Hello people

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Re: Hello people
Reply #390 - January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM

@ Islame

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Do you really think we are arrogant, if we are willing to go with evidence?

What evidence?

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And this arrogance deserves eternal punishment?

Again, I need to know what evidence you are talking about.

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Muslims dont even accept evidence, when it comes to evolution.

I believe in evolution, so?

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Can we then call them even more arrogant, and would I then feel comfortable with them being tortured in a potential after-life? Answer is no.

Personally, Islame, I believe that if God saved you despite your being an atheist, and sent me to Hell even if I were the most righteous man whoever walked the Earth, then still I won't nor can object. It is STILL justice.

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Again I could understand this better if it was a manmade religion, i.e. threatening people to believe, because Muhammed never had a personal relationship with an angel or an invisible sky god.

True, threats of Hell are plenty in the Quran. These are needed by simple people who can only understand the concept of punishment and reward. If God didn't make this message amply clear, such people would have been at a disadvantage.

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But you know this collection of atoms is conscious & can feel pain.

So what? it's all ONLY chemical reactions, right? Remember the Periodic Table in my previous post? That's all you believe you are, STARDUST.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #391 - January 15, 2010, 08:47 PM

Quote from: billy on January 15, 2010, 08:31 PM
Don't be so tough on yourself dude.

tough on myself? Why? You're not that bright?

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Re: Hello people
Reply #392 - January 15, 2010, 08:51 PM

@ Islame

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You know 100% that is the word of God?
To qualify,
- you know as a100% fact that it is the word of God

No. It is NOT a fact that I can prove.. .it's only a belief.. I believe 100%.
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- you know as a100% fact that there is only one God

Yes.
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- you know as a 100% fact that this Muhammed was his messenger and through his disciples he managed to transfer these words 30 years later without err to this book called Quran i.e. without mistake, extra additions/ommisions by man.

No. I believe (not a fact) that the message was preserved.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #393 - January 15, 2010, 08:54 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
but they are just words in a book revealed by a random man to none believers. I am sure you would fel the same way about another set of words by another man that were put into a book
Have you ever wondered why the muslim world lags behind the rest of the world. If we are all born the same, then it can only be down to the religion and its resultant culture that causes these problems. No?

First off these verses were to counter your accusation that Muslims must be enemies with non-Muslims.

Now, the answer to the other question is NO. Like I said Latinos (who are part of the West and who are Christians) are as backward as Muslims. The secret lies in the tyrrany and corruption of these governments.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #394 - January 15, 2010, 08:56 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
@ Islame

I believe in evolution, so?

Really? Then how do you explain Adam and Eve?

If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
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Re: Hello people
Reply #395 - January 15, 2010, 09:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
@ Islame

What evidence?

As in not believing in something until we have evidence. As opposed to being like you where you are convinced something is 100% fact without any proof.

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
So what? it's all ONLY chemical reactions, right? Remember the Periodic Table in my previous post? That's all you believe you are, STARDUST.

I hope you realise that you are being disenenguous here, by saying I believe I am stardust. You believe: we are created from earth (11:61), sometimes from dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), sometimes from nothing (19:67), sometimes not from nothing (52:35), sometimes from wet earth (23:12), or from mire (38:71), sometimes from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), sometimes from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11) or even sometimes from the dead (30:19, 39:6). Not me.

I believe that protein was created by stardust, light & water. A small percentage of protein managed to replicate itself. The rest is history, and as you believe in evolution, I hope you wont argue with the fact that over billions of years it evolved into the diverse natural world we have around us today.
Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
@ Islame

What evidence?

Again, I need to know what evidence you are talking about.

I believe in evolution, so?

So who were Adam & Eve? Were we born out of incest?

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Re: Hello people
Reply #396 - January 15, 2010, 09:01 PM

Quote from: taraC on January 15, 2010, 08:56 PM

Really? Then how do you explain Adam and Eve?

We simply weren't given any details about Adam... we were told he started off as dust though, which is what this material world is made of, anyway... the only difference is that Soul was added to dust and it became aware.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #397 - January 15, 2010, 09:02 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:47 PM
tough on myself? Why? You're not that bright?

I am, but you don't need to enunciate your inferiority like that - be kind to yourself.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Hello people
Reply #398 - January 15, 2010, 09:04 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:54 PM

Now, the answer to the other question is NO. Like I said Latinos (who are part of the West and who are Christians) are as backward as Muslims. The secret lies in the tyrrany and corruption of these governments.

Latin America does have functioning democracies almost universally now - the age of Pinochet and Galtieri is past.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Hello people
Reply #399 - January 15, 2010, 09:06 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:01 PM
We simply weren't given any details about Adam... we were told he started off as dust though, which is what this material world is made of, anyway... the only difference is that Soul was added to dust and it became aware.

