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Theme Changer

 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #180 - January 01, 2010, 09:27 PM

    I didn't discount the possibility that it can be an incompetent higher power.

    So this power can create the universe and everything in it, but he cant remove the recessive DNA that we inherited for monkey tails?


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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #181 - January 01, 2010, 09:30 PM

    No.

    I'm simply saying that the possibility that a higher power intervened in it cannot be discounted based on present evidence & understanding of things.

    Honestly, I don't believe that a higher power guided evolution, but I think that it might have, the possibility can't be ruled out at this time.

    Being agnostic just makes the most sense to me.

    Can you rule out the possibility that an invisible 3 headed unicorn with pigs feet created the universe?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #182 - January 01, 2010, 09:36 PM

    Quote from: liberated
    I'm simply saying that the possibility that a higher power intervened in it cannot be discounted based on present evidence & understanding of things.

    Honestly, I don't believe that a higher power guided evolution, but I think that it might have, the possibility can't be ruled out at this time.

    Being agnostic just makes the most sense to me.

    Sure but agnosticism doesn't necessarily mean that it's 50/50. I can't disprove the divinity of Elvis or the FSM and therefore I am agnostic about them. But again it's not like there's a 50% chacne that FSM exists.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #183 - January 01, 2010, 09:37 PM

    Quote
    Can you rule out the possibility that an invisible 3 headed unicorn with pigs feet created the universe?


    Of course not, it very well may have. I personally like the thought of an invisible energy field as being this higher power better.

    Quote
    So this power can create the universe and everything in it, but he cant remove the recessive DNA that we inherited for monkey tails?


    1) Please don't post nsfw pics... *puke*
    2) I'm not the higher power, so I do not know. But there is one possibility.
    Vestegial organs serve a purpose, without them the theory of evolution may have had a weaker case. We might not have had the idea that all things have a common ancestor without seeing vestegial organs present in a lot of living beings.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #184 - January 01, 2010, 09:39 PM

    Quote
    Sure but agnosticism doesn't necessarily mean that it's 50/50. I can't disprove the divinity of Elvis or the FSM and therefore I am agnostic about them. But again it's not like there's a 50% chacne that FSM exists.


    Correct but then again, there are many more signs that point to the existence of a higher power than there are for Elvis being divine, hence the odds for the existence of a higher power are greater than evlis's divinity.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #185 - January 01, 2010, 09:44 PM

    I personally like the thought of an invisible energy field as being this higher power better.

    That does not make you agnostic.  Atheists would be prepared to buy into this too ?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #186 - January 01, 2010, 09:45 PM

    Quote from: liberated
    Vestegial organs serve a purpose, without them the theory of evolution may have had a weaker case. We might not have had the idea that all things have a common ancestor without seeing vestegial organs present in every living being.

    So do you mean like god put these organs on purpose in order to make it easier for us to find out about evolution?

    Quote from: liberated
    Correct but then again, there are many more signs for the existence of a higher power than there are for Elvis being divine, hence the odds for the existence of a higher power are greater than evlis's divinity.

    How so? why are the odds for the existence of a higher power greater than the odds for the existence FSM? for all you know FSM could have been guiding evolution all along
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #187 - January 01, 2010, 09:52 PM

    That does not make you agnostic.  Atheists would be prepared to buy into this too ?


    Come on, I didn't say I believe this power exists. I just like the idea that it might exist. My stance really is 'i don't know either way'.

    Edit: Oh, do you mean that because I think that the higher power can be a field of energy and thus have a naturalistic explanation atheists might also believe it? Yea, but I don't think atheist is the correct term for me because atheists deny any sort of higher power at all? Plus my stance still is 'I don't know'.

    Quote
    So do you mean like god put these organs on purpose in order to make it easier for us to find out about evolution?


    Possibly, but please use higher power, god usually means god in a biblical sense whereas what i'm talking about can be an unintelligent field of energy.

    Quote
    How so? why are the odds for the existence of a higher power greater than the odds for the existence FSM? for all you know FSM could have been guiding evolution all along


    No I didn't talk about FSM, I spoke about the odds of there being a higher power VS the odds of Elvis being divine. The odds of a higher power being FSM vs it not being FSM can be equal/higher for all I know  Cheesy
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #188 - January 01, 2010, 09:54 PM

    This is worded in the usual Vatican obscurantism, but nothing in that paragraph rules out natural selection.  Its more of a hedge betting exercise, that's the Catholic Church saying that even if evolution is true it cannot explain the soul, therefore we still win.   Roll Eyes



    Yes, it rules out that the aspects of human beings that make them human were the result of random processes. Catholicism cannot dispense with the special creation of humans. It would lose its focal point.

