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 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #120 - January 01, 2010, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on January 01, 2010, 08:04 PM
    No. It is clear that evolution is not guided towards a certain aim.


    How is that clear?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #121 - January 01, 2010, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 07:09 PM
    what proof do you have?


    A scientific demonstration.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html


    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 07:22 PM
    I agree with the points you raise but the fact that a tremendous number of mutations have to go right even for the simplest structure to be developed leaves some doubt in any rational person's mind as to whether those mutations are just random or guided.


    Yes, but these mutations of are going for billions of years. A billion year is a long time.

    Here is a laboratory demonstrations how chance mutations brings about new varients.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #122 - January 01, 2010, 08:10 PM
    Because there were one-way streets, for example.
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #123 - January 01, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:01 PM
    So when Rubaiyat says science 'is not guided' she is stating a belief not a fact


    Rubaiyat is a he.  I don't know what exactly he stated, but it would be an accurate statement of fact to say that there is no evidence that evolution is guided, therefore atheism/agnosticism is a logical default position.

    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Ken miller is a theist??


    He's a practising Catholic.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #124 - January 01, 2010, 08:16 PM
    not really proof that evolution is not guided.  Anyone have anything?  Or can we take that as a given.    Unless you want to suggest that if God were involved he would have signed his name and the onus would be on the theist to show where he did
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #125 - January 01, 2010, 08:18 PM
    Lightrays, intelligent design is not science.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #126 - January 01, 2010, 08:20 PM
    Again Lightrays, you are asking us to prove a negative, which is impossible.  If you're asserting that evolution is guided then there are an awful lot of things you would have to explain, eg, mass extinctions, design flaws, vestigial organs, etc.

    If you're interested in the subject you could do worse than read Miller's book "Finding Darwin's God," he gives a clear and tenable enough overview of the case for God guiding evolution.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #127 - January 01, 2010, 08:21 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:16 PM
    not really proof that evolution is not guided.  


    So God guided e Ecoli to evolve in the test tube? :-)

    So every time we repeat this experiment...God is guiding E coli to evolve each time ?:-)


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #128 - January 01, 2010, 08:23 PM
    both atheists and theists 'explain'  facts of life such as you list but that is not in the domain of science.  I am glad there is such agreement here.  Lets savour the moment
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #129 - January 01, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Ah, sophistry and bullshit, the last refuge of the modern theist.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #130 - January 01, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 08:21 PM
    So God guided e Ecoli to evolve in the test tube? :-)

    So every time we repeat this experiment...God is guiding E coli to evolve each time ?:-)


    your point?  I think we have all just put the question of your personal beliefs to rest
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #131 - January 01, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:16 PM
    not really proof that evolution is not guided.

    Not sure what you mean lightrays?  Are you saying God got directly involved in this EColi bacteria experiment to enable them to digest citrates?
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #132 - January 01, 2010, 08:28 PM
    no that was rubaiyat.  She started by saying it was fact that science is not guided, not sure where she is going with this now?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #133 - January 01, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:25 PM
    your point?  I think we have all just put the question of your personal beliefs to rest



    erm...my point ? - evolution is not Guided. We can prove this in a test tube :-)


    No, we have put your intelligent Design to rest :-)

    End of.

    Next Question.

    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #134 - January 01, 2010, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on January 01, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Ah, sophistry and bullshit, the last refuge of the modern theist.


    refuge?  From what? Is theism under attack in this thread?  Why how so?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #135 - January 01, 2010, 08:31 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 01, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Not sure what you mean lightrays?  Are you saying God got directly involved in this EColi bacteria experiment to enable them to digest citrates?



    Yes. We can get God to do our bidding each time we repeat the experiment :-)

    God has become our servant :-)
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #136 - January 01, 2010, 08:33 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 08:28 PM

    erm...my point ? - evolution is not Guided. We can prove this in a test tube :-)



    Sorry I really have to say that you are, with alll due respect, flying in the face of quite a lot there, not least the other views expressed here.  Science doesn't prove or disprove a creative force behind it.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #137 - January 01, 2010, 08:34 PM
    Quote
    Sorry I really have to say that you are, with alll due respect, flying in the face of quite a lot there, not least the other views expressed here.  Science doesn't prove or disprove a creative force behind it.


