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Theme Changer

 Topic: Some questions about evolution

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #240 - January 02, 2010, 05:43 PM

    I'm not knowledgeable enough about all the physical laws to tell you for sure. But there don't seem to be any limits to what we can achieve. We already defy gravity when we fly in aircrafts for example. In the future there may also be boots/suits that lighten the effects of gravity and let you move faster.

    oh dear, we dont defy gravity - its there even when we fly aircraft, its just that the upward force is greater than the downford force.

    Quote
    In the future there may also be boots/suits that lighten the effects of gravity and let you move faster.

    Cheetahs have ben running at these speeds for years, and birds have been flying when we were still in trees

    Quote
    But there don't seem to be any limits to what we can achieve.

    For instance if we really put our minds to it, can we defy death?  Can we actually change natural laws such as Gravitational force = GmM/r2

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #241 - January 02, 2010, 06:20 PM

    I know that we don't 'defy' gravity in the technical sense, but if you think of the overall effects, we have been able to fly despite the force of gravity which normally keeps us firmly planted to the ground. That was my point, we may not be able to defy the natural laws in the technical sense, but we can still harness those laws and accomplish anything we want to despite any laws which might be holding us back.

    Quote
    Cheetahs have ben running at these speeds for years, and birds have been flying when we were still in trees


    Yes but they're born with those capabilities whereas we produce those capabilities through technology that we create. I think that makes all the difference because if we can produce technology that lets us fly or travel faster than cheetahs run then we have the potential to create technology for virtually anything we want to do.

    Quote
    For instance if we really put our minds to it, can we defy death?  Can we actually change natural laws such as Gravitational force = GmM/r2


    We probably can't change natural laws such as gravity =GmM/r2. But we can find our way around those laws or to harness them in such a way that we accomplish what we want despite of those laws.

    As for death, there is already research being done to reverse the aging process in humans. If the cells recreate themselves it can lead to virtual immortality unless you get killed in an accident or such. There are also robotic hearts, eyes, etc being produced to replace an organ when it stops working. Its safe to assume that human lifespan may increase to 200-300 years within the next 300 years.

    For actually resurrecting someone who is dead, I can't tell you for sure but the body is there, the brain is there, the heart is there, and we have a lot of time. We may be able to find a way to bring back people who died in certain conditions to life eventually.

    This is why when i'm close to dying, I rather want to be frozen and kept until that time when the aging can be reversed rather than dying and getting buried/cremated  Smiley
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #242 - January 02, 2010, 06:25 PM

    Cool, so you accept scientific theories are set in stone, unless new evidence is brought to light.  I take it that you accept the evolutionary theory then, unless you see proof to the contrary?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #243 - January 02, 2010, 06:32 PM

    Of course I accept the evolutionary theory, what gave you the idea that I don't?

    What we were debating is that 'random mutations' may either be a result of adaption to the environment or they may be influenced by a higher power of some sort. My stance is still agnostic on those ideas, I'm open to either of them whichever presents more evidence in the future.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #244 - January 02, 2010, 06:36 PM

    No, evolutionary theory states that they are random mutations, NOT influenced by any higher power.  So where do you stand on this matter?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #245 - January 02, 2010, 06:44 PM

    I'm agnostic about that - they can be random but with elegant systems like sexual reproduction, the tremendous variety of life, complex systems like the nervous system, circulatory system, organs like the eye, heart, etc, the probabilities of those things happening through random mutation are too low for me to personally accept, hence I remain open to the possibility that they may have been influenced by a higher power of some sort. The ultimate Boeing 747 analogy rings very true to me.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #246 - January 02, 2010, 06:51 PM

    What about you, what are your views? I've seen you mention that you're an agnostic?
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #247 - January 02, 2010, 06:59 PM

    I am agnostic about the existence of a supernatural creator, although I am pretty sure it doesnt exist. 

    I accept all scientific theories.  Unless I know more than the scientists, then as a matter of course I go along with what they say.  I certainly dont give weight to 2 thousand year old religious myths in equal and opposite measure, to those that have been proven to exist by the scientific method.

