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 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #150 - January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Quote
    Sorry but this still doesn't prove that the mutation which did occur could not have been guided. Saying that you know for sure that it wasn't guided remains a statement of belief.


    LOL :-)

    Did God guide e-coli to evolve in the test tube?

    And he does that every time we re run the experiment? :-)

    So we can make God do our bidding :-)
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #151 - January 01, 2010, 08:44 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    yeah agree with that.  I am not trying to prove anything it was Rubaiyats belief stated as fact that was at issue


    It's not a belief.

    We have demonstrable evidence.

    If you can't accept that evidence then thats your problem.


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #152 - January 01, 2010, 08:45 PM
    Quote
    Really? Just culturally or does he believe it? How does he remain a catholic despite knowing the adam/eve story as being false?



    Catholics are not taught that the Adam/Eve story is true to begin with.  The Pope accepts evolution, so why would any other Catholic have trouble?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #153 - January 01, 2010, 08:45 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Absolutely not!  ID proponents deny evolution, the more sophisticated ones accept some level of adaptation within species, but they deny speciation itself.  Theistic evolution accepts that evolution happens exactly the way science says it happens, they just believe that Darwinian evolution is the mechanism which God uses to create diversity of life on earth.  Kenneth Miller is one of the main star witnesses against teaching ID in schools in American court cases on the subject, and he is a believer in Theistic Evolution.


    But it's the word "guided" that bothers me. Do they believe an intelligent force is interfering with the process of evolution to "guide" it towards a desired goal? I have immense respect for Ken Miller and I really doubt he believes in that, so I guess the answer would be no?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #154 - January 01, 2010, 08:47 PM
    You'd need to read Miller's book on the subject to see exactly what he believes, but he definitely believes in both God, (specifically the Christian God), and Darwinian evolution.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #155 - January 01, 2010, 08:48 PM
    Rubaiyat do you at least see the argument and objection to your statment here?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #156 - January 01, 2010, 08:51 PM
    Quote
    Rubaiyat do you at least see the argument and objection to your statment here?


    I have evidence you don't.

    I have demonstrable evidence. You don't


    Evolution is not Guided.


    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #157 - January 01, 2010, 08:51 PM
    Quote
    @Liberated
    Do you believe in theistically guided evolution?


    No i don't, but I remain open to the possibility. I'm agnostic.

    Quote
    Did God guide e-coli to evolve in the test tube?

    And he does that every time we re run the experiment? :-)

    So we can make God do our bidding :-)


    Quote
    First off, I've used the word higher power, not god. It could be an unintelligent higher power, an evil higher power, a good higher power, etc.


    And secondly, the circumstances which led to that mutation occurred around generation 20,000 if I remember correctly. You can only repeat the experiment from gen. 20,000 onwards because the circumstances which could have been guided had already occurred by gen. 20,000.

    If you take the bacteria before gen 20,000 and try to repeat it, you would not be able to repeat it that easily, and if you can, it can be evidence towards the mutations being an adaption to the environment rather than being random.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #158 - January 01, 2010, 08:52 PM
    Quote
    I have demonstrable evidence. You don't


    No you don't. All you have evidence for is that a rare mutation occurred in the DNA of a species, you don't have any evidence to say that the circumstances which led to that mutation could not have been guided.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #159 - January 01, 2010, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 08:51 PM
    I have evidence you don't.

    I have demonstrable evidence. You don't


    Evolution is not Guided.




  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #160 - January 01, 2010, 08:54 PM
    Quote
    And secondly, the circumstances which led to that mutation occurred around generation 20,000 if I remember correctly. You can only repeat the experiment from gen. 20,000 onwards because the circumstances which could have been guided had already occurred by gen.


    LOL :-) So God guided it already :-)

    OK thanks..

    I think I shall not pursue this anymore...it is getting ridicolous.

    Cheers mate.

    Bye.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #161 - January 01, 2010, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 08:52 PM
    No you don't. All you have evidence for is that a rare mutation occurred in the DNA of a species, you don't have any evidence to say that the circumstances which led to that mutation could not have been guided.



