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 Topic: Comments on Hassan V debunker

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  • Comments on Hassan V debunker
     OP - January 19, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Ok, I know the discussion between them is going to generate some responses from those of us who can't join in, so here is our comment thread.

    Their debate will be here

    I'm quite looking forward to reading this discussion.  dance
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #1 - January 19, 2010, 07:33 PM
    Hmmm? Actually, opening this thread before we have even started, kind of makes me nervous...

    BESIDES, it's NOT a debate... it's only a friendly discussion.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #2 - January 19, 2010, 07:34 PM
    No, don't worry about it.  There's always a comments thread opened when a debate thread is started.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #3 - January 19, 2010, 10:22 PM
    So who's bringing the refreshments?
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #4 - January 19, 2010, 10:30 PM
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #5 - January 19, 2010, 10:33 PM
    *gaarghhh*
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #6 - January 19, 2010, 10:49 PM
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #7 - January 20, 2010, 12:23 AM
    Looks like Hassan might have an advantage already. He attempted to lull Debunker into a false sense of security with the old turkish carpet and embroidered pillow tactic, but Debunker countered with the "this is more of a discussion rather than a debate" defense. But now Debunker mistakingly committed himself to a lengthy opening post and has given himself a deadline. It will be difficult for Debunker not to open himself up now.

     grin12
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #8 - January 20, 2010, 09:13 PM
    I find this "pride based disobedience" concept that Debunker talks about as totally nonsensical and basically little more than a very bad attempt to smear and guilt trip. It just follows the assumption that concepts of "pride" and "disobedience" are inherently obvious and naturally wrong. Why? There is nothing inherently wrong about disobedience or pride. There is no merit in one being obedient. Especially to an imaginary being!

    You are just sitting there are presuming we agree with your Islamically-derived belief in disobedience and pride when we might not at all agree with that. You need to first prove that disobedience and pride are inherently evil first, before going down that line of reasoning based on false premises. Of course you can't 'prove' it because disobedience and pride are purely relative and highly subjective concepts.

    Overall a very immature and irrational argument.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #9 - January 20, 2010, 09:34 PM
    I thought its as well a reasoned argument as possible within the constraints of Islam, in fact it would be considered a heretical stance by most muslims.  I find it interesting as it  was where I stood before I began to doubt Islam.

    It would not surprise me at all if 5 years from now if Debunker apostated  but kept his username in order to debunk Islam instead.
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #10 - January 20, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 20, 2010, 09:34 PM
    I thought its as well a reasoned argument as possible within the constraints of Islam, in fact it would be considered a heretical stance by most muslims.  I find it interesting as it  was where I stood before I began to doubt Islam.

    It would not surprise me at all if 5 years from now if Debunker apostated  but kept his username in order to debunk Islam.


    I have to agree with you IsLame. It actually makes me quite sad to see an intelligent person having to struggle to justify an important pillar of faith. It is even sadder to think that in doing so, he may have the dreaded takfir pronounced upon him by the orthodox majority muslim community.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #11 - January 20, 2010, 09:40 PM
    "Within the constraints of Islam" LOL

    That's my point, when we're not arguing about specifics of Islam, but generalities about the nature of god or concepts like disobedience or whatever then you automatically fail because we don't accept the constraints of Islam on these matter. Why would a musulman bring forth issues like "disobedience" to Allah to a largely agnostic/atheist audience? It's like a Hindu assuming the Muslim audience believes in reincarnation and launching an assault against monotheism from that premise. Hence why I deemed it rather immature and pointless.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #12 - January 20, 2010, 09:52 PM
    @ Iblis

    Actually I was addressing Hassan. If I remember correctly, in one of his videos, he explained that one of the main reasons that made him lose faith is the fact that Hell doesn't make any sense as an infinitely majestic and infinitely merciful God won't care about worship nor would He care to put people in Hell.

    So yes, I have to start my discussion with him based on the premise of the infinite Creator God.

    As for my views being heretical, i hope Hassan who is a student of both religion and Arabic would comment on that and show me how my views are heretical (assuming he believes the same as you do)

    @ Islame: aposate in 5 years? No way.. I've already been there (DEISM).. there's no going back.   
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #13 - January 20, 2010, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 20, 2010, 09:40 PM
    "Within the constraints of Islam" LOL

    That's my point, when we're not arguing about specifics of Islam, but generalities about the nature of god or concepts like disobedience or whatever then you automatically fail because we don't accept the constraints of Islam on these matter. Why would a musulman bring forth issues like "disobedience" to Allah to a largely agnostic/atheist audience? It's like a Hindu assuming the Muslim audience believes in reincarnation and launching an assault against monotheism from that premise. Hence why I deemed it rather immature and pointless.

