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Theme Changer

 Topic: Some questions about evolution

 (Read 53814 times)
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #210 - January 01, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Nineberry, keep up the pessimistic fantasies. By the time the milky way collides with another galaxy, we will have predicted it and we will be out in a different galaxy. Mark my words. Unless you spread your pessimistic mindset to the rest of the planet and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    What the fuck's a human flea?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #211 - January 01, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Apart from its advanced weapons and technology, that is.   Tongue


    Anything they create we will create it better. The small changes like being able to breathe longer will not give them a benefit singificant enough to survive in a battle with us.

    Edit: P.S we will create technology that will allow us to breathe the same as them and duplicate the effects of their physical superiority in us.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #212 - January 01, 2010, 10:55 PM

    Anything they create we will create it better. The small changes like being able to breathe longer will not give them a benefit singificant enough to survive in a battle with us.


    What are you talking about?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #213 - January 01, 2010, 10:56 PM

    Cheetah means that it might be our weapons and technology that will bring us to an end.

    There will be no "us" in a million years. Either the human race dies out or it will turn into something else, maybe there will be people that consist 99% of technology. Or maybe even 100%.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #214 - January 01, 2010, 10:57 PM

    Anything they create we will create it better. The small changes like being able to breathe longer will not give them a benefit singificant enough to survive in a battle with us.

    Edit: P.S we will create technology that will allow us to breathe the same as them and duplicate the effects of their physical superiority in us.


    Who's that "they" you are talking about?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #215 - January 01, 2010, 10:58 PM

    This debate is so pointless. We're goner come 2012 anyways. Mark my words.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #216 - January 01, 2010, 10:59 PM

    No, it will not bring us to an end. We are already getting rid of philosophies such as racism, religion, etc which lead to hate and war.


    And Nineberry, you have no proof that humans won't be there in a million years, so sdfu with your pessimistic, doomful fantasies.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #217 - January 01, 2010, 10:59 PM

    This debate is so pointless. We're goner come 2012 anyways. Mark my words.

     Cheesy Cheesy You rock man, I seriously love you!  Cheesy

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #218 - January 01, 2010, 11:00 PM

    Who's that "they" you are talking about?


    The future species which you reckon humans may gradually evolve into.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #219 - January 01, 2010, 11:00 PM

    Quote from: liberated
    Possibly, but please use higher power, god usually means god in a biblical sense whereas what i'm talking about can be an unintelligent field of energy.

    If such an unintelligent entity exists, how can it guide evolution and purposely create vestigial organs just to make it more convenience for us to discover evolution? you know being unintelligent and all? why didn't it tell us about evolution? or even better why didn't just create us?  wacko I mean I'm sure creating us would be more timesaving than wasting billions of years orchestrating evolution?

    Quote from: liberated
    Just that we rely a lot on chance in everything about evolution and many other theories. We call it randomness/chance. But the chances of complex systems like the human brain or the eye, the plants, the galaxies, stars, sun, etc happening through random chance are a bit too low and hard for me to believe on face value unless its all conclusively, 100% proven by science and accepted by all scientists.

    Think about how many mutations have to happen correctly to form even the simplest of organs. I don't think that that kind of stuff can happen through sheer chance. There has to be either a pattern/explanation to it, such as the mutations being an adaption to the environment rather than being random, or some sort of higher power guiding it.

    Plus also consider things like dinosaurs being wiped out by an asterioid without which mammals couldn't have evolved the way they did and humans may not have been able to survive and dominate the planet.

    When you put together all those things such as:
    1) Creation of the universe
    2) Creation of earth with the environment necessary for life to function
    3) The way life evolved, all the mutations which had to happen for the complex organs to have formed
    4) The wiping out of dinosaurs as a result of which mammals survived and dominated the planet
    5) The tremendous variety of life, the colors of a peacock's tail, the elegance of the way in which life spreads, sexual reproduction, etc, and the human female body itself  Cheesy
    6) And many other things I'm missing

    I don't know about you, but when I think about all those things and all the events/mutations which needed to have happened for  those things to occur, I'm inclined to keep my mind open to at least the possibility of there being a higher power which played a part in guiding some of the things that have happened.