    I know of another quote by the current pope but can't find it right now, where he specifically says that humans have been created differently than other animals.

    If you accept evolution you have to accept that consciousness is a product of pure natural processes, too and that it too evolves and is present in some form or another in other animals and that it did not simply appear at a certain time but evolved over time. And this would contradict a divine intention to create humans in the image of God as moral beings.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #189 - January 01, 2010, 09:55 PM

    I'm simply saying that the possibility that a higher power intervened in it cannot be discounted based on present evidence & understanding of things.

    Honestly, I don't believe that a higher power guided evolution, but I think that it might have, the possibility can't be ruled out at this time.

    Being agnostic just makes the most sense to me.


    Can you rule out that I guided evolution? Are you agnostic towards that question as well?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #190 - January 01, 2010, 09:56 PM

    Correct but then again, there are many more signs that point to the existence of a higher power than there are for Elvis being divine


    Like what?

    And what are properties of that "higher power"? Does it have any properties? And how do you know it has these properties?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #191 - January 01, 2010, 10:06 PM

    Possibly, but please use higher power, god usually means god in a biblical sense whereas what i'm talking about can be an unintelligent field of energy.

    In that case please dont use terms like this one bolded as it confuses the issue.  You are referring to a supernatural being, not a natural scientifically explainable phenomenon, this is what atheists are expecting.

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #192 - January 01, 2010, 10:09 PM

    Quote
    Can you rule out that I guided evolution? Are you agnostic towards that question as well?


    Like I said, no, I can't rule out that you guided it or a 3 headed unicorn guided it or that the higher power is dumb or a genocidal bastard. All those things could be true. All I'm saying is that there can be a possibility of a higher power existing, I don't claim to know who or what it is.

    Quote

    Quote
    Correct but then again, there are many more signs that point to the existence of a higher power than there are for Elvis being divine

    Like what?


    Just that we rely a lot on chance in everything about evolution and many other theories. We call it randomness/chance. But the chances of complex systems like the human brain or the eye, the plants, the galaxies, stars, sun, etc happening through random chance are a bit too low and hard for me to believe on face value unless its all conclusively, 100% proven by science and accepted by all scientists.

    Think about how many mutations have to happen correctly to form even the simplest of organs. I don't think that that kind of stuff can happen through sheer chance. There has to be either a pattern/explanation to it, such as the mutations being an adaption to the environment rather than being random, or some sort of higher power guiding it.

    Plus also consider things like dinosaurs being wiped out by an asterioid without which mammals couldn't have evolved the way they did and humans may not have been able to survive and dominate the planet.

    When you put together all those things such as:
    1) Creation of the universe
    2) Creation of earth with the environment necessary for life to function
    3) The way life evolved, all the mutations which had to happen for the complex organs to have formed
    4) The wiping out of dinosaurs as a result of which mammals survived and dominated the planet
    5) The tremendous variety of life, the colors of a peacock's tail, the elegance of the way in which life spreads, sexual reproduction, etc, and the human female body itself  Cheesy
    6) And many other things I'm missing

    I don't know about you, but when I think about all those things and all the events/mutations which needed to have happened for  those things to occur, I'm inclined to keep my mind open to at least the possibility of there being a higher power which played a part in guiding some of the things that have happened.

    And I do remain an agnostic, I don't believe in such a higher power, but I'm open to the possibility that it may exist.

    Quote
    Does it have any properties? And how do you know it has these properties?


    I do not know is the correct answer to both of those questions.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #193 - January 01, 2010, 10:11 PM

    In that case please dont use terms like this one bolded as it confuses the issue.  You are referring to a supernatural being, not a natural scientifically explainable phenomenon, this is what atheists are expecting.


    Well, I am also expecting something which will be naturally & scientifically explainable one day. But that something may have a goal/plan or it may have some intelligence. What do you want me to call it then if not a higher power?  Huh? Huh? Huh?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #194 - January 01, 2010, 10:14 PM

    read my post again and see the part I bolded.  then think.  then comment.  thanks.

