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 Topic: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon

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  • Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     OP - January 18, 2010, 07:47 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0gTtoOMex4

    I'd be very interested in the opinion of Muslims on the story of Sulmayn in the Qur'an who was granted "a kingdom which no one else would have after him"  Wink and his power over the wind and the Jinn and animals...

    I'm thinking of doing a video on him, based on the what Ladeenee wrote in his blog recently (I recommend this excellent blog to anyone who can read Arabic.)

    http://ladenee.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #1 - January 18, 2010, 07:54 PM

    The story of Suleiman, was there not a part where termites ate his cane/chair and he fell and died? I had a time believing that as 9 year old. I felt sad for him  Cheesy
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #2 - January 18, 2010, 08:42 PM

    Thanks Hassan, that was a gr8 blog indeed. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #3 - January 18, 2010, 08:45 PM

    Yep, that and his talking to the Hud-Hud bird and the ant who told the other ants to hide when Sulayman came and Sulayman understood what he said and smiled and the Jinn who brought the throne of Bilquis in the blink of an eye (from Yemen to Palestine.) etc...


  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #4 - January 18, 2010, 08:54 PM

    You pretty much have to force yourself to believe in it, and not question. Power of indoctrination makes you go well why not? God could make all things possible. Why not this? That's how I convinced myself.

    The only way to break that chain is reading physics and biology. None of these things are possible in the natural world. God would have to break the physicals laws he has created, which he can, but I'm pretty sure you can disprove it by showing that it's just physcially impossible in this world. Sort of like this:


    Quote
    The Physics of Santa Claus

       1. No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.

       2. There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378 million according to the Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each.

       3. Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, and assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of his sleigh, jump down the chimnye, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course we know to be false but for the purpose of our calculations we will accept), we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75.5 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc.This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.

       4. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 punds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (refer to point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal load, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.

       5. 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecrafts re-entereing the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy per SECOND, EACH! In short, hey will burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create a deafening sonic boom in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousanths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal* forces 17,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250 pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.

    http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/physicsofsanta.html


    And evolution at least for me shows it can pretty much run along by itself. The only part that makes me go hmm is the self-replicating gene. But from what I've understood, parts try to build each other, and the ones that manage to build a pair, and copy themselves succeed. Which is an simplification, but at least it makes sense.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #5 - January 18, 2010, 09:02 PM

    God would have to break the physicals laws he has created


    That and why the fuck did he confine all his party tricks to a time when man hadn't advanced enough to properly record and verify all this stupid shit.

    Hmmm......
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #6 - January 18, 2010, 09:04 PM

    Hassan is back!!

    Quote
    That and why the fuck did he confine all his party tricks to a time when man hadn't advanced enough to properly record and verify all this stupid shit.


    lol

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #7 - January 18, 2010, 09:05 PM

    That and why the fuck did he confine all his party tricks to a time when man hadn't advanced enough to properly record and verify all this stupid shit.

    Hmmm......


    Allah knows best  grin12
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #8 - January 18, 2010, 09:07 PM

    Quote from: BlackDog
    The Physics of Santa Claus
       4. The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 punds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (refer to point #1) could pull TEN TIMES the normal load, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - 353,430 tons. Again, for comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.

    That is one fat motherfucking Queen!
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #9 - January 18, 2010, 09:14 PM

    Speaking of miracles I was told that Muhammed had no miracles. That back then people wouldn't have believed in miracles (as if) but there are multitude of fucking miracles, the crying palm tree (lol), the never ending canister of water, feeding a whole room of people with some bread. I mean I'm not sure about the veracity of these hadiths. But the worst one is the splitting of the moon, I still to this day don't know what it means. A greek friend told me about this miracle (i had never heard of it before, was very practicing back then), and after a long talk of us destroying christian miracles he said Muhammed also had a miracle, splitting of the moon. I was flabbergasted and thought it was the most inane thing I had ever heard. And told him it certainly was not true. I thought to myself, foolish people back then how can they believe in stuff like that, ignorant desert dwellers.

    Can anybody tell me about it?

    I liked one hadith, again not sure about the veracity, where the son of Muhammed died (I think it was Ibrahim) and there was an eclipse or something. And people said look even the sun is sad. And Muhammed said the sun doesn't work that way. Or something scientific. Which made me proud.

