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 Topic: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey

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  • Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     OP - January 30, 2010, 10:35 PM

    This is from the movie Serious Man, directed by the Cohen Brothers.

    L'olam ha-ba The world to come. Not heaven. Not what the gentiles think of as afterlife.


    To me this sounds very similar to the arabic word Alam, which means world.

    Nor is it the eretz zavat chalav ood'vash the land flowing with milk and honey. For we are not promised a personal reward.

    L'olam ha-ba is in the bosom of Abraham.


    Holy shit. This is too weird to be a coincidence. Did anybody else know about the similarities?


    Quran 47:15 Shakir
    (15) A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.


    Source:
    A Serious Man script, page 92:

    http://www.coenbrothers.net/scripts/aseriousman.pdf
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #1 - January 31, 2010, 12:00 AM

    http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm


    Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

       
    ? Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
    ? The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
    ? Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
    ? Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief

    Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #2 - January 31, 2010, 12:06 AM

    http://www.balashon.com/2007/09/dvash.html

    This article discussing the discovery has this quote about the Hebrew word d'vash דבש:

        While the term "honey" (dvash in Hebrew) appears 55 times in the Bible, it refers to date or fig honey in all but two references: Judges 14:8-9, when Samson took honey from the lion's carcass, and I Samuel 14:27, when Jonathan dipped his rod in a honeycomb during a battle and his countenance brightened.

    Sarna has a similar note in his commentary on Shmot 3:8 -


        Honey in the Bible (Heb. devash) is predominantly the thick, sweet syrup produced from dates and known to the Arabs as dibs. Apiculture seems to have been unknown in Palestine; the few explicit references in the Bible to bees' honey pertain to the wild variety. While the date itself is never mentioned, the inclusion of honey among the seven characteristic products of the land listed in Deuteronomy 8:8 indicates that, like all the others, it too derives from the soil.

    I happened to take out a book from the local library that discusses this issue in detail: Fruit Trees in the Bible and Talmudic Literature, by Yehuda Feliks (Rubin Mass, 1994). The chapter on dvash is in Hebrew, and I can't quote the entire thing here, but I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the subject. I will summarize a few points he brings up:

        * The phrase ארץ זבת חלב ודבש ("land flowing with milk and honey") in the Torah is clearly referring to honey from fruit trees, as it is praising the agricultural bounty of the land.
        * However, in Yeshayahu 7:22, when it mentions כי חמאה ודבש יאכל כל הנותר בקרב הארץ "Everyone who is left in the land shall feed on curds and honey", it is a parody of the Torah verses. For here, the prophet is describing a time when the land is desolate - and therefore the bees can proliferate. (The milk for the curds will also be widely available, because the cows and sheep will be able to graze on the previously tended croplands).
        * Bee honey is not seen as a sign of blessing for the land, even though it is seen as fortunate to find it (as in the story of Yonatan mentioned above). Yaakov also probably sent bee honey to Yosef (Bereshit 43:11), because it mentions מעט דבש - "a small amount of honey", and bee honey would have been hard to obtain.
        * Many sources where the honey is mentioned as coming from rocks (Devarim 32:13, Tehilim 81:17) it is likely referring to fig honey, as figs (unlike dates) grow in rocky terrain.
        * Although the rabbis generally identify the biblical dvash with dates (Sifrei Devarim 297, Mechilta D'Rashbi 13:5), when they used the word dvash themselves, they were referring to bee honey. For example, the Yerushalmi (Bikkurim 1:3) interprets the biblical word: "And dvash - this is dates. Could it be actual dvash (e.g. bee honey)?" They answer that since the dvash in the verse is obligated in tithes, it cannot be referring to bee honey, but rather date honey. We also see that if someone makes an oath that they will not eat dvash, they are allowed to eat date honey (Nedarim 6:9)

    While the article was written before the recent discovery (and sadly Prof. Feliks passed away last year, and did not merit to review it), I don't think the discovery radically challenges anything in the article. Certainly bee honey was considered a rare treat, and there would have been efforts to make the product more widely available. And by Talmudic times, these efforts had succeeded so well, that bee honey became the dominant meaning of "dvash".

    But the meaning of eretz zavat chalav u'dvash still refers to the agriculture of the Land of Israel, particularly, as Feliks points out, in comparison to that of Egypt, whose dates were much dryer and did not easily produce honey.
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #3 - January 31, 2010, 12:08 AM

    More on the land of milk and honey meaning.

    http://www.egalitarianminyan.org/AlsDvar.html
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #4 - January 31, 2010, 12:19 AM

    Hmm, the place of hell in Old Testament refers to an actual location-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna


        
    Hinnom Valley outside Jerusalem

         In what is known as the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns His disciples about harboring anger and malice toward another person, and openly condemning them:

        "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22)

          Although the Greek word Gehenna is translated "hell" in this and other passages (Matthew 23:33, Mark 9:43, etc.), its literal meaning is Valley of Hinnom (Strong's Concordance Number #G1067).

          The valley of Hinnom is a deep, narrow ravine on the south end of Jerusalem. Anciently, it was in this valley that idolatrous Israelites worshipped the pagan gods Moloch and Baal through the abominable sacrificial practice of burning their own children alive (the Bible call this practice "passing through the fire" - See 2Kings 16:3, 23:10; 2Chronicles 28:3, Jeremiah 7:31).