    I think we are seeing his intentions differently.  The way I saw it was that he was playing out his most difficult issues in Islam in his own head, and thats why he raised them here.  Credit to him, as it would have been all to easy to focus on nonsensical issues, and focus on the good he sees in Islam to make it easier for himself.
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #14 - January 20, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 09:52 PM
    @ Islame: aposate in 5 years? No way.. I've already been there (DEISM).. there's no going back.   

    Never close your mind off, always keep it free from artifical constraints.  Lifes far more richer that way Wink

    What mafe you turn to deism and then leave it?  How long ago was that?
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #15 - January 20, 2010, 10:07 PM
    Was a bit impressed in the beginning. Done the research for his argument or discussion point. But this still assumes that God exists, and that the Quran is without fault. I'm not sure how you prove God, at this stage the closest I get is that you feel it in your chest. And he is there for the things we don't understand. But the God of the Gaps argument is a major problem, in the past the gaps were large due to us understanding less of the natural world, as we progress, and learn more, the gaps shrink, Gods part in the natural world and in our lives shrinks, and there is nothing that says this trend won't stop. I never knew Evolution could make such a strong case. I really thought Creationism was the truth.

    The second is faith, you feel "it" in your chest. But you can feel a whole lot of things in your chest, doesn't make any of it true. I'm sure there is a psychological explanation to it. Besides faith can be misused, I think it's better to use rational rather than "it feels right".

    Two, which is my biggest issue, the Quran is without fault. It astounds me how you can come to this conclusion, if you read it with a detached mind. Are you really telling me I'm interpreting things wrong? I'm reading it as it is. The lower skies is decked with stars. It doesn't say universe, it uses sky. Samawat. And comets are missiles to keep the Jinn away from listening to God? I mean seriously? Comets can seem to have a life of their own, again, if you see it with those eyes. The problem also is the heavy reliance on Judaism and Christianity. Not to mention that Allah seems to belong with the other Ancient Gods of that region.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #16 - January 20, 2010, 10:11 PM
    you got it sussed Afro
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #17 - January 20, 2010, 10:15 PM
    Sometimes I feel my mind is getting ahead of me. Like the rest of me is still trying to catch up. It hasn't quite gelled in yet, and I question how I know this for a fact or if I've thought through my arguments enough. I worry that I say things just to seem smart, or fit in. I mean it wasn't too long ago I was a praying muslim. Anybody ever felt like this?
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #18 - January 20, 2010, 10:24 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on January 20, 2010, 10:15 PM
    Sometimes I feel my mind is getting ahead of me. Like the rest of me is still trying to catch up. It hasn't quite gelled in yet, and I question how I know this for a fact or if I've thought through my arguments enough. I worry that I say things just to seem smart, or fit in. I mean it wasn't too long ago I was a praying muslim. Anybody ever felt like this?


    Its obvious that you are going feel that why considering the radical change that happened overnight..  Don't try to hurry and don't try to please anyone, just be honest with yourself.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #19 - January 20, 2010, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on January 20, 2010, 10:15 PM
    Sometimes I feel my mind is getting ahead of me. Like the rest of me is still trying to catch up. It hasn't quite gelled in yet, and I question how I know this for a fact or if I've thought through my arguments enough. I worry that I say things just to seem smart, or fit in. I mean it wasn't too long ago I was a praying muslim. Anybody ever felt like this?

    No, but then I left Islam way back and my doubts have only got stronger & stronger with time.  Now the whole thing just seems like one big joke.  

    So much so, that I find it hard to respect anyone who thinks like a muslim, and I am trying so hard to get back to being open-minded.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #20 - January 20, 2010, 10:28 PM
    Thanks Ras Smiley

    Islame, remember when I first joined? You had an open-mind Smiley I was still struggling back then.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #21 - January 20, 2010, 10:31 PM
    Somebody might say but Islam is meant to be seen with modern eyes, because as it says the Quran is a book for all time. But that is a huge problem, because the language is of the 7th century. Which is fine I suppose. But that argument is too simplistic, language is not just simply words, but symbols and objects, they abstract our world and reality. Slavery is slavery. Even saying that the modern day equivalent would be sweat-shops wouldn't come close. Sex slaves maybe. It's not just the words that is of the 7th century, but the ideas and values. Not to mention what they could see and grasp within their own imaginations and reality. The desert, the animals, the jinn and folklore, the witches, the concept of a Prophet. All of this is a world of the 7th Century.