    But then you read another hadith where he was scared of an eclipse and thought it was judgment day. lol maybe he learned that the eclipse is just the eclipse after his first initial scare?

    The best way to discuss miracles with religious people is to mention the miracles of other religious groups and ask them you believe in these as well?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #10 - January 18, 2010, 09:55 PM

    Hello Hassan,

    Quote
    I'd be very interested in the opinion of Muslims on the story of Sulmayn in the Qur'an who was granted "a kingdom which no one else would have after him"  and his power over the wind and the Jinn and animals...

    I'm thinking of doing a video on him, based on the what Ladeenee wrote in his blog recently (I recommend this excellent blog to anyone who can read Arabic.)


    Like BD said, If God could make all things possible. Why not this?

    God is the creator of everything including the natural laws and whenever He wills, He breaks these laws.

    As for Solomon's kingdom which non could have after him, probably it refers to his rule over beast, demons and the elements.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #11 - January 18, 2010, 10:02 PM

    Quote
    That and why the fuck did he confine all his party tricks to a time when man hadn't advanced enough to properly record and verify all this stupid shit.

    Hmmm......


    Again like BD mentioned, according to Quran Muhammed didn't perform any miracles.. I can show verses if you want.

    In fact, my theory is that the Quan (being the FINAL book) seems to be judging Humanity as a whole. It shows that no matter what God did, those who wanted to believe became believers and those who refused to believe did so regardless. Examples:
    1- Muslims deviate in each possible way from *pure* worship of God, just like all the people before them, despite the fact that the message of Tawhid is the clearest, most important and most repeated message in the Quran.
    2- Even when God favored a people (the Israelites) by making them Kings and Prophets in the Promised Land, Israelites always were disobedient. So? Favoring a people or not doesn't help them become believers.
    3- The Quran stated in many verses that this time there are no more miracles. Why? Because people of the old times received miracles and those who didn't want to believe, dismissed them as magic. So, whoever really wants to believe, doesn't need a miracle. Do we NOW need a miracle to believe in God? Early Muslims believed without any miracles and so should everyone else be able to believe without miracles... there's NO excuse for disbelief due to lack of miracles.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #12 - January 18, 2010, 10:08 PM

    if there were no miracles what is he splittin gof the moon & flying donkeys about?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #13 - January 18, 2010, 10:15 PM

    First off, regarding splitting the moon, I'm sure it's not describing a miracle. Anyway, there's one Hadith which states it was a prophecy of a lunar eclipse..

    As for the flying donkey story, it is no miracle because NO one had witnessed it... besides, there are two different other versions:

    1- The prophet visited these places in a dream.
    2- The prophet's soul (not his body) visited these places.

    Of course, Muslims preferred the flying donkey version, because it's more interesting...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #14 - January 18, 2010, 10:19 PM

    Really Debunker? It was not a literal story? That's sad. I guess you should tell that to all the problems people are having in Jerusalem. Hey muslims, it's ok, Mo was actually never here. I know... because erm... I use a rational approach to Islam and debunk much of the fairy tales, yet I still consider myself a muslim.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #15 - January 18, 2010, 10:21 PM

    Again like BD mentioned, according to Quran Muhammed didn't perform any miracles.. I can show verses if you want.

    In fact, my theory is that the Quan (being the FINAL book) seems to be judging Humanity as a whole. It shows that no matter what God did, those who wanted to believe became believers and those who refused to believe did so regardless. Examples:
    1- Muslims deviate in each possible way from *pure* worship of God, just like all the people before them, despite the fact that the message of Tawhid is the clearest, most important and most repeated message in the Quran.
    2- Even when God favored a people (the Israelites) by making them Kings and Prophets in the Promised Land, Israelites always were disobedient. So? Favoring a people or not doesn't help them become believers.
    3- The Quran stated in many verses that this time there are no more miracles. Why? Because people of the old times received miracles and those who didn't want to believe, dismissed them as magic. So, whoever really wants to believe, doesn't need a miracle. Do we NOW need a miracle to believe in God? Early Muslims believed without any miracles and so should everyone else be able to believe without miracles... there's NO excuse for disbelief due to lack of miracles.


    Hi Debunker,

    Do you believe that the Qur'an's descriptions of Sulayman's interaction with the Jinn, birds and other animals is literally true or is some sort of metaphorical or allegorical story that should not be taken literally?

