An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All

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- panoptic
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An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
OP - December 31, 2009, 10:45 PM

The last decade was shit. Hopefully this decade will be better.

The ethic we need is autonomy. We can do it!

We are creative... Free....!

Fuck determinism. Fuck the state, fuck dogmas, fuck vulgar materialist science, fuck reductionism, fuck racism, fuck sexism, fuck essentialism.

Love you all.

Revolution, communism, solidarity... freedom!

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #1 - December 31, 2009, 11:01 PM

Oh yeah.... idealism too... Catholicism [a very specific disease that is incurable and must therefore be eradicated], memetics... superiorism and biggotry...

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- Iraqi Atheist
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #2 - December 31, 2009, 11:03 PM

What about liberty and individualism?
- lightrays
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #3 - December 31, 2009, 11:04 PM

In true ex style you seem to be defining yourself by everything you are not. Such front line radicalism is soo exciting and deep
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #4 - December 31, 2009, 11:06 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on December 31, 2009, 11:03 PM
What about liberty and individualism?

Liberty (libertarian communism), yes! Individualism is a 19th century economistic idea that has nothing to do with individuality.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #5 - December 31, 2009, 11:07 PM

Quote from: lightrays on December 31, 2009, 11:04 PM
In true ex style you seem to be defining yourself by everything you are not. Such front line radicalism is soo exciting and deep

Yeah. I exclaim against what I am opposed to. I'd say that is legitimate.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #6 - December 31, 2009, 11:37 PM

And you know what I am for, O brave purveyor of radical ideas.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #7 - December 31, 2009, 11:42 PM

no
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #8 - December 31, 2009, 11:44 PM

communism, autonomy, participatory democracy... freedom!

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- Iblis
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #9 - December 31, 2009, 11:53 PM

Quote from: panoptic on December 31, 2009, 10:45 PM
The last decade was shit. Hopefully this decade will be better.

The ethic we need is autonomy. We can do it!

We are creative... Free....!

Fuck determinism. Fuck the state, fuck dogmas, fuck vulgar materialist science, fuck reductionism, fuck racism, fuck sexism, fuck essentialism.

Love you all.

Revolution, communism, solidarity... freedom!

..the fuck?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #10 - December 31, 2009, 11:55 PM

Whats wrong with memetics?

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #11 - December 31, 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 31, 2009, 11:53 PM
..the fuck?

you heard

be free!

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #12 - December 31, 2009, 11:56 PM

Quote from: King Tut on December 31, 2009, 11:55 PM
Whats wrong with memetics?

it's vulgar materialist, pseudo-scientific bollocks.

updated platonic forms, with genes thrown in. BOLLOCKS

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #13 - January 01, 2010, 12:00 AM

1

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #14 - January 01, 2010, 12:00 AM

2

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #15 - January 01, 2010, 12:00 AM

3

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #16 - January 01, 2010, 12:01 AM

1000

Happy new nizzle f'shizzle!

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #17 - January 01, 2010, 12:03 AM

Quote from: panoptic on December 31, 2009, 11:56 PM
it's vulgar materialist, pseudo-scientific bollocks.

updated platonic forms, with genes thrown in. BOLLOCKS

Dawkin's explains it pretty well in A Devil's Chaplain it is observed you do inherit mannerisms.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #18 - January 01, 2010, 12:06 AM

bollocks do you

he's a moron

not that that demonstrates memetics, the subject of which (memes) doesn't exist. hence it being a psuedo-science.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #19 - January 01, 2010, 12:21 AM

Genetic determinism:

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #20 - January 01, 2010, 12:41 AM

Quote from: panoptic on December 31, 2009, 11:06 PM
Liberty (libertarian communism), yes! Individualism is a 19th century economistic idea that has nothing to do with individuality.

I Know what it is and I hold it dear.

Now I have two questions and while I'm bound to disagree with you, I have to stress this is not a debate. I just wanted answers to these questions from a person who is well-informed in political ideologies such as yourself. If you have no interest then ignore the Qs.

1-Isn't communism collectivist in nature? and if so, isn't communism by proxy against liberty since collectivism in itself is at odds with liberty?
By liberty I mean autonomy, self-determination, right to choose, and freedom from any kind of tyranny and unjustified power or authority.

2-What do you mean by libertarian communism? is it the same as libertarian socialism or anarcho-syndicalism? and most importantly how will a libertarian communist society look like? other than pre-civil war Catalonia, could you give any other example of such societies? can we regard the kibbutz as an example?

I know about workers co-operatives and direct democracy and freedom....etc but how can you abolish private property and enforce collective ownership without a strong state? what about other governmental agencies? would you only keep law enforcement and the judiciary or am I confusing you with Paulites?
What about private homes? or private cars? would they still be "private"?
Also, if private property is abolished, how can anyone open a business like a restaurant? or a car dealership? or a cinema? or a law firm? or even a titty bar for that matter? who would be the owner of any of these establishments? would the state be in charge of providing leisure centers?

Last of all, I believe that even if anarchist communism can be implemented on a small scale I still have serious doubts about a nation surviving under such a system, what can you tell me to convince me otherwise?
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #21 - January 01, 2010, 12:46 AM

great questions

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- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #22 - January 01, 2010, 12:51 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 01, 2010, 12:41 AM
1-Isn't communism collectivist in nature?

Communism means collective ownership and democratic control of the means living. Ergo, yes, it is collectivist.

Quote
and if so, isn't communism by proxy against liberty since collectivism in itself is at odds with liberty?