    Even if we switched the Quran and modernized it:

    Heaven will be cities with advanced technologies and cyber sex close to same thing as sex (to use Sam Harris example for the first two)
    Slavery is sweat shops
    Concubines is sex slaves

    It would not change the inherent values behind these words. It would only give regulations. Feed the people of your sweat shop etc. Not give the same wage as you, or let them choose their own employer etc. Heaven for most people would still be about Love and being with families. But those who are poor or negelcted the materials of today's world might be impressed.

    What about the words of how the world works?

    This is my biggest problem. Even if we changed the words the concept of embryology would still not be correct. There are parts missing. And sure it's not meant to be a science book, but then why are these verses there? It is obvious to me at least, they are there to impress the people of that time. To seem as if you know what the people don't know. But what would that look like in today's world? Would adding verses like that even work? Especially when you add the falsification claim of Bring forth a verse like it if you can.  If anything it would work best in today's world where science has advanced to a much higher level. Not only science but more importantly how we research and prove things. It would have made a bigger impact in today's world.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #22 - January 20, 2010, 10:59 PM
    @ Islame

    I left Islam because I couldn't stomach mainly two things: slavery and conquest (Hell never really was an issue for me)... that was during my college years. (I rejected the authority of Bukhari et al when I was in middle school).

    But of course, I never stopped believing in God (the Creator God)... and when I went to the US for graduate studies I stayed a Deist. One day, a nice Jehova couple knocked on my door and they kept visiting me on weekend for 6 months.. I didn't tell them about my being a Deist.. I didn't want to get them any more enthusiastic. They only discussed the NT and whenever I asked them about the OT (the first two thirds of the big book I was reading) they told me the NT is what matters. I *almost* became a JW. There was no violence of any sort.. Jesus was not God... and we were only expected to worship God.. that seemed very nice to me.. sure I couldn't understand the sacrifice thing but if God wanted to sacrifice His best and first creation, Jesus in order to forgive me then whom I to object.. Sure, I always wondered why couldn't He just forgive, they kept mentioing that would be no justice.. I digress... anyway, one day I decided to investigate the OT.. I went only and read about Jehova (Yahweh)... I came across an anti-Bible site and I just couldn't believe what I read.. I thought all of it was lies.. I opened the Bible my JW friends gave me and I was utterly shocked to learn that it was all true! Jehova did ask His "Children" to wipe out entire nations, and gave them the right to enslave anyone outside the promised land in exchange for "peace". Jehova did indeed order Israeites to kill men for working on a Satudrday, cursing or disrespecting a priest... The fact is the first two thirds of the Bible are full of horror stories.

    Interestingly, this shock is what made re-consider the Quran again. Specifically, the fact that almost every prophet was slandered in the OT while the opposite picture was given in the Quran made me wonder: if Muhammed invented the Quran and stole from the Bible, why did he have to clean up the image of other prophets? What's in it for him? If I were an imposter prophet claiming to be a continuation of prophets, I would have confirmed the filth against them to promote my own image.

    This made me re-read the Quran again with neutrality... I read it cover to cover about 10 times.. Until I developed new understanding I never had before... Of course, there are still things I don't understand, but I am perfectly comfortable and happy with the vast majority of verses, so there's really no good reason for me to reject this book again.   
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #23 - January 20, 2010, 11:02 PM
    @ BD

    Appreciating the creation, rather than explaining it, is the message of the Quran.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #24 - January 20, 2010, 11:10 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 10:59 PM
    This made me re-read the Quran again with neutrality... I read it cover to cover about 10 times.. Until I developed new understanding I never had before... Of course, there are still things I don't understand, but I am perfectly comfortable and happy with the vast majority of verses, so there's really no good reason for me to reject this book again.   

    Fair enough - at least you've read it Wink which is more than can be said for most Muslims, who only get as far as reading it in a foreign language
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  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #25 - January 20, 2010, 11:16 PM
    Quote
    Interestingly, this shock is what made re-consider the Quran again. Specifically, the fact that almost every prophet was slandered in the OT while the opposite picture was given in the Quran made me wonder: if Muhammed invented the Quran and stole from the Bible, why did he have to clean up the image of other prophets? What's in it for him? If I were an imposter prophet claiming to be a continuation of prophets, I would have confirmed the filth against them to promote my own image.

