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 Topic: Integration, what does it mean?

 (Read 14380 times)
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  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #60 - January 31, 2010, 05:53 PM

    Arthur, why the hell are you involved with the EDL?

    Pretty obvious isnt it?  He is protecting Britain from its invasion by foreigners.  Remember there aint no black in the Union Jack If he doesnt stand up for Britain, then what will happen next?  Shariah Law rulings over every part of the country Over react

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  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #61 - January 31, 2010, 06:00 PM

    Quote
    Has it? How has it?

    It is a failing of MC rather than a direct function of it.



    Multiculturalism as a political ideology has done it - if you can't see that, you are blind, or confusing political multiculturalism and identity politics multiculturalism with simple grassroots cosmopolitanism which is a social reality, which takes its own course and lives and breathes itself. Learn to distinguish the two.


    Quote
    The BNP, like other nationalists, advance their notion of reviving 'British (or white) culture'. Their problem isn't multiculturalist policies - their problem is pluralism and other cultures per se. To them, the problem is diversity itself.


    The BNP have gained traction and support precisely because they depict themselves as protecting and preserving a notional pure idea of 'white culture' in the same way that Multiculturalism projects itself as being a politics of protection of 'minority' cultures which tend to being essentialised. Multicultural identity politics only pay lip service to 'diversity' when it is useful as a reason to create grievance - sectarian multiculturalism as has been practised in Britain is about creating boundaries and borders, excluding others, and priveliging group rights over individual rights - the BNP is emulating that process.


    Quote
    And, AGAIN(!) neither do I. I've spent three or four fucking posts explaining that very thing, which is why you're the one with the collosal strawman you utter, utter, twat!

     

    Cool your skin down. You said:

    Quote
    Right-wing culturalism isn't the answer to liberal multi-culturalism. As I said, they both have analogous flaws, they're both divisive. Except the latter is worse.


    When nobody on this thread has suggested 'Right-wing culturalism' as an alternative to political multiculturalism. The arguments have been very subtle, nuanced and layered. And the OP itself certainly can't be equated with 'right wing culturalism' either.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #62 - January 31, 2010, 06:02 PM

    Pretty obvious isnt it?  He is protecting Britain from its invasion by foreigners.  Remember there aint no black in the Union Jack If he doesnt stand up for Britain, then what will happen next?  Shariah Law rulings over every part of the country Over react


    I think Arthur is more gullible and confused, than a typical 'ain't no black in the union jack' sort.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #63 - January 31, 2010, 06:21 PM


    Multiculturalism as a political ideology has done it - if you can't see that, you are blind, or confusing political multiculturalism and identity politics multiculturalism with simple grassroots cosmopolitanism which is a social reality, which takes its own course and lives and breathes itself. Learn to distinguish the two.


    Political multiculturalism, indeed. That hasn't directly oppressed groups of people or created group privilege, which is what is, in principle, against. Can you name any such policies? The government certainly hasn't deliberately supported those things, but the failings of their approach are apparent in being able to deal with them.

    Quote
    The BNP have gained traction and support precisely because they depict themselves as protecting and preserving a notional pure idea of 'white culture' in the same way that Multiculturalism projects itself as being a politics of protection of 'minority' cultures which tend to being essentialised.


    Correct. They're both essentialising discourses.

    Quote
    When nobody on this thread has suggested 'Right-wing culturalism' as an alternative to political multiculturalism. The arguments have been very subtle, nuanced and layered. And the OP itself certainly can't be equated with 'right wing culturalism' either.


    The OP, being an EDL, certainly makes it sound that way. And what would have followed would have been a thread premised on the assumptions.

    On the other hand, the posts haven't been bad contributions, but the wider dimensions are too important not to be drawn out.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #64 - January 31, 2010, 06:25 PM

    Quote
    The government certainly hasn't deliberately supported those things, but the failings of their approach are apparent in being able to deal with them.


    So the governments support for various jamaat-e-islaami and Muslim Brotherhood front organisations under the rubric of multiculturalism and dealing with the Muslim 'community' has not been deliberate?  I have to wonder why you have to ask, because its obvious.

    Quote
    And what would have followed would have been a thread premised on the assumptions.


    Well, it didn't, so your drawing of that binary was redundant.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #65 - January 31, 2010, 06:31 PM

    There is truth in that. Cosmopolitanism is a grassroots reality. Identity politics and divisional policies are not progressive, they end up hurting society. 'Multiculturalism' as a political ideology (in contrast to cosmopolitanism and natural multi-ethnicity which are a simple grassroots reality of life) is not always progressive, in fact, it can be seen to be reactionary and inimical to a truly 'inclusive' society.

