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 Topic: How is rape proved outside Islam?

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  • How is rape proved outside Islam?
     OP - January 26, 2010, 04:14 PM

    In Islam 4 witnesses are needed to prove rape. However outside Islam, such as in the west, if an adult woman (18+) got raped, and there weren't any witnesses or any pictures, etc taken, how would she prove it? Are witnesses needed even outside of Islam?
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #1 - January 26, 2010, 04:17 PM

    DNA in semen (or of the baby) would be a good start

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  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #2 - January 26, 2010, 04:26 PM

    This whole 4 witnesses thing is such bullshit. Who rapes a woman infront of 4 other people?

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #3 - January 26, 2010, 04:28 PM

    For a criminal case a rape charge would need to be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt". So all admissible evidence will be looked at - confessions, alibi, witnesses (including to earlier behaviour), evidence such as DNA, physical condition of the woman etc.

    The victim may also be able to take a civil case - in which she would need to prove it "on the balance of probabilities" that a rape took place.  
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #4 - January 26, 2010, 04:29 PM

    But the DNA won't necessarily prove it was rape, it could be said that it was through consentual sex
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #5 - January 26, 2010, 04:30 PM

    This whole 4 witnesses thing is such bullshit. Who rapes a woman infront of 4 other people?


    I remember a joke that "anyone who actually rapes a woman in front of 4 witnesses should be let off on the basis of not guilty by reason of insanity"


    In reality, the 4 witnesses thing was made up to prevent Aisha being stoned for having an affair.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #6 - January 26, 2010, 04:31 PM

    But the DNA won't necessarily prove it was rape, it could be said that it was through consentual sex

    True - but if a guy said "I wasn't there!" or it was an "obvious" rape and the question was only who was involved.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #7 - January 26, 2010, 04:33 PM

    For a criminal case a rape charge would need to be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt". So all admissible evidence will be looked at - confessions, alibi, witnesses (including to earlier behaviour), evidence such as DNA, physical condition of the woman etc.

    The victim may also be able to take a civil case - in which she would need to prove it "on the balance of probabilities" that a rape took place.  

    Can you give me an example of how this would work? Say a woman was at a train station alone one night and a guy raped her and then walked away, but she remembered his face, and then later she ran into him again. If she brought a case against him how would she prove that she was raped? I'm assuming she can't..
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #8 - January 26, 2010, 04:36 PM

    Quote
    But the DNA won't necessarily prove it was rape, it could be said that it was through consentual sex


    True but if an examination of genitals and thighs may show bruising due to forced sex where the girl tried to resist. Also the man accused might show scratches on his body as the girl tried to fight him.

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #9 - January 26, 2010, 04:38 PM

    Quote
    Also the man accused might show scratches on his body as the girl tried to fight him.

    I hope this doesn't count for anything.. some girls like to scratch during sex even if its consentual
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #10 - January 26, 2010, 04:39 PM

    If I recall correctly, at common law in England, two witnesses were required to convict someone of rape. The reasoning being that back then rape carried a death sentence, so you had to be sure.

    In the US, typically rape can be proven in criminal court by both physical evidence and/or an alleged victim's testimony that the jury finds credible. Physical evidence is not limited to DNA-- it can also be injuries consistent with rape. But a rapist can be convicted on the victim's testimony alone, if the jury finds that testimony to be credible enough to meet the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt). Obviously it's easier to meet that standard with both credible testimony AND physical evidence.

    fuck you
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #11 - January 26, 2010, 04:43 PM

    I hope this doesn't count for anything.. some girls like to scratch during sex even if its consentual


    Yeah true but if the man shows scratches and the girl has bruised thighs and genitals and shes showing signs of psychological trauma, then it's quite obvious.

    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #12 - January 26, 2010, 04:44 PM

    ...

    yep - just to point out that UK law is same as US law now though.  Didn't know about the 2 witnesses requirement.

    For liberated:
    The thing you might have difficulty with is that in theory it is possible in Common Law to have someone jailed for rape on the basis only of the testimony of the woman.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #13 - January 26, 2010, 04:57 PM


    In the UK, if four men stood by and watched as a woman was raped, they would be assumed to be accomplices themselves.


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  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #14 - January 26, 2010, 04:59 PM

    Yeah true but if the man shows scratches and the girl has bruised thighs and genitals and shes showing signs of psychological trauma, then it's quite obvious.

    But the woman could scratch herself....
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #15 - January 26, 2010, 05:02 PM

    in theory it is possible in Common Law to have someone jailed for rape on the basis only of the testimony of the woman.