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #248 - January 02, 2010, 07:24 PM

    I think science's choice of calling the mutations 'random' may be a way to say that the scientists don't know the reason behind the mutations or any pattern behind them, hence they will call them random. This doesn't say that the randomness could not have been influenced by a higher power IMO.

    I also don't believe in the existence of a supernatural diety. I think that if there's any higher power it will have a scientific explanation one day.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #249 - January 02, 2010, 08:44 PM

    I think science's choice of calling the mutations 'random' may be a way to say that the scientists don't know the reason behind the mutations or any pattern behind them, hence they will call them random. This doesn't say that the randomness could not have been influenced by a higher power IMO.

    No, you really need to learn more about Theory of Evolution before commenting on it
    Quote
    I also don't believe in the existence of a supernatural diety. I think that if there's any higher power it will have a scientific explanation one day.

    Then you are an atheist, NOT an agnostic

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #250 - January 02, 2010, 09:20 PM

    I'm agnostic about that - they can be random but with elegant systems like sexual reproduction, the tremendous variety of life, complex systems like the nervous system, circulatory system, organs like the eye, heart, etc, the probabilities of those things happening through random mutation are too low for me to personally accept

    As you know these things just dont appear, they occur over millions & millions of generations, bit by bit.  It took 13 billion years to get to this stage!  Its not a figure that is comprehendable, that is why I think you struggle to envisage it.

    How do you explain the ecoli evidence (and its not the only piece)?  A chance mutation at generation 20,000, when separated does not reoccur again. Unless you have evidence to counter it, and as you are not an expert in this field, then dont you think its wiser to be more that 50i% for it?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #251 - January 02, 2010, 10:37 PM

    Quote
    As you know these things just dont appear, they occur over millions & millions of generations, bit by bit.  It took 13 billion years to get to this stage!  Its not a figure that is comprehendable, that is why I think you struggle to envisage it.


    Yep, but even over billions of years, this stuff occurring by plain chance seems too improbable.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the current explanation for the formation of the nervous system, circulatory system, the system of sexual reproduction, feeding of babies from the mother's milk in mammals, etc is that these things were developed over hundreds of millions of years, over thousands of random mutations, each one which improved the systems just a bit more, but each mutation was random and happened just by chance.

    There has to be another explanation for why those mutations followed such a seemingly intelligent/self-improvising course, they can't just be random imo. You don't get so perfect and complex through mere chance alone.

    Quote
    How do you explain the ecoli evidence (and its not the only piece)?  A chance mutation at generation 20,000, when separated does not reoccur again.


    One important observation to make about that experiment is that apart from that one mutation all 12 populations of the bacteria developed seemingly the same mutations. If they were all random, I would think that there'd be several changes in the mutations each population developed over 20,000 generations if the mutations were indeed random, no?

    So all mutations are mostly similar, and then suddenly one beneficial mutation occurs in one population.

    I would say this neither proves, nor disproves the influence of a higher power over the mutations. It can be taken as a sign of either depending on the view point you take.

    Quote
    Unless you have evidence to counter it, and as you are not an expert in this field, then dont you think its wiser to be more that 50i% for it?


    Unless there is evidence to prove that there is no influence of a higher power over the mutations, I think its unscientific to close your mind to that possibility. I'm not one to follow the herd by any means though, just the fact that the experts believe something isn't enough for me to not pay attention to what my mind is telling me, i.e its too improbable for all the complex systems of life to have been created through chance alone.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #252 - January 02, 2010, 10:50 PM

    No, you really need to learn more about Theory of Evolution before commenting on it


    Why are random mutations called random if not because we don't know what causes them or that they don't follow any pattern and randomly occur?

    Quote
    Then you are an atheist, NOT an agnostic


    Atheists believe there is no higher power of any sort, while I believe there may be a higher power but there would be a scientific explanation behind it. I think that makes me more of an agnostic than an atheist.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #253 - January 02, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Yep, but even over billions of years, this stuff occurring by plain chance seems too improbable.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the current explanation for the formation of the nervous system, circulatory system, the system of sexual reproduction, feeding of babies from the mother's milk in mammals, etc is that these things were developed over hundreds of millions of years, over thousands of random mutations, each one which improved the systems just a bit more, but each mutation was random and happened just by chance.  