    I second that

    Multiculturalism as a political ideology has oppressed micro-minorities, ie: those within minority groups who are oppressed within those groups, for example, gays, Muslim apostates, dissenters, by priveliging communal and group rights over individual rights. It has led to those self appointed leaders of various 'communities' asserting themselves in reactionary ways, for example, as we can see by the agendas of various Islamic Ummah identity politicians over the years. The alternative to this is not this meaningless strawman of 'Right wing culturalists' but treating everybody the same, and to stop exacerbating sectarianism by priveligeing certain 'oppressed' groups over others, as we see happening now.

    Very well said
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #66 - January 31, 2010, 07:03 PM

    So the governments support for various jamaat-e-islaami and Muslim Brotherhood front organisations under the rubric of multiculturalism and dealing with the Muslim 'community' has not been deliberate?  I have to wonder why you have to ask, because its obvious.


    What has that got to do with oppressing gays and apostates etc.? That's not a deliberate government policy, is it? Failings to deal properly with those things, to the extent they exist, is the result of flaw of policy and approach.

    Quote
    Well, it didn't, so your drawing of that binary was redundant.


    You suggested that I think that criticism of MC is 'bad'.

    Typically it is of such a binary kind, even here sometimes - but not necessarily, as I subsequently pointed out. The problem was that you misconstrued that as me promoting that binary opposition.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #67 - January 31, 2010, 07:32 PM

    Quote
    What has that got to do with oppressing gays and apostates etc.? That's not a deliberate government policy, is it? Failings to deal properly with those things, to the extent they exist, is the result of flaw of policy and approach.


    Yes - when this is self-evident and the government continues on its course, the government becomes culpable.

    Quote
    Typically it is of such a binary kind, even here sometimes - but not necessarily, as I subsequently pointed out. The problem was that you misconstrued that as me promoting that binary opposition.


    Oh wow yeah, sure.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #68 - January 31, 2010, 08:14 PM

    Yes - when this is self-evident and the government continues on its course, the government becomes culpable.


    The government is very much culpable for the failings of its policies. They can be considered responsible for many more things over the past decade or so too.

    Quote
    Oh wow yeah, sure.


    Yeah, seriously.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #69 - January 31, 2010, 08:26 PM

    Quote
    The government is very much culpable for the failings of its policies.


    Thank you.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #70 - January 31, 2010, 10:14 PM

    Guys I enjoy your posts but you're being too theoretical and abstract. So for instance instead of arguing about the nature of government policies (like whether or not they ignored the minorities within the minority), why not just give an example of such policies or an example of their effects  to back up your claim.

    Also (and this is directed more at panoptic than Billy), why does every thread you get involved with have to end up as a I-win-you-lose kinda debate  Smiley
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #71 - January 31, 2010, 11:14 PM

    Because he's a typical Communist, and like Muslims believe Islam is inherently superior to all other belief systems, Communists believe Marxism is automatically superior and the best way-so that's why he needs to insult Billy and go into swearing/aggressive debating

    As for Islame, man it's totally lame that you keep pointing out Arthur being with the EDL and even lamer that you keep taking the mick/insinuating that he's an ignorant knuckle-dragging racist. He's already shown that he's a decent and open-minded guy and doesn't fit in with your perception of EDL members. Even Billy pointed out that he's a "sensitive" guy,  and I think he only shows decent behaivour on this forum, you on the other hand as a long standing member have a responsibility to show some maturity and set an example, yet all you do is scorn out of hatred-you are also copying Jack Torrance, and God knows what he's like.

    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #72 - January 31, 2010, 11:19 PM

    Because he's a typical Communist, and like Muslims believe Islam is inherently superior to all other belief systems, Communists believe Marxism is automatically superior and the best way-so that's why he needs to insult Billy and go into swearing/aggressive debating

    As for Islame, man it's totally lame that you keep pointing out Arthur being with the EDL and even lamer that you keep taking the mick/insinuating that he's an ignorant knuckle-dragging racist. He's already shown that he's a decent and open-minded guy and doesn't fit in with your perception of EDL members. Even Billy pointed out that he's a "sensitive" guy,  and I think he only shows decent behaivour on this forum, you on the other hand as a long standing member have a responsibility to show some maturity and set an example, yet all you do is scorn out of hatred-you are also copying Jack Torrance, and God knows what he's like.

    Sorry, but call me narow-minded, but I would say the same to any Nazi/Taleban sympathiser too.  Anyone that belongs to an organisation like EDL is dirt as far as I am concerned.  Full stop. 