            After the return of the Jews from captivity, the valley was held in such abhorrence that it was made the place to throw all the dead carcasses and filth of the city, and was frequently the place of public executions. The valley, therefore, became extremely offensive; the sight was terrific; the air polluted with the foul spell of putrefying animal and human flesh; and to preserve it in any manner pure, it was necessary to keep fires continually burning there (also known as using unquenched or unquenchable fire).

           Jesus used the well-known fires in the valley of Hinnom as an analogy of the fire (lake of fire) to be used by God to kill forever (the punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death, NOT eternal torture!) those who refuse to repent of hatred, anger and other sins.

            Some commentaries have suggested that Judas, after he betrayed Jesus, used a tree near a precipice over the valley of Hinnom from which to hang himself.

    http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/picture-of-the-real-hell.html
    Biblical References: Matthew 5 (KJV Bible)
    Sources Used: Easton's Bible Dictionary; Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible; Adam Clark's Commentary on the Entire Bible; Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #5 - January 31, 2010, 12:21 AM

    So it seems this place of rivers with milk and honey also was a real place, a geographical one.

    Do muslims say, Jews altered their scriptures, and removed hell and heaven from their books? Or did Mo misunderstand heaven and hell? Hell seems to have been mistranslated in the New Testament. I think when Jesus spoke of Gehenna he was speaking of the valley itself.

    FUCKING ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS, why make it so complicated!!
  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #6 - January 31, 2010, 01:55 AM

    olam is related to alam, ayin lam/lamed mem/meem. arabic and hebrew share many similarities.

    baruch ata adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam
    barak anta rabb ilahina malik al-alam

    and on and on and on...

    very interesting bit about the milk and honey tho. i enjoyed "a serious man", you?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #7 - January 31, 2010, 02:28 AM

    olam is related to alam, ayin lam/lamed mem/meem. arabic and hebrew share many similarities.

    baruch ata adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam
    barak anta rabb ilahina malik al-alam

    and on and on and on...

    very interesting bit about the milk and honey tho. i enjoyed "a serious man", you?


    Not really. I didn't get it. Maybe not supposed to get it. Maybe the point is that we can never really know. And there is no deeper mystery, just random shit happening and us trying to figure it out.

    Awais, do you speak hebrew?

    Totally unrelated but I love this bit from Dashti's book (http://ali-dashti-23-years.tripod.com/)

    Omayya b. Abi's-Salt, a contemporary of Mohammad and a member of the Thaqif tribe at Ta'ef, was a particularly renowned hanif and advocate of monotheism.

    He (Mohammed) made frequent journeys to Syria, where he spent much time in conversation with Christian monks and Jewish men of learning. It was there that he heard news of Mohammad's emergence. Although the two are said to have had a meeting, he did not become a Moslem. After his return to Ta'ef, he is reported to have told one of his friends, "I know more about the books and traditions of the other religions than Mohammad does. I also know the Aramaic and Hebrew languages. So I would have a better right to prophethood." According to Bokhari,16 Mohammad said that "Omayya b. Abi's-Salt came near to becoming a Moslem."

    I found this whilst googling Omayya b. Abi's-Salt

    http://www.archive.org/stream/newresearchesint00hirs/newresearchesint00hirs_djvu.txt
  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #8 - January 31, 2010, 11:11 AM

    I enjoyed it, especially because it was weird Smiley.

    I can read and write, and understand a little bit, a little less than my poor understanding of Arabic Cheesy.

    Cool hadith. Peep this one http://books.google.com/books?id=_nImTioI7ygC&pg=PA474&dq=%22rabbi+of+the+ummah%22&ei=iFZlS4SONKXsNZKg_JsO&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22rabbi%20of%20the%20ummah%22&f=false

    Zaid bin Thabit is "the rabbi of the ummah" Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #9 - January 31, 2010, 11:38 AM

     mysmilie_977

    How is that sira any different from Guillaume's?

    I can't get it anymore, seems to be out of print.

    http://www.iranbooks.net/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=11611&CLSN_1361=12649381381361778b7b657097106691
  • Re: Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #10 - January 31, 2010, 12:18 PM

    I think when Jesus spoke of Gehenna he was speaking of the valley itself.

    Exactly! It was always my impression that the scripture actually refers to a dump outside Jerusalem.

    This is what wiki says:
    Initially the site where followers of Ba'al sacrificed their children by fire to the god Molech, the valley later became the common wasteyard for all the refuse of Jerusalem. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were cast and, according to legend, consumed by a constant fire.

  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #11 - January 31, 2010, 12:27 PM

    Exactly! It was always my impression that the scripture actually refers to a dump outside Jerusalem.

    This is what wiki says:
    Initially the site where followers of Ba'al sacrificed their children by fire to the god Molech, the valley later became the common wasteyard for all the refuse of Jerusalem. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were cast and, according to legend, consumed by a constant fire.




    It is a bit confusing. This is from a religious site:

    Gan Eden and Gehinnom

    The place of spiritual reward for the righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of spiritual perfection. Specific descriptions of it vary widely from one source to another. One source says that the peace that one feels when one experiences Shabbat properly is merely one-sixtieth of the pleasure of the afterlife. Other sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a sunny day. Ultimately, though, the living can no more understand the nature of this place than the blind can understand color.

    Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

    Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.

    This 12-month limit is repeated in many places in the Talmud, and it is connected to the mourning cycles and the recitation of Kaddish.

    http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
  • Re: Did Mo misunderstand and ripoff the Jewish land of milk and honey
     Reply #12 - January 31, 2010, 12:32 PM

    More info on it here:

    From GeHinnom to Hell: An Etymological and Conceptual History

    http://exploratorius.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/from-gehinnom-to-hell1.pdf
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