    There has to be another explanation for why those mutations followed such a seemingly intelligent/self-improvising course, they can't just be random imo. You don't get so perfect and complex through mere chance alone.

    Yep, but remember its not as straightforward as that.  Broadly speaking each mutation is self-checked, and if its no good its discarded.  So you can see it that way as you wish, the self checking procedure can be seen as a 'higher power' if you want to break it down in that fashion in order to simplify it.

    Quote
    One important observation to make about that experiment is that apart from that one mutation all 12 populations of the bacteria developed seemingly the same mutations. If they were all random, I would think that there'd be several changes in the mutations each population developed over 20,000 generations if the mutations were indeed random, no?

    If you thow a coin a billion times, is it a coincidence that you will get approx 500,000 heads & 500,000 tails?

    Quote
    So all mutations are mostly similar, and then suddenly one beneficial mutation occurs in one population.

    I would say this neither proves, nor disproves the influence of a higher power over the mutations. It can be taken as a sign of either depending on the view point you take.

     
    No, if it occurred in one population at one time, and then the same population was removed prior to the change and it did not repeat, with all else the same it shows there is no fixed phenomenon taking place.  Although a random one makes sense.

    In accordance with Nineberry's example, it required a non-directly beneficial mutation to take place before the nitrate digestion took place.  (Similar to development of organs in humans)  Thats why it did not occur again at the same time.  If you think the organism 'knew' that the first step would lead to the beneficial next step, you need to explain a theory behind this intelligence/guiding hand in ecoli bacteria.

    When you are done explaining that, then also explain why so many non-beneficial mutations occur in humans.  From siamese twins, weak hearts, downs syndrome etc etc, far more than any beneficial mutations.  In fact I rarely see people with x ray vision, hearts that live onto 200 years age etc.  Why not?  
    Quote
    Unless there is evidence to prove that there is no influence of a higher power over the mutations, I think its unscientific to close your mind to that possibility. I'm not one to follow the herd by any means though, just the fact that the experts believe something isn't enough for me to not pay attention to what my mind is telling me, i.e its too improbable for all the complex systems of life to have been created through chance alone.


    According to your theory, would you expect mutations to take place in nature that are detrimental to the individual, but not towards the reproductive success.  I cant think of an example at the moment, but something I would expect to occur according to evolutionary theory.  If I can prove this to you, would this further the argument towards natural selection for you?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #254 - January 02, 2010, 11:30 PM

    Quote
    Yep, but remember its not as straightforward as that.  Broadly speaking each mutation is self-checked, and if its no good its discarded.  So you can see it that way as you wish, the self checking procedure can be seen as a 'higher power' if you want to break it down in that fashion in order to simplify it.


    Yes, but this leaves one asking how the self-checking procedure was created in the first place, was such an efficient system also a result of a random mutation?

    Quote
    If you thow a coin a billion times, is it a coincidence that you will get approx 500,000 heads & 500,000 tails?


    But throwing a coin in the air cannot create the complex organs and systems found in every living being on earth.

    Quote
    No, if it occurred in one population at one time, and then the same population was removed prior to the change and it did not repeat, with all else the same it shows there is no fixed phenomenon taking place.  Although a random one makes sense.


    Sure it may make sense based on our current scientific knowledge, but it doesn't disprove that the first mutation could have been a result of the influence of a higher power, and until that is disproved I will keep my mind open to the possibility.

    Quote
    In accordance with Nineberry's example, it required a non-directly beneficial mutation to take place before the nitrate digestion took place.  (Similar to development of organs in humans)  Thats why it did not occur again at the same time.  If you think the organism 'knew' that the first step would lead to the beneficial next step, you need to explain a theory behind this intelligence/guiding hand in ecoli bacteria.

    The organism didn't know that the non-directly beneficial mutation would lead to the development of nitrate digestion, but if there is a higher power influencing/guiding the evolution it would definitely know that.

    It would also not be correct to speculate that the change which occurred around gen 20,000 was non-beneficial until they find out exactly what that change was. Right now its unknown what that change was I think.