Not at all. Collective ownership will ensure personal freedom.

Quote
2-What do you mean by libertarian communism? is it the same as libertarian socialism or anarcho-syndicalism? and most importantly how will a libertarian communist society look like? other than pre-civil war Catalonia, could you give any other example of such societies? can we regard the kibbutz as an example?

We haven't reached it yet. It is the goal of history.

Kibbutz were/are racist institutions that have nothing to do with socialism-communism.

And socialism-communism can't be a island in a sea of capitalism.

Quote
I know about workers co-operatives and direct democracy and freedom....etc but how can you abolish private property and enforce collective ownership without a strong state?

It can't be enforced. The goal of communism and anarchism is the socialised ownership of the means of production under democratic control. That is the basis of the new society.

Personal property will still exist. No-one will want to nick your toothbrush.

But I don't have diagrams of cookshops of the future.

Quote
Last of all, I believe that even if anarchist communism can be implemented on a small scale I still have serious doubts about a nation surviving under such a system, what can you tell me to convince me otherwise?

I can't, because nations must be dissolved.

Nevertheless, it may be that the world will not be de-territorialized in one instant. So, the democratically controlled legal institutions will exist in territories for a while, mayhap.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #23 - January 01, 2010, 01:15 AM

Quote from: panoptic on January 01, 2010, 12:51 AM
Not at all. Collective ownership will ensure personal freedom.

Which nothing else - no other system - can do.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #24 - January 01, 2010, 02:45 AM

Thanks for the answers.

Quote from: panoptic
-Collective ownership will ensure personal freedom.
-Which nothing else - no other system - can do.

Why is economic equality essential to personal freedom? I think they are two different things. Also, what is wrong with systems in Iceland or Norway for instance? don't they have personal freedom? what are the flaws in their systems?
BTW, I believe that you cannot achieve personal freedom without private property but I don't want to turn this into a debate. Let's keep it more like a Q&A kinda lecture.

Quote
We haven't reached it yet. It is the goal of history.

What about Catalonia? what are the differences between it and what you're in favor of?

Quote
But I don't have diagrams of cookshops of the future.

This isn't only about restaurants. This is very important. If instead of private property we have collective ownership, why would anyone establish a business if all those who work in it own it collectively? what is the incentive for anyone to establish a football club? a hotel? a radio talk show? a tattoo parlor? a titty bar (can't stop mentioning them )? a tanning saloon? a restaurant? a record label company? a pedicure spa? a cinema? or even make a movie?
Who would run them? who would own them?
Let me put it another way, if your goal had been achieved 200 years ago, do you think we would still have had Manchester United, The Four Seasons, or Burger King?

Now if I may I would like to raise two new questions:
1-Surely you don't want wages to be the same or do you?
2-Who gets the bigger house? who gets to live in the nicer neighborhood?

P.S: I won't be bringing up economic productivity and technological progress as that would most definitely turn the thread into a never-ending debate. There are a lot of Friedman and Stossel videos I can borrow arguments and examples from.
- Iblis
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #25 - January 01, 2010, 03:37 AM

Long live capitalism! Long live big oil! Another random meaningless chant! And another! Another!

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #26 - January 01, 2010, 10:23 AM

A tribute to the many accomplishments of communism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyUu-8nbd58

"In a child's power to master the multiplication table, there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "amens" and "holy holies" and "hosannas." An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks" - Henry Drummond
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #27 - January 01, 2010, 10:41 AM

@Nerzule
I don't wanna turn this into a debate. I genuinely don't. I just wanted to have a better standing of communism so I am asking these questions. Plus, panoptic is talking about a form of stateless anarchist communism.
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #28 - January 01, 2010, 10:54 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 01, 2010, 12:41 AM
collectivism in itself is at odds with liberty?
By liberty I mean autonomy, self-determination, right to choose, and freedom from any kind of tyranny and unjustified power or authority.

False dichotomy. Collectivism and individualism as mutually exclusive concepts and systems is an entirely artificial academic construct.

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 01, 2010, 02:45 AM
Why is economic equality essential to personal freedom? I think they are two different things.

It is difficult to exercise personal freedom with inequity in power, as those with more power can restrict the liberty of those with less power. Large inequities in wealth necessarily mean large inequities in power.

Quote
There are a lot of Friedman and Stossel videos I can borrow arguments and examples from.

Stossel? Seriously? That guy's a joke. A smarmy little liar with no journalistic integrity who's personal outlook could be described as "Libertarianism for retards". I mean, mentioning Friedman and Stossel in the same breath as if they were even close to each other in terms of intellect and scholarly worth? Come on, man.

But if you really want a Stossel video, here's my favorite--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-k2uJ3AmVE

Quote from: Nerzule on January 01, 2010, 10:23 AM
A tribute to the many accomplishments of communism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyUu-8nbd58

I say-- -- to your simplistic YouTube anti-Commie propaganda video. Yeah, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all really bad guys-- we get it. Oh, and by the way, the closing quote by Stalin...he never said it.

fuck you
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Re: An Autonomous and Free New Year to you All
Reply #29 - January 01, 2010, 11:20 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on January 01, 2010, 10:41 AM
@Nerzule
I don't wanna turn this into a debate. I genuinely don't. I just wanted to have a better standing of communism so I am asking these questions. Plus, panoptic is talking about a form of stateless anarchist communism.

Okay, sounds good

EDIT

Could someone give me a link to the page were you were debating?

"In a child's power to master the multiplication table, there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "amens" and "holy holies" and "hosannas." An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks" - Henry Drummond
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