    That's nuts, then a psycho ex girlfriend of someone who got angry at him for dumping him could bruise herself and then claim to be raped and get the man jailed!

    And also, if a woman meets you and claims to be 18 and you have sex with her, and she turns out to be 13-14, you get jailed even though she told you (and looked) like she was 18!
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #16 - January 26, 2010, 05:16 PM

    But the woman could scratch herself....


    Yeah, all kinds of evidence could be manufactured to frame someone for all kinds of crimes-- but if every crime required more than one witness (or even just one witness) to sustain a conviction, then the criminal justice system would be damn near impotent and people would be getting away with murder, literally, on a regular basis, even when the killer is known through compelling evidence.

    That's nuts, then a psycho ex girlfriend of someone who got angry at him for dumping him could bruise herself and then claim to be raped and get the man jailed!


    Yeah, and anyone who gets threatened, mugged, beaten, etc. without any witnesses around could theoretically make up the whole thing, but if someone couldn't prove it in court without a witness-- then all a criminal has to do to get off scot-free is not assault or rob someone in the presence of other people. Don't you see how this is problematic.

    Quote
    And also, if a woman meets you and claims to be 18 and you have sex with her, and she turns out to be 13-14, you get jailed even though she told you (and looked) like she was 18!


    In many US states yes, but not in the UK. In the UK there is only strict liability (no mens rea, or intent, needed) for sex with a child under 13. I'm opposed to strict liability laws for criminal offenses-- it flies in the face of justice.

    fuck you
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #17 - January 26, 2010, 05:27 PM

    Quote
    Yeah, all kinds of evidence could be manufactured to frame someone for all kinds of crimes-- but if every crime required more than one witness (or even just one witness) to sustain a conviction, then the criminal justice system would be damn near impotent and people would be getting away with murder, literally, on a regular basis, even when the killer is known through compelling evidence.

    I disagree, its not so easy to frame anyone for any other crime. For example if I wanted to frame you for murder, it would be damn near impossible. You would be outside doing something else at the time the murder occured, I would need your fingerprints on the weapon, etc etc etc. Its a lot harder than the woman bruising herself to frame a man..

    Quote
    Yeah, and anyone who gets threatened, mugged, beaten, etc. without any witnesses around could theoretically make up the whole thing, but if someone couldn't prove it in court without a witness-- then all a criminal has to do to get off scot-free is not assault or rob someone in the presence of other people. Don't you see how this is problematic.

    I disagree again. Getting beaten = a lot more injuries than some bruises to your thighs. Getting mugged = proving that you lost something valueable. As for getting threatened I would think you'd need witnesses, without witnesses the police might give a warning to the other guy but they won't arrest him.

    Plus you also have to think about the motivation. A psycho ex g/f can have a lot of motivation getting her boyfriend in trouble by claiming he raped her. Perhaps the guy would pay her a lot of money to get her to take the case back. Can you think of any motivation behind why someone might want to frame someone else by claiming he was robbed or beaten by that person?

    Quote
    In many US states yes, but not in the UK. In the UK there is only strict liability (no mens rea, or intent, needed) for sex with a child under 13. I'm opposed to strict liability laws for criminal offenses-- it flies in the face of justice.

    I don't understand what you mean here. So what's the difference between UK/US laws? If a girl had sex with a guy after telling him she was 18 and turned out to be younger, the guy won't get into any trouble?

    Edit: Btw, I should clarify something, I'm not saying the 4 witness system is a good one by any means. Through that its even easier to frame someone since its easy to pay/convince 4 people who'll pretend to be the witnesses to the rape and then the guy gets jailed.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #18 - January 26, 2010, 09:28 PM

    Stop being such a fucking drama queen liberated, it's getting old.

    Rape claims hardly ever make it to court anyway.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #19 - January 26, 2010, 11:04 PM

    This whole 4 witnesses thing is such bullshit. Who rapes a woman infront of 4 other people?


    Ive heard that it wasnt meant to be four visual witnesses, but four credible men who could testify to the witness' credibility.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #20 - January 26, 2010, 11:10 PM

    Ive heard that it wasnt meant to be four visual witnesses, but four credible men who could testify to the witness' credibility.



    and who decides whether a person-i mean man- is 'credible' enough to tesitfy? even that would be inconvenient as rape is such a sensitive topic. The rapist is often someone the victim already knows and supposedly trusts, in many cases the victim could be too embarressed to admit she was raped to these credible men, in fear of being accused of adultery, and these men could very well be friends/relatives of the rapist who wouldnt question him and accept his crime so easily.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #21 - January 26, 2010, 11:22 PM

    True. I guess it would be someone the community usually regards as truthful and would not be partial to anyone. Obviously how the fuck do they know whether or not the crime actually happened. Needing 4 men to believe you were raped is degrading. I think the whole "credible men" thing is concocted by those who couldnt possibly accept the absurdity of needing 4 men to visually testify to the crime. Either way it fails.

