little each time until it becomes the color-sensitive, sharp eye that humans and some other creatures have.

    But what I don't understand is, assuming that each of the progressive little improvements to the eye were all random, why did all of the random mutations only improved the eye? How did the knowledge come about that the eye should be evolved along this particular course of improvements to make it perfect?

    Also regarding the example of Australians having darker skin, admittedly I don't know if this is true or not. I've been to Australia and seen many pale people, but lots of people who are tan just spend more time at the beach, so I'm not sure if they're born with this darker skin or just developed a tan by staying in sun.

    But assuming that the example is true, how does evolution know that the skin pigment should be darkened? If a person stays out in the sun and gets darker, does this info actually spread to the DNA of the person so when he has sex, this darker-skin DNA is passed on to his children?

    Edit: I will check the BBC articles & nat geo article now
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #29 - December 30, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Its clear you dont really understand evolution

    why did all of the random mutations only improved the eye? How did the knowledge come about that the eye should be evolved in this particular fashion to make it perfect?

    Its random, so it didnt 'know' - the process took place over billions of years.  These mutations just happened to live longer thats all.  If you havent watch this already, then I highly recommend it..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RLU4-kySow

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