    With due respect.

    We have demonstrated that evolution is not guided.

    You can't accept that. Thats your problem.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #138 - January 01, 2010, 08:35 PM
    no one else accepted that either
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #139 - January 01, 2010, 08:36 PM
    Sure, there could be a god behind evolution. But it would we a completely lunatic and unintelligent god, constantly changing what he intents to do, finding non-optimal solutions, being unable to foresee problems in his designs.

    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #140 - January 01, 2010, 08:37 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:33 PM
    Science doesn't prove or disprove a creative force behind it.


    Science does so implicitly, since it provides no evidence that there is any guiding creative force behind evolution. The idea of intelligent design that you obviously are attempting (rather badly!) at promoting has been debunked and ridiculed out of science many times now.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #141 - January 01, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Quote
    no one else accepted that either


    Science accepts demonstrable evidence.

    I can't careless if others don't accept demonstrable evidence.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #142 - January 01, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on January 01, 2010, 08:36 PM
    Sure, there could be a god behind evolution. But it would we a completely lunatic and unintelligent god, constantly changing what he intents to do, finding non-optimal solutions, being unable to foresee problems in his designs.


    And resulting in the extinction of the majority of his guided creations.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #143 - January 01, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Intelligent Design is nonsense, but I don't think Lightrays is proposing ID.  It sounds more like she is proposing theistically guided Evolution.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #144 - January 01, 2010, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Intelligent Design is nonsense, but I don't think Lightrays is proposing ID.  It sounds more like she is proposing theistically guided Evolution.


    Which is just a more watered down version of ID, isn't it?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #145 - January 01, 2010, 08:39 PM
    What's the difference?
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #146 - January 01, 2010, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 08:10 PM
    A scientific demonstration.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html


    Sorry but this still doesn't prove that the mutation which did occur could not have been guided. Saying that you know for sure that it wasn't guided remains a statement of belief.

    Quote
    it would be an accurate statement of fact to say that there is no evidence that evolution is guided, therefore atheism/agnosticism is a logical default position.


    There is no evidence proving that evolution could not have been / is not guided either. Hence the default stance of science is agnosticism, not atheism.

    Quote
    He's a practising Catholic.


    Really? Just culturally or does he believe it? How does he remain a catholic despite knowing the adam/eve story as being false?

    Quote
    If you're asserting that evolution is guided then there are an awful lot of things you would have to explain, eg, mass extinctions, design flaws, vestigial organs, etc.


    - Which mass extinctions are you referring to? Did nothing good at all come out of those mass extinctions?
    - Which design flaws are you referring to? Did nothing good at all come out of those alleged flaws?
    - The vestigial organs are helpful, if they hadn't remained we humans may have had a weaker case for evolution and we may not have tried to investigate it.

    Quote
    So God guided e Ecoli to evolve in the test tube? :-)


    First off, I've used the word higher power, not god. It could be an unintelligent higher power, an evil higher power, a good higher power, etc. Secondly, yes, it could have been due to the guidance of that higher power that the mutation which occurred did occur. It could have been due to a higher power that a series of circumstances which led to the mutation in the DNA of that population of bacteria to happen. Can you disprove that?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #147 - January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on January 01, 2010, 08:39 PM
    Which is just a more watered down version of ID, isn't it?


    Absolutely not!  ID proponents deny evolution, the more sophisticated ones accept some level of adaptation within species, but they deny speciation itself.  Theistic evolution accepts that evolution happens exactly the way science says it happens, they just believe that Darwinian evolution is the mechanism which God uses to create diversity of life on earth.  Kenneth Miller is one of the main star witnesses against teaching ID in schools in American court cases on the subject, and he is a believer in Theistic Evolution.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #148 - January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    yeah agree with that.  I am not trying to prove anything it was Rubaiyats belief stated as fact that was at issue
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #149 - January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    @Liberated
    Do you believe in theistically guided evolution?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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