    So God must have popped in guided it in the test tube ;-)

    God works in mysterious way :-)
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #162 - January 01, 2010, 08:57 PM
    its a shame some people feel so scared whan their beliefs are challenged lets not pursue the point
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #163 - January 01, 2010, 09:00 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 08:45 PM
    Catholics are not taught that the Adam/Eve story is true to begin with.  The Pope accepts evolution, so why would any other Catholic have trouble?


    Official catholic doctrine is that the Adam & Eve story is true. And the pope does not believe that humans evolved by natural selection.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #164 - January 01, 2010, 09:03 PM
    Quote
    Official catholic doctrine is that the Adam & Eve story is true


    That's not what I was taught at Catholic school.  We were taught that it is a metaphor.  Furthermore, I have never encountered a Catholic who thought the Adam/Eve story was to be taken literally, so its not like my school was unusually liberal.

    Quote
    And the pope does not believe that humans evolved by natural selection.


    [Citation needed].
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #165 - January 01, 2010, 09:05 PM
    Evolution theory clearly shows that you don't need "guidance" to explain evolution. It all happens based on natural processes.

    You cannot rule out than no one played God and interfered at all, but you don't need interference by an outside force. You can't prove that I didn't interfere in evolution.

    With evolution, you a) don't need God to explain life and b) a God becomes highly unlikely because what botcher would work with such an outcome?
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #166 - January 01, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 01, 2010, 08:57 PM

    So God must have popped in guided it in the test tube ;-)

    God works in mysterious way :-)



    1) Higher power, not god.
    2) Why would a test tube be out of the reach of a higher power if the planets & the solar system is not? You're debating like a religious person now, not a scientist
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #167 - January 01, 2010, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 09:03 PM
    That's not what I was taught at Catholic school.  We were taught that it is a metaphor.

     Cheesy Wow, that's awesome. I can't wait for a day when the muslims are taught the same thing.  Cheesy parrot

    I'm curious, how do they justify the concept of heaven & hell, satan, etc if they tell you that adam & eve is a metaphor?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #168 - January 01, 2010, 09:10 PM
    "Higher power" is God's beta-male brother that lives in the basement. I'd rather believe in Allah himself, at least that dude doesn't fuck around.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #169 - January 01, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 09:07 PM
    Cheesy Wow, that's awesome. I can't wait for a day when the muslims are taught the same thing.  Cheesy parrot

    I'm curious, how do they justify the concept of heaven & hell, satan, etc if they tell you that adam & eve is a metaphor?



    That would be interesting, to see what is taken as literal and what as metaphor, then how you arrive at that conclusion?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #170 - January 01, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on January 01, 2010, 09:05 PM
    Evolution theory clearly shows that you don't need "guidance" to explain evolution. It all happens based on natural processes.

    You cannot rule out than no one played God and interfered at all, but you don't need interference by an outside force. You can't prove that I didn't interfere in evolution.


    Evolution doesn't show that you don't 'need' guidance. Evolution explains all the processes through natural phenomena but the word 'random' before the mutations leaves a gap to show that we don't know the patterns/reasons behind the mutations. If we can conclusively derive a patter for those mutations and we don't have to call them random anymore, then it will almost completely remove the possibility of there being someone guiding/interfering in it.

    Quote
    b) a God becomes highly unlikely because what botcher would work with such an outcome?


    What outcome? Evolution is a very intelligent & smart process IMO... the process of sexual breeding itself is very elegant.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #171 - January 01, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 09:07 PM
    Cheesy Wow, that's awesome. I can't wait for a day when the muslims are taught the same thing.  Cheesy parrot

    I'm curious, how do they justify the concept of heaven & hell, satan, etc if they tell you that adam & eve is a metaphor?



    They didn't.   Cheesy  I don't recall Satan, Heaven or Hell even being mentioned to us.  
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #172 - January 01, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 08:51 PM
    No i don't, but I remain open to the possibility. I'm agnostic.

    And secondly, the circumstances which led to that mutation occurred around generation 20,000 if I remember correctly. You can only repeat the experiment from gen. 20,000 onwards because the circumstances which could have been guided had already occurred by gen. 20,000.

    If you take the bacteria before gen 20,000 and try to repeat it, you would not be able to repeat it that easily, and if you can, it can be evidence towards the mutations being an adaption to the environment rather than being random.