    And I do remain an agnostic, I don't believe in such a higher power, but I'm open to the possibility that it may exist.

    I'm open to that possibility also. But statistically speaking, any entity you're imagining doesn't necessarily have a better likelihood to exists than divine Elvis does? For all you know we could be living in the matrix and the black suits are just fucking with us.

    Quote from: liberated
    How can the slow process of random mutation and natural selection possibly cope with the exponential speed at which human beings are increasing their own powers and capacity?

    Great point. But still they will probably look back at us as primitive in a millions years time. I mean we might have been created by a far more advanced celestial civilization as an experiment and "they" are going to shut the project off tomorrow. "They" can even be the ones who have created the whole universe.


    P.S: this thread is getting mind-boggingly tedious.
     
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #220 - January 01, 2010, 11:01 PM

    All species go extinct. Ours is no exception. There is nothing "doomful" or "fantasy" about death. Nineberry is just making sense, you're not.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #221 - January 01, 2010, 11:05 PM

    How can the slow process of random mutation and natural selection possibly cope with the exponential speed at which human beings are increasing their own powers and capacity?

    Get real please  Roll Eyes

    WE are the ultimate outcome of natural selection.

    Depends on how you measure it.  You are using intelligence, some might use strength, some might use speed, some might use adaptability, some might just base it on numbers.  Personally I judge evolutionary success on number of years they have been around - sharks get that crown I think

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #222 - January 01, 2010, 11:12 PM

    Quote
    All species go extinct. Ours is no exception. There is nothing "doomful" or "fantasy" about death. Nineberry is just making sense, you're not.


    All species have gone extinct in the past, that does NOT dictate what should happen to our species. None of the species which have gotten extinct came even close to ours in terms of intelligence or achievements/technology.  We are the ones who control the fate of our species, and the only thing that can reasonably lead us to extinction is ourselves. With apocalyptic fantasies like the ones you're harboring it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  finmad
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #223 - January 01, 2010, 11:15 PM

    Depends on how you measure it.  You are using intelligence, some might use strength, some might use speed, some might use adaptability, some might just base it on numbers.  Personally I judge evolutionary success on number of years they have been around - sharks get that crown I think


    Random mutations lead to very slow, gradual improvements.

    Humans are already making exponential improvements in all of those factors, strength (robotic arms and bodies and suits), speed (cars, planes, future vehicles which will be even faster), adaptability (colonizing other planets, getting minerals from other planets, etc). The slow process of evolution cannot keep up with us.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #224 - January 01, 2010, 11:16 PM

    The future species which you reckon humans may gradually evolve into.


    So, again, this shows you haven't understood evolution. Those future humans would not exist in parallel to current humans. Humans on a whole will just change over time. All of them, turning into something different.

    So there will be no fight between "humans" and "future humans". One will just turn into the other.

    You know, it's a bit like growing up. I am 31 now. If I went back and visited my 5 year old version, I would be completely different from him. And when I went forth and visited my 70 year old version, he too would be completely different to me. Obviously by appearance but partially also by thinking and philosophy. Now I can't tell you a certain day when anything spectacular about me changed. If you pick myself at any given day after my birth and compare that version of me to the version a week later, you won't be able to spot any big difference.

    Evolution happens in the same way, there are no jumps, just gradual change over a long time.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #225 - January 01, 2010, 11:23 PM

    Quote
    You know, it's a bit like growing up. I am 31 now. If I went back and visited my 5 year old version, I would be completely different from him. And when I went forth and visited my 70 year old version, he too would be completely different to me. Obviously by appearance but partially also by thinking and philosophy. Now I can't tell you a certain day when anything spectacular about me changed. If you pick myself at any given day after my birth and compare that version of me to the version a week later, you won't be able to spot any big difference.