    Quote
    When you are done explaining that, then also explain why so many non-beneficial mutations occur in humans.  From siamese twins, weak hearts, downs syndrome etc etc, far more than any beneficial mutations.  In fact I rarely see people with x ray vision, hearts that live onto 200 years age etc.  Why not?  


    Its exactly what I would like to know, why do all mutations which occur in humans and animals are harmful or non-beneficial, why aren't there any mutations which are beneficial to humans? If they are indeed random with no guiding force behind them, I would think that there should've been at least a few mutations occurring in humans which can be thought of as beneficial.

    Quote
    According to your theory, would you expect mutations to take place in nature that are detrimental to the individual, but not towards the reproductive success.  I cant think of an example at the moment, but something I would expect to occur according to evolutionary theory.  If I can prove this to you, would this further the argument towards natural selection for you?


    I don't really have a theory, all I have is a possibility which I'm not discarding. And it won't really further the argument towards natural selection because it still leaves a lot of things unexplained like how the complex life on earth could have been formed through chance alone?

    I normally laugh at creationist arguments but the Being 747 argument rings true for me. If you put all the equipment needed to build a boeing 747 in a garage and for 13 billion years a storm blows through that garage, it still won't be able to assemble the boeing 747 by all the the equipment assembling into place by chance.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #255 - January 02, 2010, 11:58 PM

    But throwing a coin in the air cannot create the complex organs and systems found in every living being on earth.


    The complex organs did not develop by chance, they developed through millions of years of natural selection in a specific environment.

    There were creatures that were far more complex and amazing then us and they were wiped out millions of years before the first human walked the earth.  What has set us apart is our developed brain.

    Sure it may make sense based on our current scientific knowledge, but it doesn't disprove that the first mutation could have been a result of the influence of a higher power, and until that is disproved I will keep my mind open to the possibility.


    Typical god of the gaps argument to be honest.  It was thought that a higher power accounted for all the other processes before the fog was lifted.  But your reasoning is not wrong, the important thing is that entertain the idea that a higher power might not necessarily responsible, but then again there is also a chance that you could be right

    The organism didn't know that the non-directly beneficial mutation would lead to the development of nitrate digestion, but if there is a higher power influencing/guiding the evolution it would definitely know that.


    Evolution is not guided, Some mutations give organisms traits that allow them to survive better then others.  There are bacteria that survive in the most hostile of conditions where no other organisms could survive.  Other organisms utilised other mechanisms which led to more development as the environment permitted.  I still don't have sufficient knowledge on the subject

    Its exactly what I would like to know, why do all mutations which occur in humans and animals are harmful or non-beneficial, why aren't there any mutations which are beneficial to humans? If they are indeed random with no guiding force behind them, I would think that there should've been at least a few mutations occurring in humans which can be thought of as beneficial.


    They occur but the effects are tiny.  With years and years of natural selection and with more people having the same traits, the effect becomes more evident.  The mutation is only beneficial in the context of the environment the organism is in

    I normally laugh at creationist arguments but the Being 747 argument rings true for me. If you put all the equipment needed to build a boeing 747 in a garage and for 13 billion years a storm blows through that garage, it still won't be able to assemble the boeing 747 by all the the equipment assembling into place by chance.


    That's because evolution is not all down to chance

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #256 - January 03, 2010, 12:02 AM

    Why are random mutations called random if not because we don't know what causes them or that they don't follow any pattern and randomly occur?

    Ans: the latter.  Like i said you should know this, before you are prepared to so vigorously debate it.  

    Quote
    Atheists believe there is no higher power of any sort, while I believe there may be a higher power but there would be a scientific explanation behind it. I think that makes me more of an agnostic than an atheist.

    No, agnostics engage the possibility of supernatural influence (i.e. God), atheists only see a scientific explanation, such as the one you are propose.  Nothing wrong with that though Afro


    But throwing a coin in the air cannot create the complex organs and systems found in every living being on earth.

    Just highlighting your surprise at how random events over time produce a fixed result.  Just pointing it can happen to such surprising accuracy. Do you want me to prove there is no invisible hand fixing the outcome of the coin too?


    It would also not be correct to speculate that the change which occurred around gen 20,000 was non-beneficial until they find out exactly what that change was. Right now its unknown what that change was I think.