    Don't you find it odd that God performed a lot of amazing miracles to primitive people who believed all sorts of daft things, but doesn't perform any miracles now? Why doesn't God perform miracles now so that more people can believe and he would have a better excuse to say they have no excuse not to believe?

    Why do you say there no excuse to disbelieve now? Because Muslims at the time of Muhammad believed without miracles? Why does that mean we have no excuse not to believe? (You realise that there were many who disbelieved. Muhammad had to fight long and hard until everyone "believed.")

    I can see a lot of good reasons to disbelieve. I can't see many good reasons to believe. Am I evil? Do I deserve punishment?

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #16 - January 18, 2010, 10:22 PM

    actually BD, you can ask Hassan about the other two versions of the Isra story.

    As for Palestinians defending their mosque, I'm pretty sure they would have defended it regardless of any stories.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #17 - January 18, 2010, 10:31 PM

    Please read up on your history mate. There is a reason why that mosque was built there, there is a reason why it was built so early. That land was not occupied by muslims from the get go.

    And I have heard it's metaphorical as well. But that's a modern interpretation from somebody that doesn't have the moral courage to stand up for his religion. Even when it's wrong. Yes you would call that ignorant, but at least I called an apple an apple, and not a zucchini. Or at least I tried to as much as I could.

    Religion is not a candy store, you can't pick and choose. Then what's the point of religion? Or one as rigid as Islam, or Judaism for that matter?

    Look dude I like you, I love debating with you and its a fresh point of view but at least have the honesty to say that you are interpreting as you see fit. At one stage you deny the hadiths, and another you pick it. Mashallah I had no idea you were a such a great scholar. When will you start your own madhab?

    Please don't be mad at me, you are a rational guy, and smart, and like I said I like you and I see where you're coming from but every time you act dishonest I will pull the BS card on you. And you will like it.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #18 - January 18, 2010, 10:31 PM

    @ Hassan

    Quote
    Do you believe that the Qur'an's descriptions of Sulayman's interaction with the Jinn, birds and other animals is literally true or is some sort of metaphorical or allegorical story that should not be taken literally?


    These stories including the miracles of Jesus, Moses and the rest are all literally true.

    Quote
    Don't you find it odd that God performed a lot of amazing miracles to primitive people who believed all sorts of daft things, but doesn't perform any miracles now? Why doesn't God perform miracles now so that more people can believe and he would have a better excuse to say they have no excuse not to believe?

    Why do you say there no excuse to disbelieve now? Because Muslims at the time of Muhammad believed without miracles? Why does that mean we have no excuse not to believe? (You realise that there were many who disbelieved. Muhammad had to fight long and hard them until everyone "believed.")


    Like I explained earlier, God is judging the entire human history. He's showing that those who didn't want to believe, disbelieved REGADLESS of Miracles... Moses, Jesus, etc were all called magicians... So the Quran is saying to humanity, those who want to believe will believe (proof many Muslims believed without miracles) and those who don't want to believe wouldn't despite miracles (the majority of the people rejected the prophets, calling them magicians).

    Quote
    I can see a lot of good reasons to believe. I can't see many good reasons to believe. Am I evil? Do I deserve punishment?


    That's between you and God.. He knows your heart and how sincere you are... but here's what I believe: if you submit to the One Creator God, you are ultimately saved... No religion needed (verse?).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #19 - January 18, 2010, 10:35 PM

    but here's what I believe: if you submit to the One Creator God, you are ultimately saved... No religion needed (verse?).



    Is this like the time you said there was a hadith were the women beat their men and then never came back? Or hurt them so much that God sanctioned a verse, where at the end of it the men could beat them?

    Please bring a verse, you are the one putting forth the argument here.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #20 - January 18, 2010, 10:39 PM

    @ BD

    Quote
    Please read up on your history mate. There is a reason why that mosque was built there, there is a reason why it was built so early. That land was not occupied by muslims from the get go.

     

    I'm not sure why it was built, but it was the Muslims first Qibla, remember? That's why it's holy, regardless.

    Quote
    And I have heard it's metaphorical as well.

     

    No. There are two seperate *contradictory* accounts to the flying donkey story... Ask Hassan about it.