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #195 - January 01, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Well, it might seem improbable. But it's not improbably. Natural selection AND the long time given explains how.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #196 - January 01, 2010, 10:23 PM

    read my post again and see the part I bolded.  then think.  then comment.  thanks.

    I did read it. You want me to not use terms like a field of energy whereas that's what I think the higher power thingy might be like. What do you want me to do?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #197 - January 01, 2010, 10:25 PM

    Well, it might seem improbable. But it's not improbably. Natural selection AND the long time given explains how.


    Natural selection itself depends on external phenomena. The changes in the environment which would weed out the species which are not needed.  If those changes in environment hadn't happened, dinosaurs may have been still roaming the earth in which case mammals may not have evolved to humans. This leaves a rational mind wondering if those changes could be due to some guided process.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #198 - January 01, 2010, 10:31 PM

    you seem so bent on this understanding that we, as humans, are so important to the universe.   ive noticed this in your other posts too. where do you get this from?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #199 - January 01, 2010, 10:33 PM

    Humans are completely unimportant. In a million years we will be gone and noone will even know we even existed.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #200 - January 01, 2010, 10:34 PM

    I'm just pointing out the many, many things which have happened to bring us into existence. Its not my fault that so many things have happened for human life to exist that it sounds like humans are so important to the universe.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #201 - January 01, 2010, 10:35 PM

    Humans are completely unimportant. In a million years we will be gone and noone will even know we even existed.


    My personal belief is that in a million years humans will have colonized the other planets as well and will be one of the dominant species of the planet. When I die I want to be frozen and brought back to life in 1000s of years and have the aging process reversed so I can witness what the world is like  yes

    Edit: On the other hand, if there are a few billion clones of you NineBerry I'm sure there'll be a nuclear apocalypse in the world as a self-fulfilling prophecy  wacko
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #202 - January 01, 2010, 10:37 PM

    You know what, all these things were also necessary for human flees to exist. Maybe, this didn't happen for humans, but for human flees. Pulex irritans might be the reason for the existence of this universe.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #203 - January 01, 2010, 10:38 PM

    My personal belief is that in a million years humans will have colonized the other planets as well and will be one of the dominant species of the planet. When I die I want to be frozen and brought back to life in 1000s of years and have the aging process reversed so I can witness what the world is like  yes


    In a million years it will not be humans any more. And they will not remember us. Why should they? A million years of history. Why remember some primitive animals these then far advanced beings have evolved from.

    We don't remember our "primitive" ancestors, either. Most likely though, we'll just die out.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #204 - January 01, 2010, 10:42 PM

    Quote
    In a million years it will not be humans any more. And they will not remember us. Why should they? A million years of history. Why remember some primitive animals these then far advanced beings have evolved from.

    We don't remember our "primitive" ancestors, either. Most likely though, we'll just die out.


    I'm sure we will die out if you keep saying that, Nineberry.  Roll Eyes.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #205 - January 01, 2010, 10:43 PM

    You know what, all these things were also necessary for human flees to exist. Maybe, this didn't happen for humans, but for human flees. Pulex irritans might be the reason for the existence of this universe.

    Afro

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #206 - January 01, 2010, 10:45 PM

    We are the most advanced of the species in the known universe. We are creating technologies that will give humans superhuman abilities soon. There are suits that can be used to fly, robotic arms which feel light but which can lift tons of weight easily, advanced weapons which nothing in the universe has been able to acquire so far.

    How can the slow process of random mutation and natural selection possibly cope with the exponential speed at which human beings are increasing their own powers and capacity?

    Get real please  Roll Eyes

    WE are the ultimate outcome of natural selection.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #207 - January 01, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Have you seen galaxies crashing into each other?

    Quote
    WE are the ultimate outcome of natural selection.


    I bet the human flea thinks the same.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #208 - January 01, 2010, 10:51 PM

    The only thing that will happen now IMO is sexual selection, the most good-looking humans will survive whereas the ugly ones will eventually die out. There may be other features in future human beings such as being able to breathe longer, survive better in certain situations, but there will be nothing that can threaten the species of human beings as it is now with its advanced weapons and technology.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #209 - January 01, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Apart from its advanced weapons and technology, that is.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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