    No, they said the change was inconsequential if I remember rightly.

    Its exactly what I would like to know, why do all mutations which occur in humans and animals are harmful or non-beneficial, why aren't there any mutations which are beneficial to humans? If they are indeed random with no guiding force behind them, I would think that there should've been at least a few mutations occurring in humans which can be thought of as beneficial.

    I don't really have a theory, all I have is a possibility which I'm not discarding. And it won't really further the argument towards natural selection because it still leaves a lot of things unexplained like how the complex life on earth could have been formed through chance alone?

    I normally laugh at creationist arguments but the Being 747 argument rings true for me. If you put all the equipment needed to build a boeing 747 in a garage and for 13 billion years a storm blows through that garage, it still won't be able to assemble the boeing 747 by all the the equipment assembling into place by chance.

    Wrong analogy, to build a boeing 747 from random bits flying in the wind is pure chance.  Natural selection is not chance, there is an invisible guiding hand, and it self check after each part.  After each part is assembled, the guiding hand says yes, or rejects it and another part is put on.  After 13 billion years, you would build a 747.  In fact it would probably be less than a billion, but we can work it out if you like.

    Interestingly enough the specialisation of the 747 reminds me of natural selection applied to scientific knowledge or memes

    Yes, but this leaves one asking how the self-checking procedure was created in the first place, was it also a result of a random mutation?

    Excellent, we agree  Afro   The second part of your questions is about abiogeneneis.  This is more complex.

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #257 - January 03, 2010, 12:19 AM

    Quote
    The complex organs did not develop by chance, they developed through millions of years of natural selection in a specific environment.


    There were 2 things happening there:
    1) A creature developed a certain mutation
    2) A circumstance in the environment led to that mutation/trait becoming beneficial for that creature

    I think it may be improbable for the right circumstances and the right mutation to happen at the same time, consistently for billions of years and lead to the formation of the complex systems and organs and the immense variety of life. Hence I'm keeping my mind open to the possibility that there may be another influencing factor behind it.

    Quote
    There were creatures that were far more complex and amazing then us and they were wiped out millions of years before the first human walked the earth.  What has set us apart is our developed brain.


    That doesn't disprove the possibility of a higher power influencing evolution really. Did nothing good come out of those extinctions?

    Quote
    the important thing is that entertain the idea that a higher power might not necessarily responsible, but then again there is also a chance that you could be right


    Yes of course, by all means it should be investigated thoroughly and be considered that a higher power may not have been responsible

    Quote
    Evolution is not guided

    Belief, not a scientific fact.

    Quote
    There are bacteria that survive in the most hostil
    e of conditions where no other organisms could survive.

    Yes, but why did that mutation occur in the bacteria which helps them survive in their environment? Was it sheer chance that put the bacteria in that hostile environment and also gave them the ability to survive there?

    Quote
    They occur but the effects are tiny.  With years and years of natural selection and with more people having the same traits, the effect becomes more evident.  The mutation is only beneficial in the context of the environment the organism is in


    I don't think a mutation like a disfigured body, a weak heart, etc will be beneficial under any circumstance. Secondly, can you point to any tiny beneficial mutations that have been observed in humans? Third, how come the bad mutations like a disfigured body or twins with their heads joined together happen abruptly and are so noticeable, but the beneficial mutations are so tiny that they're barely noticeable? If its all random they should have the same chances of happening?

    Quote
    That's because evolution is not all down to chance


    Random mutations are.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #258 - January 03, 2010, 12:27 AM

    That's because evolution is not all down to chance

    You what  Huh?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #259 - January 03, 2010, 12:30 AM

    Ans: the latter.  Like i said you should know this, before you are prepared to so vigorously debate it.  


    I know this. My point is: random mutations are called random because they occur randomly. Hence we don't see any pattern behind them. Hence we do not know what causes them. Hence there may be a guiding power behind them. Hence the theory of evolution doesn't prove/disprove whether the BENEFICIAL mutations are guided or random.

    No, agnostics engage the possibility of supernatural influence (i.e. God), atheists only see a scientific explanation, such as the one you are propose.  Nothing wrong with that though Afro

     Kiss Yea, but I think if I call myself an atheist and at the same time say that I'm open to the possibility of there being a scientifically explainable higher power I'll get told I'm not an atheist.