    Quote
    But that's a modern interpretation from somebody that doesn't have the moral courage to stand up for his religion. Even when it's wrong. Yes you would call that ignorant, but at least I called an apple an apple, and not a zucchini. Or at least I tried to as much as I could.


    See above.. it's NOT an interpretation, it's two different accounts.

    Quote
    Religion is not a candy store, you can't pick and choose. Then what's the point of religion? Or one as rigid as Islam, or Judaism for that matter?

    Look dude I like you, I love debating with you and its a fresh point of view but at least have the honesty to say that you are interpreting as you see fit. At one stage you deny the hadiths, and another you pick it. Mashallah I had no idea you were a such a great scholar. When will you start your own madhab?

     

    Actually I hope that EVERY Muslim would renounce the authority of EVERY scholar. The religion is for EVERYONE of us, and just like Bukhari et al gave themselves the right to reject hundreds of thousands of Hadith, so do I have the right to reject from within their collections.

    Quote
    Please don't be mad at me, you are a rational guy, and smart, and like I said I like you and I see where you're coming from but every time you act dishonest I will pull the BS card on you. And you will like it.

     

    Oh, that's OK BD, again like I said, ask Hassan about the two other accounts.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #21 - January 18, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Quote
    I'm not sure why it was built, but it was the Muslims first Qibla, remember? That's why it's holy, regardless.


    What was exactly holy back then? When they had the Qibla. The city of Jerusalem? Or something else?

     
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #22 - January 18, 2010, 10:44 PM

    These stories including the miracles of Jesus, Moses and the rest are all literally true.


    I'm surprised you say that, actually. You seem like an intelligent person and I think it is hard for an intelligent person to take things like this literally. But I guess we all have our own ways of understanding things - no blame attached to that.

    Which is why I find it hard to understand how and why God would blame those who find such things compelling reasons to dismiss them as man-made fictions.

    Like I explained earlier, God is judging the entire human history. He's showing that those who didn't want to believe, disbelieved REGADLESS of Miracles...


    So do you think that people disbelieve because they don't want to believe?

    Why don't they want to believe?

    Are their reasons deserving of torture?

    if you submit to the One Creator God, you are ultimately saved


    But if you don't - what happens?
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #23 - January 18, 2010, 10:45 PM

    @ BD

    Quote
    Is this like the time you said there was a hadith were the women beat their men and then never came back? Or hurt them so much that God sanctioned a verse, where at the end of it the men could beat them?


    Please show me where I ever claimed that women beaten their husbands... I clearly said they maltreated them.. anyway, please quote me where I said that women beaten their husbands.

    Quote
    Please bring a verse, you are the one putting forth the argument here.

     

    I believe that (according to Quran) if you believe in the Oness of God and worship no one except Him and never pray or call upon anyone except Him, then you could still be saved (by the way, TOO MANY so-called Muslims can't even do that!)

    قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى كَلَمَةٍ سَوَاء بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَلاَّ نَعْبُدَ إِلاَّ اللّهَ وَلاَ نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئًا وَلاَ يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضاً أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقُولُواْ اشْهَدُواْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ
    [Al-Imran 6:64]
    Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common ground between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have submitted (to God Almighty).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #24 - January 18, 2010, 10:47 PM

    What was exactly holy back then? When they had the Qibla. The city of Jerusalem? Or something else?



    I don't claim that I have the details.. but I guess it's the spot where the mosque was built.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #25 - January 18, 2010, 10:51 PM

    @debunker - you're placing too much emphasis on this oneness of God issue.  I dont see how that makes you a better or more deserving person, than say a child molester or a granny killer.

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  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #26 - January 18, 2010, 10:54 PM

    I don't claim that I have the details.. but I guess it's the spot where the mosque was built.



    Quote
    Originally, the direction of the Qiblah was toward the Noble Sanctuary (Temple Mount) in Jerusalem (and it is therefore called the First of the Two Qiblahs). At least since Mishnaic times (AD200), Jews face the Temple Mount in Jerusalem while praying. The Mishnah speaks about this in Berakhot (Talmud) chapter 4, Mishnahs 5 and 6 and this practice is even found as early as I Kings 8:35-36.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla


    Quote
    Known in Hebrew as Har HaBayit and known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the Temple Mount is the location of the two ancient Israelite Temples (also known as the Jerusalem Temple) mentioned in the Bible. (First Temple: 957-587 B.C., Second Temple: 515 B.C. - 70 A.D.) These Temples were the place of Israelite centralized worship and national identity. According to Jewish Law, the Temple is the only place where animal sacrifices can be made to God.