    Agree with this, but I do not think the human species will go extinct as a result of this evolution. We will continue to live, breed, and reproduce.

    In 1 million years, sure, there can be a species of humans which has different anatomy etc than present day humans. But any advantages of such anatomy will have long been neutralized/duplicated in humans as a result of our advanced technology in 1 million years. Hence it will not lead to a natural selection of the new species over humans.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #226 - January 02, 2010, 06:40 AM


    What is mutations?

    Mutations are the errors in the DNA copy process.

    Btw, not all adaptations are caused by mutation. Some are just a preference for a recessif gene. Usually those are almost predictable and can affect the entire specie in a predictable pattern.

    Organisms have built in error corrections to minimize such mutations in their DNA because there is no "Good" or "Bad" mutations.

    This is why i do not like the terms 'good' 'bad', i prefer 'beneficial' 'harmful'. As far as a body is concerned, all mutations are "bad" and to be avoided if possible.

    A mutations is deemed "Good" if it allows the organism to survive better in a particular environment.

    beneficial?

    Yes. Mutations are random in the sense that we cant predict which mutations will occur. But in another sense it is not random because not all mutations occur with equal probability.

    Even if they occur with equal probability, sometime they will occur and sometime they will not.

    Mutations is one of the way variance is added to the species genome. But there are other ways variations can be had. For example virus insert themselves into cells of other organism. Gene's can be added to the host genome in this way. In the early evolution from unicellular to multi-cellular this mechanism would have been more common.

    8% of our genome is traced to virus.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #227 - January 02, 2010, 09:25 AM

    The only thing that will happen now IMO is sexual selection, the most good-looking humans will survive whereas the ugly ones will eventually die out. There may be other features in future human beings such as being able to breathe longer, survive better in certain situations, but there will be nothing that can threaten the species of human beings as it is now with its advanced weapons and technology.

    Some traits, come along with dangerous traits. For example the guppy that becomes too colorful/attractive, will also attract the most predators. Same with humans, to achieve the 'beauty' standards, it can come with all kind of problems drugs/anorexia/weakness to UV rays/poisons/financial ruin, that we as a race, might just give up on looking good. Pretty much, we will all become British.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #228 - January 02, 2010, 09:32 AM

    All species have gone extinct in the past, that does NOT dictate what should happen to our species. None of the species which have gotten extinct came even close to ours in terms of intelligence or achievements/technology.  We are the ones who control the fate of our species, and the only thing that can reasonably lead us to extinction is ourselves. With apocalyptic fantasies like the ones you're harboring it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  finmad

    There is no proof or reason to think that nature favors high intelligence. Even within humanity, you have the least intelligent humans (poor/uneducated/starving) breeding the most. We do run the risk, of using 'intelligence', that gift/weapon from evolution, to become extinct.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #229 - January 02, 2010, 09:42 AM

    Has anyone ever seen the movie Idiocracy?

    I love that movie

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2682654/idiocracy_opening_sequence/

    Pretty much on Baal's point

    Here is the trailer to the movie...It is a million LOLz

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0yQunhOaU0&feature=PlayList&p=E9EBA6E7D4F3A4D8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #230 - January 02, 2010, 09:49 AM

    The following comment is not about evolution and I do not mean to hi-jack the thread but here goes:

    It is folly to think that we as a race, are destined to 'make it'. That our race is somehow protected and/or predestined. It is folly because it is dangerous. It is often the religious types as a society, that are so against pollution control, and who are for-execution. Why care about pollution when we are being looked after, when nothing we do matter because we are pre-destined? And it is ok to execute, since there is always a second chance, there is always a chance after we die, if we were wronged on earth, that someone will take care of us after.