    Wrong analogy, to build a boeing 747 from random bits flying in the wind is pure chance.  Natural selection is not chance, there is an invisible guiding hand, and it self check after each part.  After each part is assembled, the guiding hand says yes, or rejects it and another part is put on.  After 13 billion years, you would build a 747.  In fact it would probably be less than a billion, but we can work it out if you like.


    I think the analogy stays because:

    1) How did that invisible guiding hand (I believe you're talking about the self-checking of DNA during the copying of DNA, right?) come into existence? If a storm blew for 13 billion years through a garage containing the equipment for building an intelligent computer/CPU of a computer such as one which would be required to execute the code for a complex procedure like that invisible hand you're referring to, would that be enough for an intelligent system like this to have been formed?

    2) In order for humans to have come about with their brilliant minds, not only would the right mutations have to have occurred throughout the 13 billion years in all creatures that were the ancestor of humans, but also the right environment / circumstances would have to be present which would lead to the natural selection of the traits which would lead to the formation of humans. This reduces the odds of evolution working on its own with no outside influence even more.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #260 - January 03, 2010, 12:43 AM

    I know this. My point is: random mutations are called random because they occur randomly. Hence we don't see any pattern behind them. Hence we do not know what causes them. Hence there may be a guiding power behind them.

    You mean the guiding power makes them random  Huh?
    Quote
    Kiss Yea, but I think if I call myself an atheist and at the same time say that I'm open to the possibility of there being a scientifically explainable higher power I'll get told I'm not an atheist.

    Let them call you what they want, there is a certain definition of God, and its supernatural.  Everything else falls under the scientific remit, and thats an atheist.  Start a thread on it and see whether fellow atheists agree.

    Quote
    I think the analogy stays because:

    1) How did that invisible guiding hand (I believe you're talking about the self-checking of DNA during the copying of DNA, right?) come into existence?

    [/quote]
    No re-read my post as you misunderstood it.  I mean self-checking to mean natural selection.  If a mutation is good for the future generation, its stays, as it is more likely to reproduce it.  If its no good, then it is less likely to be successful at reproducing, and thus rejected.  This is a guiding, self-checking invisible hand that you so often refer too.

    Along with this, please answer this:

    Quote from: islame
    According to your theory, would you expect mutations to take place in nature that are detrimental to the individual, but not towards the reproductive success.  I cant think of an example at the moment, but something I would expect to occur according to evolutionary theory.  If I can prove this to you, would this further the argument towards natural selection for you?


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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #261 - January 03, 2010, 12:44 AM

    There were 2 things happening there:
    1) A creature developed a certain mutation
    2) A circumstance in the environment led to that mutation/trait becoming beneficial for that creature


    Actually its not like that, it was more a case of simple systems developing into far more complex ones.  Things really took off with the appearance of the first aerobically respiring organisms, scientists think that this happened through the endosymbiotic process theory.

    I think it may be improbable for the right circumstances and the right mutation to happen at the same time, consistently for billions of years and lead to the formation of the complex systems and organs and the immense variety of life. Hence I'm keeping my mind open to the possibility that there may be another influencing factor behind it.


    Fair enough, complex systems arose because the environment permitted it though.  They arose because they allow a greater chance of survival and adaptability.

    That doesn't disprove the possibility of a higher power influencing evolution really. Did nothing good come out of those extinctions?


    I don't see why it was a good or a bad thing.  There was a radical change in the environment and they could not adapt, hence they all died.  Species are becoming extinct all the time

    Belief, not a scientific fact.


    I didn't portray it as a scientific fact.  All I said was that people also attributed divine intervention to other things before they discovered the real processes behind them


    Yes, but why did that mutation occur in the bacteria which helps them survive in their environment? Was it sheer chance that put the bacteria in that hostile environment and also gave them the ability to survive there?


    That is still a vague area for me, I'll admit.  There are many theories on how the first bacteria came about here.  What is known is that it began in the water.