    According to Jewish tradition, the location of the Temple was decided by the Biblical King David. He believed the site to be Mount Moriah, where Abraham was stopped by God from sacrificing his son, Isaac, (Genesis 22).

    According to Islamic tradition, Mount Moriah was the place from where the Prophet Mohammed rose to heaven and is the third most holy site, after Mecca and Medina, in Islam. Thus the site is holy to both Jews and Muslims.

    In 637 A.D. the City of Jerusalem was captured by the Saracens, led by Omar ibn al to Khatab. Between 684-691 A.D. the mosque, the Dome of the Rock, know in Arabic as Qubbat As-Sakhrah, was constructed on this site by Caliph Abd-al-Malik ibn Marwan.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/temple-mount


    Quote
    Want to know something interesting? There was no temple there, it was destroyed.

    http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #27 - January 18, 2010, 10:55 PM

    Quote
    Which is why I find it hard to understand how and why God would blame those who find such things compelling reasons to dismiss them as man-made fictions.


    Again, if you honestly think that the creator of the laws of nature can't break them or change them, then it's OK as long as you submit to the creator God.

    Quote
    So do you think that people disbelieve because they don't want to believe?


    Yes. Some of them, not all of them.

    Quote
    Why don't they want to believe?


    Pride/arrogance/stubborness.... some disbelieve out of sincere inability to see the truth.

    Quote
    Are their reasons deserving of torture?


    Eternal damnation? Only pride-based disbelief. and since you brought this up, I'd very much like to discuss with you eternal damnation on a seperate thread in your Exclusive Rooms. I'll support everything with verses.

    Quote
    But if you don't - what happens?


    If you refuse out of pride/arrogance/stubborness, then eternal damnation is the final abode.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #28 - January 18, 2010, 10:57 PM

    Again like BD mentioned, according to Quran Muhammed didn't perform any miracles.. I can show verses if you want.


    according to several stories about Muhammad he did, but of course these could be argued to be legends

    Quote
    In fact, my theory is that the Quan (being the FINAL book) seems to be judging Humanity as a whole. It shows that no matter what God did, those who wanted to believe became believers and those who refused to believe did so regardless.


    Interesting. So there's basicly no chance that I will become a believer even though I very much would like to be persuaded to worship this creation who basicly created me for the fire. Cause of course I wouldn't like my skin destroyed in agony, only to have it put back on and repeat that rehearsal again and again. I wouldn't like to grind my teeth forever and ever... I would like very much to become a believre if there were such a creature who would do this to me or to anyone for that matter.

    Quote
    Examples:
    1- Muslims deviate in each possible way from *pure* worship of God, just like all the people before them, despite the fact that the message of Tawhid is the clearest, most important and most repeated message in the Quran.



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    2- Even when God favored a people (the Israelites) by making them Kings and Prophets in the Promised Land, Israelites always were disobedient. So? Favoring a people or not doesn't help them become believers.


    - so he wasted peoples life by doing an experiment?

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    3- The Quran stated in many verses that this time there are no more miracles. Why? Because people of the old times received miracles and those who didn't want to believe, dismissed them as magic. So, whoever really wants to believe, doesn't need a miracle. Do we NOW need a miracle to believe in God? Early Muslims believed without any miracles and so should everyone else be able to believe without miracles... there's NO excuse for disbelief due to lack of miracles.


    so the god learned from his mistakes? - that's great - a being which can learn from it's mistakes is admirable. Or did he just set up millions of people for a little show for all people who were going to live after ... erhhm let's say ... a fellow from Arabia got the final news. And people who did not hear about this Arab fellow's message should keep on believing in magic and miracles until they properly recieved this message. Alright, sounds fair to me.
  • Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
     Reply #29 - January 18, 2010, 10:58 PM

    @debunker - you're placing too much emphasis on this oneness of God issue.  I dont see how that makes you a better or more deserving person, than say a child molester or a granny killer.


    You're mixing up the rights of men with God...

    Everyone who sins against others will be punished... Even God won't intervene...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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