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 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #60 - December 31, 2009, 06:26 PM

    Natural selection is not the only determinant of human traits. There is also sexual selection. Sometimes a population may favor a certain trait and sexually reproduce it more than others.

    And not all traits necessarily give you an advantage and may exist as a side effect of some other trait that was naturally selected. Traits like blue eyes and blonde hair have no known benefits and may have arisen out of some side effect and then later sexually selected due to it's aesthetic desirability.


    You're right about this but then blondes haven't overrun all brunettes in europe & america as slanted eyed folks overran the population of non-slanted eyed folks in east-asian countries. So it leaves me a little skeptic that sexual selection alone could have changed and entire nation.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #61 - December 31, 2009, 06:34 PM

    Question.

    The east-asian people (chinese, japanese, koreans, etc) have slanted eyes because it is said that because for a long time they lived in a very windy and cold environment, the eye evolved a tissue/layer to protect itself from the cold winds and it is the reason why asian people still have slanted eyes.

    Do you think this mutation was also random?

    Which mutation we talking about? the protective layer was not developed over-night. It was developed over the course of Thousands of small adaptations, over hundreds s of generations. The end result of the adaptations, was a slanted eye. But yes, each adaptation was random. Those who adopted were able to better spot the pussy during the storm.

    If you believe the adaptation is not random, then take 2 creatures. Put them in the exact environment, train One of them to lift weight. The other creature to run a treadmill. If One offspring is stronger, and the other has a higher endurance, then you proved that mutation is not random.

    Have there been any randomly slanted eyed people in any other nation without a distant relative having slanted eyes?

    Don't ask rhetorical questions please. Make a point instead. Rhetorical questions and analogies are generally for thick cunts. I am not a thick cunt. At least not with you.

    Also, how did having slanted eyes help the first people who had this mutation to breed more successfully,

    wtf? here I am going to quote you for the answer to your question:
    Quote
    because for a long time they lived in a very windy and cold environment, the eye evolved a tissue/layer to protect itself from the cold winds and it is the reason why asian people still have slanted eyes.


    so successfully that they overran the entire population of non-slanted eyed folks? Its a minor change in the physiology, it may let them have a better eye sight but the age at which the men/women would become infertile remains the same.

    The last example you make is a bit weird, a non-seqitur really. What do you know about the reasons why humans become infertile at a certain age? Perhaps, remaining fertile after 40 is detrimental to our race. Perhaps giving birth to too many kids does not guarantee the survival of the specie. We have countries suffering under the weight of over-population, where they have too many kids relative to the adults? In their case, natural selection will favor a lower fertility age if anything.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #62 - December 31, 2009, 06:34 PM

    You're right about this but then blondes haven't overrun all brunettes in europe & america as slanted eyed folks overran the population of non-slanted eyed folks in east-asian countries. So it leaves me a little skeptic that sexual selection alone could have changed and entire nation.


    Uhhh....?? Where did I say sexual selection produced those traits? I said it could have produced those traits. So be skeptical about something else, because I'm not making any assumptions or claims - just saying the natural selection or adaptive pressures are not he only reason for the propagation of certain human traits. The research and info on the rise of specific racial traits are still not very complete.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #63 - December 31, 2009, 06:35 PM

    I understand the logic behind this, but I would only believe that those 30,000 were just lucky if I can also see the corpses of the remaining 970,000 people who were unlucky. Do we have enough fossil evidence which shows the vastly great number of unsuccessful genetic mutations?


    Don't need fossil evidence for that. You just have to look at the number of failed pregnancies and people dying of illnesses hat have genetic reasons all around. There are lots of genes and genetic mutations that are harmful. Just look at how many people are dying all around us.

    Consider also that any feature like the wing for example, is developed over a series of progressive iterations, right? If any step along the iterations is done incorrectly, then the wing is not formed. Is there fossil evidence indicating such mutations where one of the steps was done incorrectly and resulted in a deformed or useless wing?


    Fossilization is a rare event. And mutations that would recognizably change the appearance of bones are a rare event. That's why it is very improbable to find such a specimen.