I dont believe consiousness is soul. Its just the composite sum of brain + stimuli .
Stimuli = sound + vision + touch + memory etc

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Re: Hello people
Reply #400 - January 15, 2010, 09:11 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
Personally, Islame, I believe that if God saved you despite your being an atheist, and sent me to Hell even if I were the most righteous man whoever walked the Earth, then still I won't nor can object. It is STILL justice.

Justice for what? Being sceptical and requiring evidence ?

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Re: Hello people
Reply #401 - January 15, 2010, 09:21 PM

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As in not believing in something until we have evidence. As opposed to being like you where you are convinced something is 100% fact without any proof.

What evidence do you want from God? Showing Himself to you? How far are you willing for God to show evidence? Some people won't be convinced unless they see Him... and even then they'd think they're hallucinating... And if He shown Himself, He'd just have taken away your abillity to choose to believe or not. God loves humble people. If this maginificent creation, all around you, is not evidence enough for you, then you are indeed arrogant. If you really believe you're just stardust, then you are stubborn.

By the way, I did discuss the "lack" of evidence before with atheists, I can post the summary of my discussions here for you to discuss with me if you want.

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I hope you realise that you are being disenenguous here, by saying I believe I am stardust. You believe: we are created from earth (11:61), sometimes from dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), sometimes from nothing (19:67), sometimes not from nothing (52:35), sometimes from wet earth (23:12), or from mire (38:71), sometimes from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), sometimes from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11) or even sometimes from the dead (30:19, 39:6). Not me.

Oh please, not that crap from answering-islam.com. You know that all of these apply.

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I believe that protein was created by stardust, light & water. A small percentage of protein managed to replicate itself. The rest is history, and as you believe in evolution, I hope you wont argue with the fact that over billions of years it evolved into the diverse natural world we have around us today.

So evolution is God's brush with which He painted this majestic planet.

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So who were Adam & Eve? Were we born out of incest?

I really, don't know, we weren't given any details in the Quran. But I know that we do look A LOT like animals... we don't need DNA, nor fossils to know this fact... we are animals... yet we are a world apart from animals... See my post to Yunus.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #402 - January 15, 2010, 09:24 PM

Quote from: billy on January 15, 2010, 09:02 PM
I am, but you don't need to enunciate your inferiority like that - be kind to yourself.

But being inferior to you, dear intelligent billy, is really no inferiority at all.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hello people
Reply #403 - January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM

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But being inferior to you, dear intelligent billy, is really no inferiority at all.

In as much as you are one amongst billions, it feels like that, as all intimations of insignificance lead to that sense of meaninglessness

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Hello people
Reply #404 - January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 15, 2010, 09:06 PM
I dont believe consiousness is soul. Its just the composite sum of brain + stimuli .
Stimuli = sound + vision + touch + memory etc

The brain is the seat of the "I"... the brain is NOT the "I"...

Anyway, so what's wrong with tormenting a heap of atoms for enternity?

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Re: Hello people
Reply #405 - January 15, 2010, 09:31 PM

Quote from: billy on January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM

In as much as you are one amongst billions, it feels like that, as all intimations of insignificance lead to that sense of meaninglessness

No dear billy, this has nothing to do with my being one of billions.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Hello people
Reply #406 - January 15, 2010, 09:32 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM
Anyway, so what's wrong with tormenting a heap of atoms for enternity?

Whats the purpose of this torment?

If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
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Re: Hello people
Reply #407 - January 15, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:21 PM
What evidence do you want from God? Showing Himself to you? How far are you willing for God to show evidence? Some people won't be convinced unless they see Him... and even then they'd think they're hallucinating... And if He shown Himself, He'd just have taken away your abillity to choose to believe or not. God loves humble people.
If this maginificent creation, all around you, is not evidence enough for you, then you are indeed arrogant

Why am I arrogant. I didnt say I made it myself, nor did I say humans made it? The universe may have done it over billions of years. I didnt even deny a that a supernatural creator made. All I deny is that Prophet Muhammed is the prophet of this being, whatever it may be

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If you really believe you're just stardust, then you are stubborn.

I thought I clarified I am not stardust in my previous post

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Oh please, not that crap from answering-islam.com.

Please dont refer to the Holy Quran like that. Its disrespectful. If you think the Quran is crap, please put it better than that

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You know that all of these apply.

I dont, thats why I posted them. They are direct quotes from the quran.

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So evolution is God's brush with which He painted this majestic planet.

Could be, but like you say there is a plausible scientific explanation for it, thats why only fools are 100% certain without evidence

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I really, don't know, we weren't given any details in the Quran. But I know that we do look A LOT like animals... we don't need DNA, nor fossils to know this fact... we are animals...yet we are a world apart from animals...

How, some are faster, some are stronger, some live longer, some have been more successfull in evolutionary terms. Us? We have a large brain.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #408 - January 15, 2010, 09:39 PM

Quote from: taraC on January 15, 2010, 09:32 PM
Whats the purpose of this torment?

if someone *arrogantly* decides to break the Universal Law, then they're reduced to zero and there's really nothing to an everlasting torment of zero.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #409 - January 15, 2010, 09:40 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM
The brain is the seat of the "I"... the brain is NOT the "I"...

