A lot of discussion has focused around verse 65:4. I'll take the translation which a couple of you have given:
SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
And Hassan's view:
''The translation is: Those who haven't menstruated"
I am sure none of you will claim 'beacuse of their young age' or any words like this are contained in the verse itself. Rather as a couple of you have pointed out this extrapolation comes from the tafsirs. The reason I gave the Shabbir Ahmed translation is to show that different extrapolations are possible - I don't think I should be knocked for this since your own interpretation is itself an extrapolation (although be it based on tafsirs). Obviously 'women who have not menstruated' must also wait for a period of three months because these women may be in the early stages of post conception (i.e. since there were no pregnancy tests or any other accurate way of knowing whether a woman is pregnant or not in those days, then she must wait three months after which time it should be obvious that she indeed is pregnant). For example, reasons other than pregnancy for not menstruating could be anorexia, hormonal problems etc. - these types of problems can stop women menstruating for months. Indeed this verse appears to be very careful in trying to eliminate all possibility that a woman may be pregnant since menopausal women are also told to wait three months to alleviate any doubt. Therefore the verse could simply mean (and in my opinion very likely means) those women who haven't menstruated must wait for three months in order to confirm whether she is pregnant or not - i.e. they should not be excused on the grounds that they have a physiological problem for not menstruating (as well as being menopausal) but must wait three months after which pregnancy can more definitively be ruled out - women should be showing at this stage and it should be pretty obvious if she is pregnant. If there is no sign of pregnancy at this stage, the divorce can be finalised. If she is pregnant the couple must wait until she gives birth for divorce to go ahead. In short, I honestly feel we are jumping to unwarranted conclusions if we start claiming the relevant part of the verse was referring to young girls.
Hi Abu Yunus,
Let me begin by saying that I have grown a little weary of internet forum discussions. When I first left Islam I felt I wanted to climb up to the top of a mountain and shout out to everyone. I spent a lot of time debating and dissecting on forums. But these days I seem to have lost a lot of interest in doing that. But I am replying to you as I have a great deal of respect for you. I know how painful it is for Muslims to even consider the possibility that Islam may not be the truth.
OK to verse 4 of At-Talaq. To me the verse is clearly speaking about 3 special categories: Women who don't have their period because they are: 1. Too old 2. Too young. 3. Are pregnant.
The words for the second group is: لم يمحضن which is the verb: "To Menstruate" and the negative particle meaning "Haven't/didn't/not..."
So it literally means:
"They haven't menstruated."I have a large selection of the classical tafseers at home and took a look in all of them for you. They all say it means those who have not started menstruating because they are too young. I also have a modern tafseer by As-Sabooni that gathers all the comments of the scholars. He also says it means girls who haven't started menstruating because of their youth.
Of course I could be wrong and Shabbir Whatsisname could be right that it really does mean
"women who haven't menstruated because of physiological defects" He and the handful of modernists may have unlocked the secret meaning of this verse that Scholars for 1400 years could not.
But I have to admit it sounds extremely weak to me - to say the least! To say that it means those who can't for physiological reasons, makes no sense, since it says:
"Those who haven't" (which implies they can) and it doesn't say;
"Those who can't." It would actually have made more sense to use the first group where it uses the verb "despaired" for those who
can't (i.e. because they are too old or because of physiological reasons.) Though to be fair, I suppose it could mean those who haven't menstruated for some unknown reason - in other words it's not known if they can or not. But this still seems very weak to me.
You also appear to suggest that it could just mean women in general who
can have periods but who have just not had it yet. But that makes no sense since verse 1 to 3 has already dealt with women in general. Verse 4 is about special cases (Young, Old or Pregnant.)
Of course you can make up your own mind.
I hope that helps.
Peace,
Hassan.
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