    Also, single mutations usually change very little. A mutation evolving a wing into a "wrong" direction could be there and meaning its carriers have lower chance for survival without us being able to notice it at all.


    Actually, it leaves me asking whether the lizards in Italy developed the mutation for digesting vegetation at all, or did it only occur in the lizards on the island & hence was a result of adaptation to the island's diet.


    It is not one mutation. It is a lot of different mutations adding up. Any random ocurance of any of these mutations would mean that its carriers have a worse chance for survival.

    Have you learned how Meanders evolve? It is a very slow process. Standing there and watching a river, you will not notice what is going on, but after a course of thousands of years, a specific structure is created.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #64 - December 31, 2009, 06:41 PM

    I understand the logic behind this, but I would only believe that those 30,000 were just lucky if I can also see the corpses of the remaining 970,000 people who were unlucky. Do we have enough fossil evidence which shows the vastly great number of unsuccessful genetic mutations?

    Consider also that any feature like the wing for example, is developed over a series of progressive iterations, right? If any step along the iterations is done incorrectly, then the wing is not formed. Is there fossil evidence indicating such mutations where one of the steps was done incorrectly and resulted in a deformed or useless wing?

    Actually, it leaves me asking whether the lizards in Italy developed the mutation for digesting vegetation at all, or did it only occur in the lizards on the island & hence was a result of adaptation to the island's diet.


    No. We do not have a deformed wing. You keep thinking of mutation as a 1 step process. It is extremely rare to be a one step process. Usually it is just a serie of adaptations. With each wing becoming a bit better or a bit worse. The better wing, has a better chance of making it.

    Here is however, an example of an actual 1-step mutation gone wrong. These kids have Down's Syndrome. They will live their lives, but will not be able to reproduce. This is why, only 1 in 600 kids suffer from this form of mutation.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #65 - December 31, 2009, 06:55 PM

    Those who adopted were able to better spot the pussy during the storm.

    If only spotting the pussy was all there was to getting laid  Cheesy. Plus I don't think that during a storm those guys would be looking for pussy, survival would be their first priority in that case. I don't think a better eyesight helps them breed better unless its sexual selection like Kafirist said.

    If you believe the adaptation is not random, then take 2 creatures. Put them in the exact environment, train One of them to lift weight. The other creature to run a treadmill. If One offspring is stronger, and the other has a higher endurance, then you proved that mutation is not random.

     Cheesy Cheesy Two things immediately wrong with this are, creatures cannot lift weight, and you're only giving it the time of 2 generations.
    If you give them a long period its possible that they will eventually adapt.

    Perhaps giving birth to too many kids does not guarantee the survival of the specie. We have countries suffering under the weight of over-population, where they have too many kids relative to the adults? You think natural selection in those countries will favor a longer infertility age? or a lower infertility age?


    You have a very good point.. perhaps its for our own good that we become infertile at (is it at 40 or 50?) so we don't over-populate the planet. My point was simply that I didn't see how a random mutation causing someone to have a little slanted eyes would increase their potential to breed or survive. Although to be fair it could have made them survive longer than those who lost their eyesight earlier, so you have a point there.

    But the question that remains is, were the mutations that eventually made their eyes slanted random or was it a result of adaptation to the environment? And if it was random, has it been observed in any other nation which doesn't have the high UV rays of sun reflecting from the snow or the cold winds which the asian people are said to have been subjected to?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #66 - December 31, 2009, 07:00 PM

    There is not a single mutation that leads to slanted eyes. It is a lot of cummulated mutations. And yes, when you look at people's eyes, you will see that people have different looking eyes.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #67 - December 31, 2009, 07:00 PM

    Don't need fossil evidence for that. You just have to look at the number of failed pregnancies and people dying of illnesses hat have genetic reasons all around. There are lots of genes and genetic mutations that are harmful. Just look at how many people are dying all around us.

    Quote
    Here is however, an example of an actual 1-step mutation gone wrong. These kids have Down's Syndrome. They will live their lives, but will not be able to reproduce. This is why, only 1 in 600 kids suffer from this form of mutation.