    Lets not miss the salient point; the reason it is not easily replicated is because it requires a primary step to take place that has no benefit to this organism.  Its just by chance that it mutates again from this point to digesting citrates, which actually changes it from being Ecol to ad diffferent organism althogether.  Ever heard that we came from fish, with no intervention from God?  Wink

    P.S Lightrays do you have any evidence for your assertion?
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #173 - January 01, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 09:03 PM
    That's not what I was taught at Catholic school.  We were taught that it is a metaphor.  Furthermore, I have never encountered a Catholic who thought the Adam/Eve story was to be taken literally, so its not like my school was unusually liberal.


    There's a difference between official doctrine and what Catholic schools in Europe might teach you.

    Quote from: Cheetah on January 01, 2010, 09:03 PM
    [Citation needed].


    Quote
    Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called ?an ontological leap...the moment of transition to the spiritual.? While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.


    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #174 - January 01, 2010, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 01, 2010, 08:16 PM
    not really proof that evolution is not guided.  Anyone have anything?  Or can we take that as a given.    Unless you want to suggest that if God were involved he would have signed his name and the onus would be on the theist to show where he did

    Quote from: liberated
    - Which design flaws are you referring to? Did nothing good at all come out of those alleged flaws?
    - The vestigial organs are helpful, if they hadn't remained we humans may have had a weaker case for evolution and we may not have tried to investigate it.

    How about the fucked-up carcinogenic location of the prostate gland? isn't that a design flaw?
    And vestigial organs aren't just "helpful". They are proof that even if a god is guiding/overseeing evolution then it really is an incompetent god. What do we have appendices for? what about the patch of hair that grows on our backs during gestation and then disappears shortly before birth?
    Both of you guys could use watching this video. It was recommended to me by BlackDog and now I refer it to you. It addresses all the points you're raising.
                                                            
                                            
                                                       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1m4mATYoig
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #175 - January 01, 2010, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 01, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Lets not miss the salient point; the reason it is not easily replicated is because it requires a primary step to take place that has no benefit to this organism.  Its just by chance that it mutates again from this point to digesting citrates, which actually changes it from being Ecol to ad diffferent organism althogether.


    I don't understand what you're saying here. My understanding is that something happened around gen. 20,000 which laid the framework for the later mutation to occur which gave the bacteria the ability to digest citrate. Before gen. 20,000 it can't easily be replicated for that reason. What are you trying to say?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #176 - January 01, 2010, 09:18 PM
    Quote
    There's a difference between official doctrine and what Catholic schools in Europe might teach you.


    Maybe there is, I can only speak from experience of having been raised a Catholic, I'm not an expert on what the official line may be.

    Quote
    Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called ?an ontological leap...the moment of transition to the spiritual.? While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.


    This is worded in the usual Vatican obscurantism, but nothing in that paragraph rules out natural selection.  Its more of a hedge betting exercise, that's the Catholic Church saying that even if evolution is true it cannot explain the soul, therefore we still win.   Roll Eyes
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #177 - January 01, 2010, 09:19 PM
    Quote from: liberated on January 01, 2010, 09:06 PM
    2) Why would a test tube be out of the reach of a higher power if the planets & the solar system is not? You're debating like a religious person now, not a scientist

    Are you saying God intervened in this Ecoli experiment?
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #178 - January 01, 2010, 09:19 PM
    Quote
    How about the fucked-up carcinogenic location of the prostate gland? isn't that a design flaw?
    And vestigial organs aren't just "helpful". They are proof that even if a god is guiding/overseeing evolution then it really is an incompetent god. What do we have appendices for? what about the patch of hair that grows on our backs during gestation and then disappears shortly before birth?
    Both of you guys could use watching this video. It was recommended to me by BlackDog and now I refer it to you. It addresses all the points you're raising.


    I didn't discount the possibility that it can be an incompetent higher power.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #179 - January 01, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Quote
    Are you saying God intervened in this Ecoli experiment?


    No.

    I'm simply saying that the possibility that a higher power intervened in it cannot be discounted based on present evidence & understanding of things.

    Honestly, I don't believe that a higher power guided evolution, but I think that it might have, the possibility can't be ruled out at this time.

    Being agnostic just makes the most sense to me.
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