     

    Big Daddy Mo merely projected filth onto the whole entire world that didn't follow his message, rather than the prophets of the past - and he declared himself the seal of the prophets, the final messenger, and the culmination of all that came before, and so white washing them made him look better by association, because he was in their line.

    The filth was external - he and his associations were sanitised, and all else was jahil and kuffar and filthy.

    Its not difficult to understand. He really was a crafty fella.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #26 - January 20, 2010, 11:25 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 10:59 PM
    @ Islame

    I left Islam because I couldn't stomach mainly two things: slavery and conquest (Hell never really was an issue for me)... that was during my college years. (I rejected the authority of Bukhari et al when I was in middle school).

    But of course, I never stopped believing in God (the Creator God)... and when I went to the US for graduate studies I stayed a Deist. One day, a nice Jehova couple knocked on my door and they kept visiting me on weekend for 6 months.. I didn't tell them about my being a Deist.. I didn't want to get them any more enthusiastic. They only discussed the NT and whenever I asked them about the OT (the first two thirds of the big book I was reading) they told me the NT is what matters. I *almost* became a JW. There was no violence of any sort.. Jesus was not God... and we were only expected to worship God.. that seemed very nice to me.. sure I couldn't understand the sacrifice thing but if God wanted to sacrifice His best and first creation, Jesus in order to forgive me then whom I to object.. Sure, I always wondered why couldn't He just forgive, they kept mentioing that would be no justice.. I digress... anyway, one day I decided to investigate the OT.. I went only and read about Jehova (Yahweh)... I came across an anti-Bible site and I just couldn't believe what I read.. I thought all of it was lies.. I opened the Bible my JW friends gave me and I was utterly shocked to learn that it was all true! Jehova did ask His "Children" to wipe out entire nations, and gave them the right to enslave anyone outside the promised land in exchange for "peace". Jehova did indeed order Israeites to kill men for working on a Satudrday, cursing or disrespecting a priest... The fact is the first two thirds of the Bible are full of horror stories.

    Interestingly, this shock is what made re-consider the Quran again. Specifically, the fact that almost every prophet was slandered in the OT while the opposite picture was given in the Quran made me wonder: if Muhammed invented the Quran and stole from the Bible, why did he have to clean up the image of other prophets? What's in it for him? If I were an imposter prophet claiming to be a continuation of prophets, I would have confirmed the filth against them to promote my own image.

    This made me re-read the Quran again with neutrality... I read it cover to cover about 10 times.. Until I developed new understanding I never had before... Of course, there are still things I don't understand, but I am perfectly comfortable and happy with the vast majority of verses, so there's really no good reason for me to reject this book again.   


    Salams Debunker

    I find your honesty and open nature both refreshing and a comfort. Is it possible that the sincere nature in which you enquired and investigated your way through the OT, could be the same journey that many of us ex-Muslims took through the Quran?
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #27 - January 20, 2010, 11:26 PM
    Quote from: abuk on January 20, 2010, 11:25 PM
    Salams Debunker

    I find your honesty and open nature both refreshing and a comfort. Is it possible that the sincere nature in which you enquired and investigated your way through the OT, could be the same journey that many of us ex-Muslims took through the Quran?


    +1
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #28 - January 20, 2010, 11:29 PM
    Debunker - your entire post is premised on a number of assumptions and I find the whole thing very unconvincing. It does however also illustrate the futility of such discussions since so much is subjective. Ultimately, you can't prove any of it so there is no reason fir me to believe any of it or even take it seriously. It's like us discussing the purpose of the fairies at the back of my garden.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Comments on Hassan V debunker
     Reply #29 - January 20, 2010, 11:30 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 20, 2010, 10:59 PM
    Interestingly, this shock is what made re-consider the Quran again. Specifically, the fact that almost every prophet was slandered in the OT while the opposite picture was given in the Quran made me wonder: if Muhammed invented the Quran and stole from the Bible, why did he have to clean up the image of other prophets? What's in it for him? If I were an imposter prophet claiming to be a continuation of prophets, I would have confirmed the filth against them to promote my own image.



    You make a very valid point, and it is interesting that the pure motive of the Prophet lead you back into Islam. Did you consider that there may have been other motives the Prophet may have had for not slandering the previous Prophets?
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