    I accept that a lot of genetic mutations occur in humans today which are random and hence the mutations could have been random..
    But are there any examples of 'good' random mutations that occur in humans or any other species which are random and not a result of adaptation?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #68 - December 31, 2009, 07:02 PM

    Btw Liberated, I might be off but I think you have this concept that random mutation, is actually a drastic change that occurs from one parent to the kid. Like a wing that points backwards. This is not the case for 99.99999% of mutations. Most mutations are just forms of very very minor adaptations. Some adaptations are for the worse. They result in bad things usually. Think 2 brothers. One is good looking and One is ugly. To us, this is not a mutation. But sexual selection will work overtime on favoring One over the other.

    Lucy's brain was 400cc, the humans are 1200cc, we have a whole range of creatures ranging from 400 all the way to 1200. At no point, do we have a reason to suspect a jump from let's say 500 to 1000. But we can pretty much expect Lucy's sisters to be 390-410cc



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #69 - December 31, 2009, 07:09 PM

    Quote
    Btw Liberated, I might be off but I think you have this concept that random mutation, is actually a drastic change that occurs from one parent to the kid. Like a wing that points backwards. This is not the case for 99.99999% of mutations. Most mutations are just forms of very very minor adaptations. Some adaptations are for the worse. They result in bad things usually.


    I do understand this concept, apologies if it came out like I expected it to be drastic, I understand that it happens over a series of adaptations/mutations.

    What I meant by the wing example was that, since in order for a wing to be formed, there need to be some mutations occurring to the organs which will eventually result in a wing. Has there been any fossil evidence where one of those mutations to a wing-in-progress organ which resulted in a deformed wing-in-progress or a wing-in-progress which would end up not as a wing but as a malfunctioning organ? Wings are just an example, could be any other organ really
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #70 - December 31, 2009, 07:11 PM

    Also, what about when we take vaccine for a disease like small pox, don't our bodies adapt to the disease as a result of the dead bacteria and as a result the real bacteria will not harm us? Isn't that an example of adaptation at cellular level which is not random?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #71 - December 31, 2009, 07:16 PM

    If only spotting the pussy was all there was to getting laid  Cheesy. Plus I don't think that during a storm those guys would be looking for pussy, survival would be their first priority in that case. I don't think a better eyesight helps them breed better unless its sexual selection like Kafirist said.

    Pedantics. Better eyes allows them better spot the food, the tiger about to pounce on them, the enemy laying in ambush, the ambush they are laying for their enemy. End of the day, they will be the one to make it home and fvck the prom queen. natural selection. sexual selection.

    Cheesy Cheesy Two things immediately wrong with this are, creatures cannot lift weight, and you're only giving it the time of 2 generations.
    If you give them a long period its possible that they will eventually adapt.

    You are being a troll. The experiment can be done of bacteria. It can be done of fish that breed 4 times a year. It can be done of bugs that breed 30 times a year. The exercise has to be something the creature is capable of doing.

    If you pull this sort of pedantics on me again then this conversation is over.

    But the question that remains is, were the mutations that occurred in their eyes slanted random or was it a result of adaptation to the environment?

    A very intelligent question. In fact, both answers satisfy Darwin's theory. All Darwin said is that, random mutation/natural selection exhibit a very large influence, and other forms of selection are so insignificant as to be undetectable through his experiments.

    Further experiments after Darwin croaked, we discovered that there is no intelligence into the mutation. You are welcome to experiment and/or find the proper experiment.

    If you perform the experiment I said above, you will get the answer to how this universe. Luckily for us, the experiments had been performed. Lysenko was wrong.

    And if it was random, has it been observed in any other nation which doesn't have the high UV rays of sun reflecting from the snow or the cold winds which the asian people are said to have been subjected to?

    What is the anwer to that question?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #72 - December 31, 2009, 07:19 PM

    Liberated: Couple questions.

    What experiment you think, if performed will prove the idea you put forward.
    What experiment will disprove it.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #73 - December 31, 2009, 07:19 PM

    Vaccine doesn't work on genes. But is also works on a non-random selection on random mutations.