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  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #73 - January 31, 2010, 11:20 PM

    Because he's a typical Communist, and like Muslims believe Islam is inherently superior to all other belief systems, Communists believe Marxism is automatically superior and the best way-so that's why he needs to insult Billy and go into swearing/aggressive debating

    As for Islame, man it's totally lame that you keep pointing out Arthur being with the EDL and even lamer that you keep taking the mick/insinuating that he's an ignorant knuckle-dragging racist. He's already shown that he's a decent and open-minded guy and doesn't fit in with your perception of EDL members. Even Billy pointed out that he's a "sensitive" guy,  and I think he only shows decent behaivour on this forum, you on the other hand as a long standing member have a responsibility to show some maturity and set an example, yet all you do is scorn out of hatred-you are also copying Jack Torrance, and God knows what he's like.


    And what makes you such an expert, "Mr. I've- got- 40- posts- to- my- name"?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #74 - January 31, 2010, 11:37 PM

    Sorry, but call me narow-minded, but I would say the same to any Nazi/Taleban sympathiser too.  Anyone that belongs to an organisation like EDL is dirt as far as I am concerned.  Full stop. 


    Again, as subtle as a whale, comparing a group of misguided misfits like the EDL to Nazis or the Taliban-I will call you narrow minded, but also, it troubles me that someone who seems as balanced as you usually do could also be so closed-minded and callous on some issues. The difference between Nazis and the EDL is that Nazism is a strict ideology of hate while the EDL is something like an old firm that marches in towns and gets a bit too sauced, also, there are violent people in the organisation and some racist idiots, but by and large it is non-ideological. They claim to oppose Islamism and I think many are sincere about the "threat"-whether it exists or not and whether they over-react or not is debateable but calling human beings dirt on the basis of membership or association is pretty low down. Such hostile thinking has never been positive-and yes, I would include this to all non-violent political/pressure organisations, whether we mean the BNP, Chaudary's group, Socialist Workers Party or the EDL.


    And what makes you such an expert, "Mr. I've- got- 40- posts- to- my- name"?


    Expert on what? You didn't ask a specific question, rather a playground-esque: "I know you are but what am I?" type question that is more befitting for a 5 year old rather than an adult. I didn't claim to be an expert on anything, I only wrote what I thought about Communists why of thinking, Islamic/Abrahamic way of thinking and Islame's treatment of Arthur, none of these are areas of science in which one needs to be an expert to address something

    Also, I like how as soon as I wrote something remotely against one of your "friends" you jump to attack mode without perhaps addressing what I said or correcting me, very playground-like. Plus, I doubt a small number of posts on an insignificant forum would negate my intelligence or character, if your forum is this important to you then I think you need a break.

    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #75 - January 31, 2010, 11:40 PM

    JohnMuslim does have a point. There is no need to demonize them to the point of comparing them to Nazis or the Taliban. Sure they are essentially a splinter off far right white nationalist groups, but they are still simple minded hooligans at the end of the day. And they do serve a purpose in letting some vent their frustrations, and venting is better than not. Besides, I would love to see them beat the shit out of the HizbuTahrir. Both are far-right street gangs anyways.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #76 - January 31, 2010, 11:54 PM

    Thank you Iblis, I am glad someone here can appreciate a balanced approach

    Perhaps I am too old fashioned with my hate the sin, love the sinner approach, but I often try to see through the associations and company someone might keep to the individual inside. I also try and look at the social issues surrounding such people in what I call "misguiding" organisations, the EDL seems to attract working class men and they seem to come from areas up north with little oppurtunities, and with an almost non-caring government the community tensions do often push people to make stupid mistakes. Each individual is responsible for their actions, but as humans we are prone to misjudgements and to rash decisions based on emotions rather than logic, it is a flaw but also a flaw we all suffer from. I have met EDL members, BNP members even members of Islamist mosques and organisations such as Chaudary's, they all have a lot in common. There are many sad and lonely faces trying to fit in, people who don't belong in such silly clubs. But they also all come from these working class areas that have been neglected, white, asian and other areas where people live doors away but worlds away at the same time...sometimes it is expected of them to hate each other. But many of the individuals are good people, with the wrong approach or who blame the wrong person, closing our minds and hearts to them as extremists is defeatist in nature and can only serve to destroy our societies, as long as the  person is non-violent we should be able to interact with them, empathise and perhaps help them. Or we burn the bridges and leave whole communities to rot-I prefer the first option and that's why I find people like Islame, who are otherwise intelligent and capable human beings, I find them more troubling than those who join such organisations, because at least we can find reasons for these misguided people, but attitudes like Islame's strike me as completely irrational and inhuman

    Anyway, thank you for seeing my point, whether you agree or not I commend your open-mindedness, a rare but beautiful and immeasurably valuable quality.