    I don't think a mutation like a disfigured body, a weak heart, etc will be beneficial under any circumstance. Secondly, can you point to any tiny beneficial mutations that have been observed in humans? Third, how come the bad mutations like a disfigured body or twins with their heads joined together happen abruptly, but the beneficial mutations are so tiny that they're barely noticeable? If its all random they should have the same chances of happening?


    It really depends on which genes have mutated and the type of mutation and that what level it happens during development of the embryo.   It is down to many factors.   This is a whole subject on its own.

      One mutation I can think of is the altered haemoglobin in sickle cell patients.  If the person is heterozygous for the condition it is beneficial because it gives more protection against the malaria parasite.  If the person is homozygous though it is a disadvantage.  My explanations are not going to do any justice to this topic.  You should read some of Dawkin's books

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #262 - January 03, 2010, 12:45 AM

    You what  Huh?


    Evolution is not simply a process of pure chance..  I thought you knew that.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #263 - January 03, 2010, 12:48 AM

    Depends what you mean..  Do you mean natural selection is exactly that - a process of selection, rather than a random process?  Or something else like liberated explained?

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  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #264 - January 03, 2010, 12:51 AM

    Lets put it this way and simplify it, random mutations do play a part, but natural selection ensures that a large number of those mutations that are beneficial are passed on.  Creatures with disadvantages have lower chance of surviving and generally don't live to pass on their genes.  So it is not all random

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #265 - January 03, 2010, 12:58 AM


      One mutation I can think of is the altered haemoglobin in sickle cell anaemia  patients.  If the person is heterozygous for the condition it is beneficial because it gives more protection against the malaria parasite.  If the person is homozygous though it is a disadvantage.  My explanations are not going to do any justice to this topic.  You should read some of Dawkin's books




    Made a grave and stupid mistake, its sickle cell anaemia.. not cystic fibrosis...  I just got back from the pub and I've been drinking all day.  So this is a bit heavy for me right now.  Can't believe I wrote that.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #266 - January 03, 2010, 01:01 AM

    You mean the guiding power makes them random  Huh?


    1) The mutations which are harmful/neutral can indeed be random
    2) It may be possible that a guiding power is behind the changes in the environment and the benefical mutations happening at the same time.

    As an example, consider this:
    - A certain species of apes develops a non-beneficial mutation which will make it (or one of its descendent's) more suitable for walking on 2 feet
    - A collision occurs which causes the landscape to be changed from thick rainforests where swinging from trees is the best way for apes to move, to open grasslands where walking on 2 feet is more effective
    - Over the next millions of years that species of apes is given an advantage in the energy they save because of their walking on 2 feet mutation

    I'm saying that the events i've described above (the initial non-beneficial mutation, the change in the landscape, etc) may have had the influence of a higher power which caused them all to occur at exactly the right time.

    Quote
    No re-read my post as you misunderstood it.  I mean self-checking to mean natural selection.  If a mutation is good for the future generation, its stays, as it is more likely to reproduce it.  If its no good, then it is less likely to be successful at reproducing, and thus rejected.  This is a guiding, self-checking invisible hand that you so often refer too.


    Right, but my 2nd point of the right circumstances/changes in the environment happening which would lead to the natural selection of some traits happening, stays and its for this reason that the Boeing 747 analogy also stays.

    If you think of the number of times that natural selection would have had to rely on changes on the environment to cause those traits which which are beneficial to be selected, I think its odds equal up compared to the Boeing 747 analogy.

    Secondly, natural selection only describes how the successful mutations spread and the unsuccessful ones are weeded out. The actual formation of the complex systems like the respiratory, nervous, circulatory system, etc continues to happen by chance which is the same as the Boeing 747 being formed due to the blowing of wind inside a garage.

    Quote
    According to your theory, would you expect mutations to take place in nature that are detrimental to the individual, but not towards the reproductive success.  I cant think of an example at the moment, but something I would expect to occur according to evolutionary theory.  If I can prove this to you, would this further the argument towards natural selection for you?


    I'm not sure I understand fully but as an example of the kind of thing you're referring to, I think it would be a man who was very tall and this led to an uncomfortable life for him but led him to fuck a lot but he had an early death? Is that what you're referring to? If so, how would that contribute towards natural selection for me any more than the many other genetic disabilities that occur in humans?