    Very simplified:

    There are antibodies with random shapes in your body. These antibodies are created randomly. The antibodies for a specific disease are already there, before you get the disease, because they are created randomly. But there is a process which means that antibodies of a certain shape are multiplied and reproduced as soon as they bind to a virus or virus material.

    i.e. When you get a vaccine, then the antibodies in your body that match that vaccine which are already there, become active and then they are multiplied a billion times. Then when the actual virus arrives, he has no chance to do its dirty business, because there are already enough antibodies to combat it before it can do any damage.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #74 - December 31, 2009, 07:20 PM

    I gotta say, Baal and Nineberry, you both got an impressive and detailed knowledge of evolution. Props.  Afro cool2

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #75 - December 31, 2009, 07:28 PM

    Quote
    Pedantics. Better eyes allows them better spot the food, the tiger about to pounce on them, the enemy laying in ambush, the ambush they are laying for their enemy. End of the day, they will be the one to make it home and fvck the prom queen. natural selection. sexual selection.

    '
    Afro Completely agree with this although it wasn't my intention to come off as pedantic & sorry if it came off that way.

    Quote
    The experiment can be done of bacteria. It can be done of fish that breed 4 times a year. It can be done of bugs that breed 30 times a year. The exercise has to be something the creature is capable of doing.

    There have been some experiments done where if you put fruit flies in a different environment they will adapt/evolve accordingly to survive in that environment. Almost every species evolves to adapt best according to its environment, right? All I'm wondering, is whether those changes are random, or a result of adaptation to their environment.

    I'm not suggesting that adaptation is intelligent by any means, it can be the result of blind repitition. If a lizard has to repeatedly feed on leaves, it gradually adapts by evolving a digestive system to digest the vegetarian diet, if apes have to walk on open grasslands rather than swing on trees, they adapt by eventually becoming bipolar, etc.. Hardly intelligent but a result of change in environments.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #76 - December 31, 2009, 07:34 PM

    Liberated: Couple questions.
    What experiment you think, if performed will prove the idea you put forward.
    What experiment will disprove it.


    I have very little knowledge on biology and what the diets of various species are and what their anatomy is like..

    But I think, that if suddenly humans were forced to live inside a tunnel where they had to walk on all fours to get around, eventually, over a long period, over many generations, their bone structure & genes would change so their offspring would be better suited for walking on all 4s than standing upright, it would result in less backpain as it would do for a present day human being, etc. This would be the result of adaptation imo.

    If a random mutation caused a baby to be born / produced such that its skeleton structure was better suited to walk on all 4s than upright, even in a minor but noticeable way, the experiment would be disproved.

    I'm sure you know a lot about the species like bees / flies where evolution happens quicker and you'll be able to suggest better/faster experiments


    I gotta say, Baal and Nineberry, you both got an impressive and detailed knowledge of evolution. Props.  Afro cool2

    Yea, those two are very knowledgeable!  Afro
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #77 - December 31, 2009, 07:38 PM

    Vaccine doesn't work on genes. But is also works on a non-random selection on random mutations.

    Very simplified:

    There are antibodies with random shapes in your body. These antibodies are created randomly. The antibodies for a specific disease are already there, before you get the disease, because they are created randomly. But there is a process which means that antibodies of a certain shape are multiplied and reproduced as soon as they bind to a virus or virus material.

    i.e. When you get a vaccine, then the antibodies in your body that match that vaccine which are already there, become active and then they are multiplied a billion times. Then when the actual virus arrives, he has no chance to do its dirty business, because there are already enough antibodies to combat it before it can do any damage.


    Very interesting, i didn't know that. I thought it was simply the body becoming tougher as a result of fighting the dead cells.
    One question. Do we have the antibodies for every disease, i.e swine flu, bird flu, etc? Do we have those anti-bodies in an inactive state in our body & they can be triggered to become active?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #78 - December 31, 2009, 07:50 PM

    There have been some experiments done where if you put fruit flies in a different environment they will adapt/evolve accordingly to survive in that environment. Almost every species evolves to adapt best according to its environment, right? All I'm wondering, is whether those changes are random, or a result of adaptation to their environment.


    Here is a very important point to see whether beneficial mutations are random ors non-random: Make an experiment, take a population of beings, split up the population randomly and then put these isolated groups into areas with the same changed environment.