    I hear what you're saying. You're spinning my head around.
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #77 - February 01, 2010, 02:49 AM

    Because he's a typical Communist, and like Muslims believe Islam is inherently superior to all other belief systems, Communists believe Marxism is automatically superior and the best way-so that's why he needs to insult Billy and go into swearing/aggressive debating


    lulz

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #78 - February 01, 2010, 03:09 AM

    Even Billy pointed out that he's a "sensitive" guy,  and I think he only shows decent behaivour on this forum, you on the other hand as a long standing member have a responsibility to show some maturity and set an example, yet all you do is scorn out of hatred-you are also copying Jack Torrance, and God knows what he's like.



    I understand why IsLame feels the way he does. If he feels viscerally about the EDL, I don't think that reflects badly on him at all. Good for him.

    All I say about Arthur is that from his interactions here he just seems like a naive person, rather than an ideologically commited extreme nationalist type. On other forums, and in real life, he could be different, and he is simply moderating his rhetoric for this forum. Who knows. In that case, I would be wrong. Nevertheless, he belongs to an organisation that is recklessly stupid in its approach, and is literalist in its understanding of what is going on in society. He never responds to these points. The EDL are timewasters.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #79 - February 01, 2010, 03:31 AM

    They claim to oppose Islamism and I think many are sincere about the "threat"-whether it exists or not and whether they over-react or not is debateable


    Here is what would be effective as a method of direct action against Islamists and Islamic extremists in the UK:

    (a) Counter-demonstration against targetted groups and meetings - al Muhajiroun and their reincarnations, Hizb ut Tahrir, and others, whenever and wherever they hold public meetings or demonstrations. By as wide a coalition as possible - non Muslims and Muslims.

    (b) Public debate and refutation of Islamists, both of the most extreme kind, and of the 'less extreme' MCB kind, especially regarding the issue of sharia in all its manifestations. The kind of thing that Maryam Namazie and the One Law for All campaign currently does, but the more who take this on board, the better.

    (c) An organised lobby of concerned citizens of all backgrounds who collectively work to contact politicians and respond to the media and challenge the presumptions and assertions of the Maududi / Qutb activists in our society, and to repudiate the Ummah identity-politics that manifests itself in different ways in politics and media and journalism. This is the nitty gritty work of sending letters, e-mails, drafting manifestos, doing research, challenging Islamists online, learning the specificities and details of this ideology and its proponents in British society, and exposing them and their ideas to the public and influential people in society.

    (d) Focussing most acutely on issues like womens rights, the apologia for jihadism, and the rights of Muslim apostates, and raising these issues in the media, through MPs, and in wider society. No quarter must be allowed to the jihadis. Monitoring them across the country, in local government, their apologists and soft-soapers, high-lighting their entryist tactics.

    (e) Challenging Islamic extremism and radicalisation and jihadism on British university campuses, a very real problem.

    So, these are just some of forms of direct action that can be taken. My gut instinct is that the EDL is a literalist response to the obscenity of a couple of decades of open outrage of the most vile Islamic extremist rhetoric in our society that culminated in the abuse spat at soldiers during a parade by Anjum Chaudhry and his crew. I think it may be harsh to tar them with the brush of racism or nazism - but I do believe they are naive in the extreme, and are either on the verge of being, or already have been infiltrated by the far-right, including white supremacists, extreme nationalist NF types.

    Ultimately their actions in not restricting their direct action to counter-demonstrations against specific Islamist extremist groups marks them down as reckless and agitators themselves. To be most charitable, I would say they are hopelessly naive and literalist and do not have clear eyes and clear minds about the issues. At the worst, they are about to implode and are running a severe risk of becoming a vessel for far-right extremists, and their presence on the streets makes matters worse. Naievity is at the core of their decent spokesmen like Arthur. For someone whose posts are intelligent and concerned, his naievity is very very worrying.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Integration, what does it mean?
     Reply #80 - February 01, 2010, 03:36 AM

    But many of the individuals are good people, with the wrong approach or who blame the wrong person, closing our minds and hearts to them as extremists is defeatist in nature and can only serve to destroy our societies, as long as the  person is non-violent we should be able to interact with them, empathise and perhaps help them. Or we burn the bridges and leave whole communities to rot


    There is alot of truth in this. I don't think that all those who vote BNP are dyed in the wool nazis. I don't think that all foaming-at-the-mouth Muslim extremists are beyond reason or redemption either. There are ideologies and processes and circumstances at play here that can be challenged. Without that space and possibility, there is no hope for change and betterment in our society.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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