Anyway, so what's wrong with tormenting a heap of atoms for enternity?

You are mixing arguments here.
The argument that eternal torment is unfair takes place after hypothetically accepting the idea that we have souls.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #410 - January 15, 2010, 09:41 PM

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if someone *arrogantly* decides to break the Universal Law, then they're reduced to zero and there's really nothing to an everlasting torment of zero.

One of billions indeed

This discussion is on another level now.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Hello people
Reply #411 - January 15, 2010, 09:44 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:39 PM
if someone *arrogantly* decides to break the Universal Law, then they're reduced to zero and there's really nothing to an everlasting torment of zero.

Isn't this arrogance because Satan is misguiding us? Who made satan? Who gave satan the power to tempt us?

If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
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Re: Hello people
Reply #412 - January 15, 2010, 09:47 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:27 PM
The brain is the seat of the "I"... the brain is NOT the "I"...

This is an assertion. Also the soul is an assertion. Do you use this wisdom to allow yourself to believe in djinn, ghosts, angels too?

btw have you heard "what can be asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence"?
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Anyway, so what's wrong with tormenting a heap of atoms for enternity?

Nothing, because the soul doesnt consist of atoms. We dont even know if it is conscious or if it can feel pain. Its the principle that counts, it accentuates the 'them & us' mentality by labelling non-believers as 'bad' & 'arrogant' people because they cant see. This lends itself to part of the problems of the Islamic world.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #413 - January 15, 2010, 09:47 PM
Why am I arrogant. I didnt say I made it myself, nor did I say humans made it? The universe may have done it over billions of years. I didnt even deny a that a supernatural creator made. All I deny is that Prophet Muhammed is the prophet of this being, whatever it may be
Wait! Now you're changing your story! If you are a *Deist* and worship ONLY one God, then you can still be SAVED and I can show you evidence from the Quran.

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I thought I clarified I am not stardust in my previous post.

What? you said no there's no *immaterial* element in you! So that leaves only stardust.

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Please dont refer to the Holy Quran like that. Its disrespectful. If you think the Quran is crap, please put it better than that

Naughty Islame, you know I meant their argument was crap.

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Could be, but like you say there is a plausible scientific explanation for it, thats why only fools are 100% certain without evidence.

yep, I have all the evidence "I" need... but that doesn't necessarily work with anyone.

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How, some are faster, some are stronger, some live longer, some have been more successfull in evolutionary terms. Us? We have a large brain.

Which is a trivial thing really... only a million times smarter? Nah! That's nothing.
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Re: Hello people
Reply #414 - January 15, 2010, 09:49 PM

Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 09:39 PM
if someone *arrogantly* decides to break the Universal Law, then they're reduced to zero and there's really nothing to an everlasting torment of zero.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #415 - January 15, 2010, 09:49 PM

Quote from: billy on January 15, 2010, 09:41 PM

One of billions indeed

This discussion is on another level now.

Thanks! I'll take that as a compliment, after all I started it

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Re: Hello people
Reply #416 - January 15, 2010, 09:51 PM

When I said its on another level, I didn't mean it was on a higher level

This one is a peach:

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if someone *arrogantly* decides to break the Universal Law, then they're reduced to zero and there's really nothing to an everlasting torment of zero.

IsLame's confused icon kind of says it all

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Hello people
Reply #417 - January 15, 2010, 09:57 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 15, 2010, 09:49 PM

What I'm saying my love is that God created us destined to HELL, the whole lot of us. Only by His mercy are we saved, now why would God save an arrogant speck of dust from an everlasting torment in Hell?

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Re: Hello people
Reply #418 - January 15, 2010, 09:59 PM

@ tara

God says Satan's work is weak (4:76) and Satan confirms that ALL HE CAN DO is merely call upon us to follow him (14:22) ... see how weak is that? Besides, please don't forget that listening to Satan is only one way... you can also obey the evil side of yourself (25:43; 28:50; 12:53) and other people (6:116; 37:56; 114:6).

True, I really wish there were no mad dogs... no snakes, no scorpions, no poisonous bugs, no disease, no aging, etc. But guess what? This life is no paradise. And while these inconveniences are part of the material world, the inconveniences of Satan, bad peer pressure, and evil side of the self are all part of the spiritual world. This life is NOT perfect and it was meant not to be perfect on every level.

We ourselves were created imperfect (with the ability to sin)... we are no angels.

Imperfection is part of God's plan for this temporary life.

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Re: Hello people
Reply #419 - January 15, 2010, 10:00 PM

Quote from: billy on January 15, 2010, 09:51 PM
When I said its on another level, I didn't mean it was on a higher level

This one is a peach:

IsLame's confused icon kind of says it all

Billy, I think I am falling in love.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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