    The expectation is that all of these groups adapt to the changed environment after some time. If you expect that mutations that will cause this change are random, you will expect that different groups will evolve different strategies to deal with the changed environment. If you expect that such mutations are non-random but somehow caused by the environment, you would expect that all of the different groups evolve the same strategy to deal with the changed environment.

    A few months ago I read about such an experiment on some bacteria, I think. In that experiment, they could show that different populations evolved different strategies although they were faced with the same environment.

    I'm not suggesting that adaptation is intelligent by any means, it can be the result of blind repitition. If a lizard has to repeatedly feed on leaves, it gradually adapts by evolving a digestive system to digest the vegetarian diet, if apes have to walk on open grasslands rather than swing on trees, they adapt by eventually becoming bipolar, etc.. Hardly intelligent but a result of change in environments.


    That's how it works. But all the changes are based on random mutation. If you think otherwise, you would have to propose a mechanism by which something you do can influence your genetic code in a way so that your offspring can do it easier. Something would be highly unlikely because the genetic code is quite complex and not a simple plan of your body.

    Quote
    But I think, that if suddenly humans were forced to live inside a tunnel where they had to walk on all fours to get around, eventually, over a long period, their bone structure & genes would change so their offspring would be better suited for walking on all 4s than standing upright, it would result in less backpain as it would do for a present day human being, etc. This would be the result of adaptation imo.


    Another possibility is that humans would just be smaller. Because the smaller you are the less problems you have living in a place with a low ceiling, the less likely you are to have more offspring.

    People already come in different sizes, so it is easy to imagine how humans would become smaller and smaller because always the smallest ones be the ones with best survival chances.

    Quote
    If a random mutation caused a baby to be born / produced such that its skeleton structure was better suited to walk on all 4s than upright, even in a minor but noticeable way, the experiment would be disproved.


    But that is very much likely the case. You forget that you would not be able to easily spot such a situation. When looking around, people's bones do have very small differences. Such differences would be the first step towards evolving towards walking on all fours. You know, there are a lot of people that get problems with their back very early in their lives. I am sadly one of them. Have had back-pain since I was 25. In a world where everyone walks on all fours, it could be that I was better off. I (and people that suffer the same problems) could be the first step towards evolving towards walking on all fours, if such a situation would ever arise.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #79 - December 31, 2009, 08:12 PM

    Quote
    Make an experiment, take a population of beings, split up the population randomly and then put these isolated groups into areas with the same changed environment.

    The expectation is that all of these groups adapt to the changed environment after some time. If you expect that mutations that will cause this change are random, you will expect that different groups will evolve different strategies to deal with the changed environment. If you expect that such mutations are non-random but somehow caused by the environment, you would expect that all of the different groups evolve the same strategy to deal with the changed environment.


    This would be a great experiment, however I would change the stakes in this way:

    - Take X number of bees, split them equally and put them in the same environment but with no contact with each other.
    - If one of the groups adapts while the other group does not adapt or dies out, the adaptation is indeed random, however if both groups adapt, even by different strategies, then adaptation is not random.

    The point I'm making is, the population will adapt through one strategy or another as a result of change in their environment. If one population group dies out or does not change, it means that the mutations are indeed random, not in response to a change in the environment, and this group was unlucky in that a mutation to help it survive better didn't occur in that group.

    Quote
    If you think otherwise, you would have to propose a mechanism by which something you do can influence your genetic code in a way so that your offspring can do it easier. Something would be highly unlikely because the genetic code is quite complex and not a simple plan of your body.


    I understand your point, but walking bi-polar could be learned by offsprings from parents for 1000s of generations until eventually it became a part of their genetic code?

    There will indeed need to be a way for the knowledge to be transferred genetically... perhaps we just don't know right now how it is done?

    Quote
    Another possibility is that humans would just be smaller...
    People already come in different sizes, so it is easy to imagine how humans would become smaller and smaller because always the smallest ones be the ones with best survival chances.


    Picture a very low ceiling where even a 4 foot tall person would be forced to crawl. So there would just be no way for even the small people to stand upright except perhaps the dwarf-like people. Do you think eventually only the dwarves would survive? May be you're right. But it could also be possible that humans adapt by eventually changing their body structure so its better suited for crawling?