    The reality is, it is beneficial for us as a specie, to live our lives like there is no Second chances.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #231 - January 02, 2010, 03:36 PM

    Quote
    It is folly to think that we as a race, are destined to 'make it'. That our race is somehow protected and/or predestined. It is folly because it is dangerous. It is often the religious types as a society, that are so against pollution control, and who are for-execution. Why care about pollution when we are being looked after, when nothing we do matter because we are pre-destined? And it is ok to execute, since there is always a second chance, there is always a chance after we die, if we were wronged on earth, that someone will take care of us after.

    The reality is, it is beneficial for us as a specie, to live our lives like there is no Second chances.


    I agree with you a thousand percent. But it is equally harmful to think that we are predestined to doom or that an apocalypse is inevitable because that will lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact remains that whether we as a species survive or not remains largely dependent on our own actions, do you disagree?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #232 - January 02, 2010, 03:51 PM

    There is no proof or reason to think that nature favors high intelligence. Even within humanity, you have the least intelligent humans (poor/uneducated/starving) breeding the most. We do run the risk, of using 'intelligence', that gift/weapon from evolution, to become extinct.


    The point I wanted to make is that we're highly adaptable. Take away our river waters and we will start to purify our sea water and drink that. Take away all mineral stock on earth and we'll start to mine minerals from stars. Overpopulate earth and we'll start to colonize moon and other planets. Throw an asteroid towards the earth and chances are we'll be able to destroy it mid-space with a powerful nuclear or hydrogen bomb.

    And because of our intelligence we are exponentially increasing our own strength, speed, and capabilities in a way that evolution will never be able to keep up with. Whatever advantage it will give to a new species in the future, chances are we would have duplicated it in us a long time ago as a result of our technology.

    Nature does favor adaptability and we humans are extremely adaptable.

    Also Imo poor people are just as intelligent as the rich ones. With more and more people getting education eventually most people will be able to make a positive contribution to society.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #233 - January 02, 2010, 04:01 PM

    I agree with you a thousand percent. But it is equally harmful to think that we are predestined to doom or that an apocalypse is inevitable because that will lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact remains that whether we as a species survive or not remains largely dependent on our own actions, do you disagree?


    That's wrong. I know that I will eventually die. I won't live forever. This doesn't mean that I don't want to live as long as possible. On the contrary, being aware that I will die means that I will care for my body and health and enjoy life as much as possible.

  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #234 - January 02, 2010, 04:07 PM

    I agree with you a thousand percent. But it is equally harmful to think that we are predestined to doom or that an apocalypse is inevitable because that will lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    You are a true believer in the power of human mind - do you believe you can outwit humble natural forces too, by the power of your mind?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #235 - January 02, 2010, 04:15 PM

    That's wrong. I know that I will eventually die. I won't live forever. This doesn't mean that I don't want to live as long as possible. On the contrary, being aware that I will die means that I will care for my body and health and enjoy life as much as possible.




    Your dying has nothing to do with the species dying. All species that have gotten extinct in the past did not have our levels of technology, intelligence, or adaptation. Hence its stupid to think that we have to follow in their footsteps 'just because'. And if people adopt that attitude that we're going to go extinct eventually, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy as it already is in the muslim world - they do little research or attempts to make the world better, because its all going to end anyways. The same attitude will lead to people not even trying to make their species survive.

    Quote
    You are a true believer in the power of human mind - do you believe you can outwit humble natural forces too, by the power of your mind?


    What are those natural forces you're referring to?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #236 - January 02, 2010, 04:55 PM

    What are those natural forces you're referring to?

    Those that are proposed by scientific theories

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #237 - January 02, 2010, 05:00 PM

    Quote
    Those that are proposed by scientific theories


    Which one specifically are you talking about? Like gravity?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #238 - January 02, 2010, 05:10 PM

    I did not say it was specific - i was talking generally.  If you think there are specific ones that the human mind can combat, then please elaborate..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #239 - January 02, 2010, 05:23 PM

    I'm not knowledgeable enough about all the physical laws to tell you for sure. But there don't seem to be any limits to what we can achieve. We already defy gravity when we fly in aircrafts for example. In the future there may also be boots/suits that lighten the effects of gravity and let you move faster.
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