    Also, read again the example I gave at the top of this post as the kind of phenomena which may have been guided.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #267 - January 03, 2010, 01:22 AM

    I'm still failing to see why, if both the beneficial mutations which lead to the development of a new organ/biological system and the neutral/harmful mutations have an equal chance of occurring, then why we do not see as many beneficial random mutations occurring which lead to formation of new organs in any present species, as we see the various deformities in humans and animals, and also why the effects of a bad mutation are so noticeable but a beneficial mutation is usually extremely tiny, barely noticieable.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #268 - January 03, 2010, 01:25 AM


    As an example, consider this:
    - A certain species of apes develops a non-beneficial mutation which will make it (or one of its descendent's) more suitable for walking on 2 feet
    - A collision occurs which causes the landscape to be changed from thick rainforests where swinging from trees is the best way for apes to move, to open grasslands where walking on 2 feet is more effective
    - Over the next millions of years that species of apes is given an advantage in the energy they save because of their walking on 2 feet mutation

    I'm saying that the events i've described above (the initial non-beneficial mutation, the change in the landscape, etc) may have had the influence of a higher power which caused them all to occur at exactly the right time.


    It does not really happen that way.  If the mutation took place in an environment in which it was disadvantageous it chances of it surviving and mating are much lower, so the numbers of organisms with that mutation are quite low.  If the environment changes the 'balance of power' shifts and it potentially favours the organisms with the said mutation.  The numbers grow, there are more organisms with that mutation mating, and the mutation becomes more pronounced.  It is like sailing, sometimes the wind is on your side, some times it hinders you but is favourable for someone in another direction.  By the way be aware that walking on two legs did not simply come about in an instant.


    Right, but my 2nd point of the right circumstances/changes in the environment happening which would lead to the natural selection of some traits happening, stays and its for this reason that the Boeing 747 analogy also stays.

    If you think of the number of times that natural selection would have had to rely on changes on the environment to cause those traits which which are beneficial to be selected, I think its odds equal up compared to the Boeing 747 analogy.


    No in the Boeing 747 one event brings about a whole complex thing in an instant, evolution is a gradual process.  There is no complex organism that appears suddenly.

    Secondly, natural selection only describes how the successful mutations spread and the unsuccessful ones are weeded out. The actual formation of the complex systems like the respiratory, nervous, circulatory system, etc continues to happen by chance which is the same as the Boeing 747 being formed due to the blowing of wind inside a garage.


    No they didn't happen by chance that's the thing, through natural selection and because the environment allowed it there was more 'specialisation' of certain traits.  They became more refined, more complex and allowed the organism to adapt better to its particular environment, there for the number of organisms with that trait grew.  

    I'm not sure I understand fully but as an example of the kind of thing you're referring to, I think it would be a man who was very tall and this led to an uncomfortable life for him but led him to fuck a lot but he had an early death? Is that what you're referring to? If so, how would that contribute towards natural selection for me any more than the many other genetic disabilities that occur in humans?


    No, if being tall was a disadvantage then he would not have survived long enough to fuck and reproduce, or at least not many tall men would have.  To understand what I was talking about you have to have some knowledge of genetics.  You should read about dominant and recessive alleles, for one.  I really am not in a good state to give an explanation I'm afraid.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Some questions about evolution
     Reply #269 - January 03, 2010, 01:30 AM

    I'm still failing to see why, if both the beneficial mutations which lead to the development of a new organ/biological system and the neutral/harmful mutations have an equal chance of occurring, then why we do not see as many beneficial random mutations occurring which lead to formation of new organs in any present species, as we see the various deformities in humans and animals, and also why the effects of a bad mutation are so noticeable but a beneficial mutation is usually extremely tiny, barely noticieable.


    Again genetic mutation is a whole subject on its own, there are different types of mutations.  Some are noticeable and some are not.  Neither beneficial mutations nor the bad ones have to be noticeable.  It is not as you are describing it.  It all depends on what has been mutated during replication.  Mutation is affected by many, many factors.  This is a whole subject on its own.  It take it that you don't know much about the DNA and genetics.  Read more about genetics, and you will see how it will fall into place.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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