    Quote
    I (and people that suffer the same problems) could be the first step towards evolving towards walking on all fours, if such a situation would ever arise.


    You're right and I can't disprove you, that could very likely be the case. Is it a genetic condition and your offspring will also have similar-shaped bones as you?

    One question remains. There are various examples of bad random mutations that occur in humans & animals. But have there been any examples of 'good' random mutations which can't be the result of adaptation to their environment?

    This discussion is very enlightening for me overall Smiley
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #80 - December 31, 2009, 08:21 PM

    One question. Do we have the antibodies for every disease, i.e swine flu, bird flu, etc?


    It is a result of random processes. Most people have antibodies for most diseases most of the time. But there is no guarantee everyone has antibodies for each diseases all the time.

    Edit: It should rather say "b-cells" instead of "antibodies"

    Do we have those anti-bodies in an inactive state in our body & they can be triggered to become active?


    Well, I learned that in school more than 12 years ago, so let's see whether I can remember exactly how it works:

    Antibodies are not cells, they are just pieces of molecules that can "lock on" other pieces of molecules with a certain pattern.

    In your blood, you have lots of white blood cells called b-cells. These are constantly produced inside the bones and upon creation, they are created with a small antibody with a random shape attached to their cell membrane, a little like antlers. These b-cells float through your blood, basically doing nothing and dying soon.

    When such a b-cell now meets a piece of molecules (like a virus or a vaccine) it can "lock on to", it transforms. First, it will multiply, then all these clones will start producing lots of antibodies with exactly the shape that the original b-cell's antlers had. So, within a certain time frame, lots of antibodies are created. The antibodies lock on to the virus and then the virus will be "eaten" by other white blood cells.

    Then, again some of these b-cells with the correctly shaped antlers will turn into memory cells. This means, they will not die soon, but instead live longer and they also grow bigger. These cells are now called "memory cells". And they are the main reason why you will then be immune to the same virus. If the virus enters again, firstly, there might still be antibodies with the right shape in your blood that can immediately start fighting the virus, but secondly these memory cells with the right shaped antlers are around. And because they are now memory cells and not normal b-cells they are much more powerful. If their antlers locks onto molecules with the right shape, they will immediately start producing the correct antibodies again.

    So, in summary, b-cells with randomly shaped antlers are created all the time and have a short life span. If they meet a virus or vaccine they can lock-on to, they turn into more powerful memory cells and start producing antibodies.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #81 - December 31, 2009, 08:45 PM

    This would be a great experiment, however I would change the stakes in this way:

    - Take X number of bees, split them equally and put them in the same environment but with no contact with each other.
    - If one of the groups adapts while the other group does not adapt or dies out, the adaptation is indeed random, however if both groups adapt, even by different strategies, then adaptation is not random.


    You wouldn't take bees. If there are different strategies used, then adaptation is certainly based on a random thing that determines in what direction the adaptation goes. If it was non-random you would expect the same strategy.

    Apart from that, I think the experiment I mentioned already had groups that did not adapt at all. I am now going to look whether I can find it. Think it had something to do with bacteria and sugars.

    The point I'm making is, the population will adapt through one strategy or another as a result of change in their environment. If one population group dies out or does not change, it means that the mutations are indeed random, not in response to a change in the environment, and this group was unlucky in that a mutation to help it survive better didn't occur in that group.


    It depends on the numbers. If you have a large population and the environment doesn't actually mean sudden death within one or a few generation, then it is very probably that most populations will have random mutations (eventually even before being transplanted into that new environment) that do help in some way.

    I understand your point, but walking bi-polar could be learned by offsprings from parents for 1000s of generations until eventually it became a part of their genetic code?


    Many apes do walk on two legs some of the time, so mutations that allowed walking on two legs more easily certainly evolved while individuals where already walking on two legs at least some of the time.

    It's called pi-pedal, by the way. If someone is bi-polar, it means, he has a psychological illness that causes him to have alternating phases of extreme joy and extreme depression:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL-RWsUn-ZY


    One question remains. There are various examples of bad random mutations that occur in humans & animals. But have there been any examples of 'good' random mutations which can't be the result of adaptation to their environment?