    Also does this come from a hadith or did some scholar come up with the rule?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #22 - January 27, 2010, 12:15 AM

    Ive heard that it wasnt meant to be four visual witnesses, but four credible men who could testify to the witness' credibility.

    That will always be subject to bias.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #23 - January 27, 2010, 07:56 AM

    Dude if a woman says he raped me, even psycho ex girlfriend (lol) and you haven?t touched her, not been near her, no witnesses, obviously no DNA, even the bruises would be scrutinized (what kind of object was she hit with, what angle, could it be self inflicted) and then see if there are any marks on my body. DO I have an alibi for where I was? With all this you are really worried that some girl, some where can make a false accusation about you? :S And that you would go to jail? With no credible proof?

    Besides even in the West there have been cases where the girl has been raped and the suspects let off. Because she was drunk, didn?t remember much, or shit like that.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #24 - January 27, 2010, 08:02 AM

    Stop being such a fucking drama queen liberated, it's getting old.

    Rape claims hardly ever make it to court anyway.

    such a feminazi!!
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #25 - January 27, 2010, 08:04 AM

    Dude if a woman says he raped me, even psycho ex girlfriend (lol) and you haven?t touched her, not been near her, no witnesses, obviously no DNA, even the bruises would be scrutinized (what kind of object was she hit with, what angle, could it be self inflicted) and then see if there are any marks on my body. DO I have an alibi for where I was? With all this you are really worried that some girl, some where can make a false accusation about you? :S And that you would go to jail? With no credible proof?

    Besides even in the West there have been cases where the girl has been raped and the suspects let off. Because she was drunk, didn?t remember much, or shit like that.

    Dude, there have been cases where a woman had consensual sex with a guy and then went on to claim that she was raped. Especially with famous men. Mike Tyson was jailed for a few years when a woman who had sex with him later claimed she was raped, and so was Tupac Shakur. I'm just saying the laws don't give enough protection to the men.
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #26 - January 27, 2010, 10:14 AM

    Ive heard that it wasnt meant to be four visual witnesses, but four credible men who could testify to the witness' credibility.

    Whoever told you was lying hard.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #27 - January 27, 2010, 10:15 AM

    Dude, there have been cases where a woman had consensual sex with a guy and then went on to claim that she was raped. Especially with famous men. Mike Tyson was jailed for a few years when a woman who had sex with him later claimed she was raped, and so was Tupac Shakur. I'm just saying the laws don't give enough protection to the men.

    And your point? And I would not use Tupac or Mikey to make a point. One of them calls women bitches and ho's with every other lyrical genius he utters and Mikey said: "ze only reazson I talk to a woman is to fornicate". Not the best Two case models for men's innocence.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #28 - January 27, 2010, 11:22 AM

    From what I know of the evidence presented at the Tyson trial, I think he probably did it, but if I were on the jury I'm not sure I would agree the prosecution had proven the allegations "beyond a reasonable doubt". I think Mike believed his own story even if it wasn't true.

    fuck you
  • Re: How is rape proved outside Islam?
     Reply #29 - January 27, 2010, 11:43 AM

    @Q-Man, care to elaborate on the evidence? Here's what I found on the wikipedia page:

    Quote
    Desiree Washington claimed on the witness stand that she received a phone call from Tyson at 1:36 am on July 19, 1991 inviting her to a party. Having joined Tyson in his limousine, Washington claimed that Tyson made sexual advances towards her. Upon arriving at his hotel room, she claimed that Tyson pinned her down on his bed and raped her despite her pleas to stop. She afterwards ran out of the room and asked Tyson's chauffeur to drive her back to her hotel. When cross-examined by Fuller, Washington was forced to admit that on several occasions she had the opportunity to leave Tyson's hotel room, but chose not to do so. Fuller also probed Washington's own history of sexually leading men on.


    The bolded points pretty much settle it for me. He made sexual advances towards her in the car, and she still willingly went to the hotel room with him, alone. That most likely means she had full knowledge and consent of what was going to happen.

    Mike tyson is a celebrity. He is not dumb enough to rape a woman especially a beauty contest winner.
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