    How would you know about them? And what does "good" even mean without considering the environment? See my explanation above: A good mutation in one environment may be a bad mutation in a different environment.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #82 - December 31, 2009, 09:18 PM

    That's the experiment I was talking about:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

    With the ability to digest citrate evolved in only one of twelve groups, you have an example of a beneficial mutation occurring randomly.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #83 - December 31, 2009, 09:24 PM

    '
    Afro Completely agree with this although it wasn't my intention to come off as pedantic & sorry if it came off that way.
    There have been some experiments done where if you put fruit flies in a different environment they will adapt/evolve accordingly to survive in that environment. Almost every species evolves to adapt best according to its environment, right? All I'm wondering, is whether those changes are random, or a result of adaptation to their environment.

    I'm not suggesting that adaptation is intelligent by any means, it can be the result of blind repitition. If a lizard has to repeatedly feed on leaves, it gradually adapts by evolving a digestive system to digest the vegetarian diet, if apes have to walk on open grasslands rather than swing on trees, they adapt by eventually becoming bipolar, etc.. Hardly intelligent but a result of change in environments.


    Wrong. The idea you are presenting had never been observed in a controlled experiment. Repetition is not a motivation for evolution. Only if you are sitting there and weeding out those who fail to 'repeat', will you cause an evolution.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #84 - December 31, 2009, 09:29 PM

    I have very little knowledge on biology and what the diets of various species are and what their anatomy is like..

    But I think, that if suddenly humans were forced to live inside a tunnel where they had to walk on all fours to get around, eventually, over a long period, over many generations, their bone structure & genes would change so their offspring would be better suited for walking on all 4s than standing upright, it would result in less backpain as it would do for a present day human being, etc. This would be the result of adaptation imo.

    Bad experiment. That is still evolution through natural selection, and not evolution through 'intelligent mutation'. You have to device an experiment that takes natural selection out of the equation.

    If a random mutation caused a baby to be born / produced such that its skeleton structure was better suited to walk on all 4s than upright, even in a minor but noticeable way, the experiment would be disproved.

    We get humans like that all the time. In fact, our back is still not fully designed to walk properly on Two. We still get kids with a 'bad back'.

    I'm sure you know a lot about the species like bees / flies where evolution happens quicker and you'll be able to suggest better/faster experiments

    No need to do too much research into it, just come up with something quick and dirty.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #85 - December 31, 2009, 09:33 PM

    That's the experiment I was talking about:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

    With the ability to digest citrate evolved in only one of twelve groups, you have an example of a beneficial mutation occurring randomly.

    Tx, that's the experiment i was looking for, the other experiment now i remember was about the 'guppy?' fish.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #86 - December 31, 2009, 10:49 PM

    Here is the Guppy fish experiment in Trinidad, it makes for a nice read. It shows how quick adaptation can occur.

    It shows that putting pressure on an organism causes adapation.
    It shows that the evolution/adaptation is directed.
    It does not prove or negate the idea of 'smart mutation' or a 'random mutation/natural selection".

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090610185526.htm

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #87 - December 31, 2009, 10:52 PM

    And Liberated, I am still hoping you can think up of couple experiments to prove/negate the idea that repetition/intelligence drives the evolution. Once you come up with some experiments, I can perhaps try and find some parallel experiments that were done and we can compare them.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #88 - January 01, 2010, 02:49 PM

    Well, in the presence of those experiments where one out of 12 populations evolved the ability to digest citrate, it leaves little doubt that the mutations can be random Smiley.

    Furthermore that there isn't any known process through which the effects of a parent having to walk on 2 feet can be transferred genetically onto its offspring, resulting in a skeleton better designed for walking on 2 feet.

    In the presence of those facts I think the mutations can be random. It does make one wonder though if there's a higher power behind all the successful mutations or if they're really random.  dance.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #89 - January 01, 2010, 04:47 PM

    In the presence of those facts I think the mutations can be random. It does make one wonder though if there's a higher power behind all the successful mutations or if they're really random.  dance.


    Okay. I confess. It's me. I am responsible for all the beneficial mutations.
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